Forum:Where will we go?

Forums: Index > The World that Never was > Where will we go?

KrytenKoro - "Space Corp Directive 195—In an emergency power situation, a hologrammatic crew member must lay down his life in order that the living crew members might survive."  "Yes, but Rimmer Directive 271 states just as clearly: 'No chance, you metal bastard.'" TALK - Okay, this is crunch time people. We'll do this in two parts. We've all said our bit before, so it's decision time. Also, we NEED to contact bulbapedia, SmashWiki, and WoWWiki, and figure out how their situation is going.

Move or no?

This vote will be called on midnight of October 29. You are free to change your vote or abstain until then.

Move

1. (ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 14:30, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
2. Erry 14:39, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
3. 14:54, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
4. The17Master 15:01, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
5. --I'm so bored 15:05, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
6. [[ Soxra ]] 17:40, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
7. Ag (Silver) - 47 107.8682 amu ~Crono 19:50, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
8. LapisLazuliScarab21:39, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
9. Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 21:42, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
10. ShardofTruth 21:52, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
11. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.
12. --Random!to a point! 22:40, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
13. BlackSoulBlade 22:48, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
14. ShadowsTwilight
15. Falcos 01:04, October 27, 2010 (UTC)
16. LightoftheDarkness 20:19, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Don't move

1. SeanWheeler 21:03, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
2. LightRoxas 21:09, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
3. User:Master Vantius --Master Vantius 00:08, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Where to?

This vote will be called on midnight of October 29
If you have other options, post them as a header with a link
Please do some research into the options before voting here

ShoutWiki

• 14:55, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
• The17Master 15:14, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
• (ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 14:30, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Wikkii

• Erry 14:39, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
• maggosh 15:58, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
• While I think private hosting is the best option, it's not feasible for a community like this. [[ Soxra ]] 17:41, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
• BlackSoulBlade 22:49, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
• LapisLazuliScarab23:15, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
• Lapidothtill 23:19, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
• Falcos 01:05, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Private hosting

Please provide comments on your proposal

• Chitalian8
• I've already stated what I though would be optimum, through the utilization of MediaWiki. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

Discussion

We could move to another website altogether, like how wow.wikia.com moved to wowwiki.com. --Ag (Silver) - 47 107.8682 amu ~Crono 19:51, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, but do you have any details on how we'd do that?(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 20:49, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

No, I actually don't. I was thinking we could ask them how they did it, if I wasn't shot down. Sorry, that was just a suggestion :/ --Ag (Silver) - 47 107.8682 amu ~Crono 20:59, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Like I said [1] here, we could create our own website.Keyblade0

ShardofTruth Once you believe, truth and lie are quite the same thing. — 21:52, October 26, 2010 (UTC) Okay, we really need a discussion section on this page for constructive ideas and critism. At first I think every active Staff member should post his or her honest opinion on this matter, because they have the most influence (and control) on the wiki. Unspoken subjects will only cause bad blood, which is not needed in this situation. I for myself think that the current standard of the wiki can't be maintained with the coming changes nor be reobtained like Dragon Age wikia is trying to do, simply because essential customization is taken out of our hands. Bluerfn on the other hand thinks different about this, so I hope he will write something on this matter here. I didn't vote on a moving option yet, because I simply don't know which would be best. Were really need validated information on this topic. The reborn WoWWiki is hosted on Curse now, an option that is not open for us I think. We could cooperate with a Square Enix portal or a big role playing portal instead. But I don't have connections to any of them. All I heard from ShoutWiki is that they have only have a few servers which even caused crashs after popular wikis like the Simpsons moved. I don't know if that's true though. This thread of the Naruto wikia has some answers in regards of ShoutWiki. All in all I don't think ShoutWiki ist a good alternative at the moment. @Monobook skin: Will this skin really be available after Oasis is the only option and could we write a stylesheet for it?

KrytenKoro - "It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living." TALK - I'm guessing nobody's contacted shoutwiki or wikkii yet. I have barely any internet access, so I can't do it; one of the other staff will need to. Please ask what would be entailed in moving, and what kind of setup they have (servers, customizing to monaco, etc.) There ARE a few things from Oasis that would be useful, like the features being recoded to be keyboard-only accessible. If we move, we need to have a project dedicated to suggesting helpful css features, and implementing them.

