Talk:Blank Points

--KrspaceT 02:09, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

I really think that this game will exist in most important past worlds, as well as ones appearing in Brith By Sleep. That is if they weren't destroyed. You remember that fairy tale that said all the worlds used to be connected as one? That might just be what happens again. Soil is my power! 23:58, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the worlds will be reconnected. But it's hard to tell. For all WE know, Sora might be going to a tea party.--User:PrincessAndie8thprincessofheart/sig 22:15, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

huh?

i just wathed those trailers and i'm confused as hell!

and i thought i had kingdom hearts all figured out....

HeartFallout Talk! — If I had a dollar for every time I broke my PS2.. I would still be very poor. — 23:36, January 14, 2010 (UTC) How do you figure out Kingdom Hearts? It's impossible. Every time you think you do, they spring something on you that puts your entire perspective of reality into question.

Haha, when you think of it that way, it's kinda like LOST. No matter how hard you try, you may never fully understand it... 66.215.20.249 04:40, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

nah nah nah nah! i have a theory about blank points. Here: Sora must once again save the worlds from something (xehanort's regaining his memory and being able to control the keyblade again? that would be great!) but he cannot do it alone. so he needs to find the three previous keyblade wielders to help him (ventus, terra and aqua) so he searches, wandering world to world in hope of information on how to revive/retreive those three. (sources: in a trailer, yen sid said that he found ventus's heart, and that terra was the only one STILL missing, that means they were all missings but he looked for their hearts, there must be a reason. and if he tells sora, it must be because sora needs them!)--you and I will have to join together! 03:21, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of It

Faythoffenrir - "In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed. - Red Mage Statcowski TALK - 00:42, January 15, 2010 (UTC) Just trying to figure this out: Reconnect. As someone above stated, it could be referring to the worlds reconnecting, but I think it could also mean all of the characters from the series reconnecting. What else can we infer from this video?

Maybe the King's letter was telling Sora to go find something, possibly proof that Xion existed, or maybe the 3 keyblade masters from BBS. We can't really infer anything, for with Kingdom Hearts: Everything is not what it seems. We're just making guesses from what we (mis)understand.--User:PrincessAndie8thprincessofheart/sig 22:13, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

While Xion may be slightly involved(hope not, I just don't like her. I mean Alyson Stoner?) but I think it has more to do with the BBS scenario. Randomnessity Looks like you're already prepared.

Mrsaxel - No matter how far away we are, our hearts will bring us together again. TALK - Did the King send you?00:08, January 17, 2010 (UTC) :DDD This makes me so excited! Okay, well I took short notes and I just have a few theories to add. Why was Ansem the Wise back in the realm of darkness? He already said that that was his second time there. I thought that when the heart extractor exploded he died... but did he? Does being in the realm of darkness mean you die, or you're given another chance at life, like Sora and Riku were? I think that Ansem might make another appearence, even though he's not particuarly my favorite character. :x Ansem said that Sora could help so "those crippled beings could be saved". Note that he said BEINGS, not people. Maybe this is just my fangirl speaking, but I hope he means that Nobodies could have a chance at life again! It's probably not, but that would be cool if we could see Axel again. =^_^= Mrsaxel 00:11, January 17, 2010 (UTC)MrsAxel

Faythoffenrir - "In the arena of logic, I fight unarmed. - Red Mage Statcowski TALK - 01:04, January 17, 2010 (UTC) Maybe reconnect (if it refers to the worlds) could mean that you could travel between worlds w/o gummiship and maybe retain characters between worlds. Simba on the Black Pearl, anyone? Or would that be to awesome?

emily- well i think all the characters (sora riku kairi xion namine roxas ventus aqua terra) reconnect because there re still heartless and nobodies and they have to work together

Canon

On the subject of the article itself, why is it stated that this video's stated status as canon differentiates it from the others? Haven't the other videos been established as canon durring 358/2 Days and Birth By Sleep? (The-Man-Who-Laughs 02:42, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