There is still Monobook after Monaco is gone. They are just keeping Monobook. If we move, we won't have Monaco because that is wikia exclusive. SeanWheeler 21:03, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

There has to be a way we can work it out without moving. LightRoxas 21:09, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

While polls (basically votes) don't solve jack, I still want the wiki to be a good place for readers, not for... wait, it's not really good for anyone... KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

Although they are keeping monobook, it will not be the automatic skin, so our pages would still look like shit. Monaco's features can almost certainly be replicated on any css we make.

Also, please don't place comments in the voting section. We've gone back and forth on thus forever without reaching consensus; we all know what each other will say. At this point, we need to be focusing on how we proceed from our discussions.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 22:37, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, 1, ShoutWiki loads like crap. Not good. Wikii or whatever may be fine, but, as Shard said above, it may be lacking that ability to customize. And second, what would happen to kingdomhearts.wikia.com? If we were to delete all articles and images on the site, Wikia would see it was vandalism and revert everything back to life, which, would, in effect, create two Kingdom Hearts wikis, and as mentioned before in another thread by Kryten, Google and other search engines will tend to side with Wikia and Wikipedia. That solves nothing. What the hell are we going to do? If we are voting, wouldn't it be better to give the staff the ability to vote twice, thus doubling thier power? Two votes for ShoutWiki is better than one. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

We wouldn't delete anything. This wiki would still exist, and it would still be open for anyone to edit. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 22:49, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

To clarify, google will side with wikia originally, but as we continue to edit at the new address, and this one continues to stagnate, we will begin getting top billing again. Also, I think Shard was talking about Oasis lacking the ability to customize, since wikkii lets you do whatever you want to your wikis, for free.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 23:12, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly my point. Even if we all leave, a whole new batch of users will take over. Eventually, they will adopt an order that will keep this place running, so, in other words, they will be on par with us... if we move. oh, and could a staff member sticky this thread, please? Oh, and Kryten, can you define "whatever you want", please. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

Unlikely. We are the ones who keep the wiki running so fast - if the current community leaves, it is highly unlikely that anyone who moves in will be anywhere near as driven as us. After all, if they were such hard workers, they'd be here already, wouldn't they?(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 23:35, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

wikkii: [2], [3], [4], [5].

I am seeing a significant problem in interwiki linking. This could be solved in several ways, if wikkii remained unwilling to add the entries to the interwiki database (don't know why they wouldn't, though) -

• Create a Template:w that replaced the [[wikipedia:X|X]] with {{w|X}}, and design a bot with a task being to add that everywhere.
• Do the same without a bot.
• Replace all the interwiki links with direct html links, with or without a bot.

I'd much prefer that they edit the interwiki database, though, since that seems much, much quicker.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 23:35, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Eh. Reading through some of their tech support forums (granted, they are a year old), it is starting to look like wikkii might be lacking quite a few features that we require simply to function as we do now. We really need a staff member to contact them and see what they have working. Specifically, remember to ask about favicon, interwiki linking, checkuser, allowing edits from ips and allowing editors to register, uploading images, uploading .ogg, .gif, .png, full wiki backups, namespaces, etc. This is beginning to look far inferior to anything could put up ourselves, despite what they advertise.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 23:35, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Followup: It seems that most of these features can be reenabled if we upgrade to Advanced Hosting. (Rules) We would need someone code literate to handle things, though, and we'd have to wait until we'd been there for a month to upgrade.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 23:39, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

One question about Shoutwiki and Wikii, will our editcounts be reset? I hope this doesn't make me seem like a person that cares too much about editcount, but I'm still curious about it. Chitalian8

@Inexistent: Well, that's certainly a risk. We are basically assuming that as a community that's been established we'd do a better job at adding content, staying up to date, etc, and that we'd stand above anyone who takes over here. It's possible that won't be the case, but it'll still be easier for us to do our business somewhere else. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 23:27, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

You guys understand that if we do move, we'll have to delete this wiki, or else erase all of its content? Because if you just leave it here to gather dust, it will start to spoil. As in, people will come in and try to take control. There will be no one to moniter vandalism, all that stuff. This is still the Kingdom hearts Wiki representing Wikia. If we're leaving, then we should either delete this wiki and all of its content or appoint new administrators who are willing to stay behind and won't whine about the new theme that isn't Monaco. Just saying. --LegoAlchemist 01:30, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

But Lego, there's the thing. Wikia will not delete a wiki unless it was abandoned at its birth. And, as I mentioned above, complete and total deletion would be undone. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

We can't delete the wiki. At any rate, the staff will have to maintain some presence for a period of time, to keep vandalism down and to keep an eye on new editors. If people want to continue on here despite the move, they can, and we might eventually promote new staff to take over. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 01:36, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

In that case we should probably formally get together a group of people who will stay behind and keep this wiki from going to the dogs. I volunteer--ShadowsTwilight 01:42, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

...Doesn't keeping people here to sync the wikis defeat the purpose of moving to a new wiki, and make it impossible for the new wiki to catch up in the search engines? Yes, it's the Kingdom Hearts wiki representing Wikia, and Wikia made it a shit-hole. Which is why we have a new site, which will be very clearly not a shit-hole.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 02:10, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Point. Although I didn't say anything about keeping them synched or keeping this one up to date. We would still need to be available to editors who want to take over, should the event arise. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 02:14, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT!!!Who said anything about syncing them, i just don't want this wiki to fall to vandalism, i don't care if it gets updated or not--ShadowsTwilight 02:17, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

....why? What's the point of upkeep if it's just going to stagnate in a different manner? Seriously, you guys looked at tfwiki.net when I first mentioned it, right? The original wikia site has stagnated completely, and the edits added are worthless. It's vandalism under another name, basically.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 02:23, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

If you don't want to, that's fine with us--ShadowsTwilight 02:28, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

KingdomKeyDarkside - But then, when all hope had died, and the hour of doom seemed at hand... TALK - a young boy clothed in green appeared as if from nowhere. ~ 04:54, October 27, 2010 (UTC) I haven't voted yet, just because I'm not sure what the best option is. Sure, the new skin is (for lack of a better word) manure, but it just feels wrong leaving before giving the new look a full-on chance. Sure, wikia staff has done bullcrap to accommodate all the complaining users, and it may seem like they don't care, but I still think we need to give them a fair chance with this thing. Give them time to make the new look full-fledged, and then they can start making changes to make it work better. Leaving on November 3rd is just silly, and over-reactive to something that's barely taken place. It's like having worked somewhere for years and then just up and leaving when the office gets re-painted and the computers are replaced with crappy ones, when the only other workplaces have the paint color you like, and you've heard they work better, but the computers are slow as hell and it's impossible to do all the paperwork (coding) they require. It's like preemptively bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki before Pearl Harbor even got attacked. I know most of you are going to disagree with me, and that's fine. Everyone's entitled to an opinion, even if it gets ignored. We should see this through to January 1st, 2011. No more, no less. If nothing's better, fine. We leave. If it's good enough, we stay. please don't start yelling at me...

Dan - Life's no fun without a good scare! ♫ — 13:49, October 27, 2010 (UTC) I agree with KKD, that's why I haven't voted either.

The Inexistent - If the wiki and articles are eternal, surely we users must be the same... eternal. TALK - Face your destruction! I completely agree with you KKD, many of us do. But, we have had the ability to use the new skin for weeks. And I, for one, have been using it, and that is why I completely support the idea of scrapping it right now.

Xalxe Talk! — "Surely you must've known this was going to happen." I mean, I left you a note and everything. Hi. New user here. I don't feel nearly qualified enough to vote, but I still wanted to throw my hat into the ring. The new skin sucks. Plain and simple. I can't stand it; it has so many technical issues that I honestly am considering abandoning any wikis that I regularly visit that still run Wikia. It's that bad. (I would like to note here that I am actually typing this in Notepad so I don't have to deal with the shitty editing in Wikia. I understand that this is not KHWiki, SimsWiki, or any other individual wiki's fault. I enjoy the information I get from these sources. I just find that the tech issues make reading unbearable. I support a move, for this an all wikis. However, I have no idea where to. I do not know enough about any plan to voice a coherent opinion. However, I will support any move plan that has decent logic behind it. (If you choose to respond to this, please let me know on my talk.)

KKD's right. Give the wiki a few months before we up and pack all of our bags. I have only been using it for two weeks, and, with proper customization, I have grown used to it. I still prefer Monaco, but Monaco will be gone. I'm not going to whine about it, as countless people are doing. Another thing, this forum and vote is a little secluded from the community, why not move it to the front page? Or put the news in flashing letters on the page, maybe even its own box or something. Anyway, if we do move the wiki, I'll want to continue editing here as well as the new one. Also, what about the IRC channel? If we're splitting from wikia, it can't exactly be called #wikia-kingdomhearts. --LegoAlchemist 19:34, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Unregistered contibutors and readers can't customize it though, can they? It may suck for us as editors, but they don't even have the ability to improve it if they wanted to. EDIT And this isn't like "preemptively bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki". We're ditching Wikia after giving them multiple chances to try and fix things, not attacking them for no reason.LapisLazuliScarab00:32, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget, they're still working out kinks. I'm not saying that I like the new skin, but I'm just saying to give it a little time. I'm actually getting used to it, and although it's not the same, it still functions. I know it screwed up a lot of articles, but again, I'm agreeing with the others and saying that we should not move just yet. Chitalian8 00:44, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

"I have only been using it for two weeks, and, with proper customization, I have grown used to it." - which is why it is still unacceptable. Whatever skin we have, it must be accessible to ALL users. If Oasis can only be tolerated by those who have logged in and played with it, then it has failed not only as a skin, but in its own stated purpose.

"KKD's right." - KKD is absolutely wrong in everything he said. The release of the skin means it is done, not that they have just produced it. The skin has been out for over a month now, and the truly game-breaking problems are not only not addressed, but wikia has stated that they REFUSE to address them. If you guys want to "give it time", then use it now, with no customizations whatsoever. Get used to what our readers will actually see. Quite frankly, your opinion on whether the skin is acceptable or not is worthless if you have not been doing this.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 00:50, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Completely right in response to my post.

As for your comment on releasing the skin means it's done, that isn't true. Wikia cotinued to make additions to Monaco even in its final moments, so you can't say that what we're getting now is what we're sticking with forever. Heck, they might make changes that will become suitable for KH Wiki, and we'll have been long gone by then. Then we'll want to move everything back. Just saying. --LegoAlchemist 01:02, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

"and the truly game-breaking problems are not only not addressed, but wikia has stated that they REFUSE to address them."(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 01:06, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

READ THIS NOW, ALL OF YOU. EVERY SINGLE WORD.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 01:25, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little off topic here, but has anyone contacted bulbapedia, SmashWiki, and WoWWiki yet? KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

Nope. Somebody should, or else we'll all be here until Nov. 3rd, yelling and arguing to each other. I would say we all need to calm down, but at this point, I believe I would get flamed. Calm down, guys, we can work this out without biting heads off. We don't need to get ignorant like a YouTube commenter or something :/ --Ag (Silver) - 47 107.8682 amu ~Crono

Personaly, I think Kryten or Bluer should be the ones to contact them. I mean, you can argue with me all you want about this, but Kryten is practically the glue that holds the wiki together. And Bluer, well, he is basically the oldest active admin. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON. I am Megatron1 from SSB Wiki and the person who assisted with many moves. I am here because Miles might not respond. Simply use Special:Export to get pages in files and save those fails. Use Special:Import on your next Wiki host in order to upload those files. If this is not clear, feel free to ask me to explain.--MegaTron1XD:p 02:19, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

This was Miles' response:--LapisScarab 02:22, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

I would say get in contact with the NIWA folks through the first email address on this page. NIWA would probably be glad to have you. (I personally didn't do much of the moving work, but I'm sure the NIWAns would be glad to help.) Miles (talk) 22:17, 27 October 2010 (EDT)

No need to contact us...we've already found you! MWAHAHA!

Er, anyways...I'm Neo, the owner of Lylat Wiki, and one of the NIWA staff. I'm here to say that there are options for leaving. If you do go independent, the NIWA would be pleased to affiliate with you and get you into our community. However, you would not be able to join, as you are not a Nintendo related wiki. But don't let that discourage you! If you ask around, you may even be able to get hosting from one of our members. Plus, I'm sure our members would be glad to help you leave Wikia and set up shop somewhere else. They're really cool like that, and they'd be willing to lend their services to you for sure! Like I said, though, we'd be glad to affiliate with you and give you traffic if you become independent. If you have any further questions, feel free to contact me. Just send an email to jfolvarcik[at]gmail[dot]com and I'll be happy to get back to you ASAP. Best of luck with your situation!—Neo(talk) 03:28, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Also, you may want to change somethings in the wiki, becuase people may still come in and change pages you already exported. see this page and this one for more info. Bud0011 04:19, October 28, 2010 (UTC).

Thank you guys for this info. It really helps. And, a little off topic, but can someone remove the heading? I'm only asking this because, if you all remember what happened on the Twitter forum, we were constantly adding new headings, and the comments left in the previous headings were left unread. That should definitaly not be done to this thread. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

So what's gonna happen? Will we all move to somewhere new and start from scratch, or stay here and somehow work it out? If we're all moving, I'm going too. This wiki has some great people on it (Trois, Kryten, Lapis, Azul, etc.) It would be very difficult to reconstruct a 2000+ page wiki from nothing, but if we all work together, I'm sure we have a shot. But Final Fantasy wiki is staying, so what's the final verdict with us? Mar 21:56, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Well, you don't have to move and start from scratch. You can move, and pickup almost exactly where you left off; just in a new location. Bud0011 22:00, October 28, 2010 (UTC).

Where would we move to? Would we be able to get there easily? My guess is that the link to wiki for kh wiki would just be moved, but I'm not sure. Would it even be the same? Would we be able to keep our talkboxes? And what about the 8 years of forums we've had? And the article talk pages?Mar 22:05, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

LapisScarab - You accept darkness, yet choose to live in the light. So why is it that you loathe us who teeter on the edge of nothing? We who were turned away by both light and dark - never given a choice? TALK - That may be... however, what other choice might we have had? We're just moving locations. We won't lose much of anything in terms of content (including main articles, forums, and templates).

You would lose some Wikia-only stuff....but none of that is in either list given. Bud0011 22:25, October 28, 2010 (UTC).

I understand. What qualifies as "Wikia only material"? I know we'll lose monaco forever, but hey, at leasst we have monobook. I just hopeit won't be too radically differet.Mar 22:30, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Monaco's source is actually available, it's a mess and will take more work to clean up, but there's a possibility of using it outside of Wikia. But you also have vector available. The semi-troublesome stuff are images and blocks, the more troublesome stuff are users. Talkboxes are just templates, talkpages are just pages, forums are just pages, just make sure you have the same forum extension installed (it's not a Wikia feature, it's a 3rd party extension that Wikia just installed) and it'll be fine since importing full page history is almost trivial. ~ NOTASTAFF Dantman^{(Local Talk ⁝ Animanga Talk)} 22:38, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

What do you meanby "Users: are troublesome? You mean we'd just lose admin/mod status? Even if we did, we could just immediately get it back, but during that time period, the wiki would be vulnerbale to vandalism.Mar 22:50, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

He means that transferring user accounts is difficult.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 22:55, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ohhh..... well we could always just create a new account with the same name wherever we're moving to. Or is it possible? If we have to move every single user over there.... we'd mostly just take the more prominent ones, like you or Trois, while the samll yet still important accounts like me get left in the dust...Mar 22:58, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

The tricky part is anyone can resister with the name of a user that had edits and pretend they are them, they basically end up claiming the user's contributions. ~ NOTASTAFF Dantman^{(Local Talk ⁝ Animanga Talk)} 23:13, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Master Vantius - The light and darkness must be equal to bring balance to the worlds. TALK - Master Vantius 00:08, October 29, 2010 (UTC) I have a question. If the wiki does move, what will happen to our accounts? Also, wetpaint is an excellent wiki sight. It is very easy to use and edit. There is some customization to it. www.ncisfanwiki.com is a good example.

We could have the accounts be by approval only at first, and have all the people who want to keep their accounts be assigned a set time to register an account, with an admin confirming afterward with the alleged editor that it was them. It would be time consuming, but it would be the safest way to make sure there isn't spoofing.(ಠ_ೃ) Bully! 00:14, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

What about if we have a variable internet connection? Sometimes my modem goes out for weeks at a time and I can't get on the wiki.Mar 00:19, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Gah, sorry guys. It's not that I don't have an opinion, it's just that real life hit me over the last couple of weeks...very hard. Anyway, I would like to ask what would moving encompass, i.e. who's willing to sign up for and set up the new wiki, who's willing to transfer coding and articles, etc. Breaking down the tasks at this point would make it seem less daunting. Second, do we have a solid lead on a new home? And third, how are the transfers with the major wikis who left or are planning on leaving going? Much as I loathe Oasis, I would rather wait and see what issues occur for other wikis before we jump the gun and end up in the same boat. We might be able to avoid any major problems down the line by learning from them. I like Kryten's idea of approving our established users; for my suggestion, is there some way we could assign everyone a unique "password" in secret rather than a time so we wouldn't have a chance of others spoofing at the approved times? Probably too complicated, but just a thought. BebopKate 02:51, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Actually, the password thing isn't too far off. We could hold a giant IRC thing. Oh, and I'll be willing to do any tasks asked of me. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

I agree with the password thing, but I don't know how to access IRC. Can someone please help me out a bit with that? But remember, if you need me, just leave a message on my page, I'll be there(Except during school hours).Mar 03:11, October 29, 2010 (UTC)