Absolutely not. They are specifically stated to be uncanon, and have numerous differences from the actual events. They are intended to be trailers, certainly, but changes are always made between planning and final product. This is, instead, an epilogue, rather than a trailer.Glorious CHAOS! 03:13, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Deep Dive is almost exactly the same in 358/2 Days as it is in Final Mix. A movie trailer is a disjointed representation of the canon events within. The first Another Side, Another Story was just a teaser porviding concept, but Deep Dive is pretty much exactly the same as the cutscene in the game. I recognize that Reconnect is an epilogue instead of a tralier, but the others aren't exactly non-canon, so I don't think that should be a noted factor. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 03:40, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

"They are specifically stated to be uncanon". For an example of a difference - Roxas doesn't paint the heart around himself in KHII or Days.Glorious CHAOS! 05:19, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

1) Tiny detail difference, the video is mostly canon. LOOK at the damn thing. It's at least 90% canon by just looking at the damn video. 2) Source? When were they specifically stated to be uncanon, and how does that work when the end of Days is obviously meant to be Deep Dive quite damn near exactly? (The-Man-Who-Laughs 05:37, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

Neumannz — Looks like I'm gonna have to jump...! TALK — I work alone! Except when I work with Xion...which is all the time. — 06:29, January 18, 2010 (UTC)   It doesn't matter what it's almost the same as, those secret movies are stylized hints towards events to appear in an upcoming game. None of them occurs until it actually occurs, in the particular game of interest. This, on the other hand, is not stylized at all, it's depicted as straight-forward conversation. The only part that I would consider more... say, artistic license, is the part where everyone is saying Sora's name, except for Aqua at the end.

But that's not the point. "I recognize that Reconnect is an epilogue instead of a trailer" My point is that the others were not 'non-canon' they were previews of events to come and events that did indeed come to pass in games following in release date but not necessarily timeline. The point is, they were canon events shown to foreshadow other events of the upcoming games. Reconnect IS different in that it's an epilogue instead of a trailer. Reconnect is the same in the fact that it is also a secret unlockable video, and it is NOT different in terms of canon because all 3 are canon in some regard. I'm fine with acknowledging that Reconnect is a different sort of secret unlockable video, but the stating that its canonocity seperates it from the others is not a valid statement. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 06:36, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

KrytenKoro - "An education was a bit like a communicable sexual disease. It made you unsuitable for a lot of jobs and then you had the urge to pass it on." TALK - I'll try to find the link, but Nomura specifically said that while the other ending videos were just trailers, this one was more of an epilogue. 1) "Tiny detail difference" is what MAKES it uncanon. "Canon" is a strong word, and cannot be stretched. In the manner you are using it, most fan fiction could be considered "canon". 2) Yes, they used the scene as the basis for Roxas's capture. But even after making Kingdom Hearts, Nomura stated that it WAS NOT his intention to continue the series, and that they actually had to struggle to use most of the quotes which show up in the video. It was never, at any point, meant to be canon. EDIT: Here's one of the quotes: "Nomura: Don’t just watch the ending, but the secret movie too. I think your impressions of the story will change. Though I can’t say about the last developments, this secret movie is not connected to just the sequel but its content recaps the story."

Everyone keeps saying that it is stated but nobody can show me where. Deep Dive is the ending of Days with some flash and substance thrown in the background, but movie trailers generally show canon events with words thrown in to inform you. Doe that make the movie trailer uncanon? All of the events depicted are the events in the film, the added words are different and the events are jumbled about but they're each individually canon in their own regard, and Deep Dive shows events that do occur with some extra words thrown in. And in addition I located an article on this very site stating that Nomura has stated that the Birth By Sleep video is also canon. http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Birth_by_sleep_(Video)#Commentary_by_Nomura So, you tell me where they are 'specifically stated to be non-canon' because it seems to me that they are specifically stated and SHOWN at this point to be canon as near as I can tell with sources. [EDIT] He says in the quote you provided, that "It is not connected to JUST the sequel." The key word there is JUST, implying that it is 'connected' to the sequel but also other events as well, not saying it's not canon. And if it's a 'recap' as stated, a RECAP is canon as well, that's why its a recap, a retelling of canon events. [EDIT2] Wait I'm confused,you said, "Nomura specifically said that while the other ending videos were just trailers, this one was more of an epilogue." A point which I have repeatedly AGREED with. Just because they are trailers does not mean they are not canon. They were trailers and not teasers. And just because it was not 'intended' to be canon doesn't change the fact that future games MADE them canon. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 06:57, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

KrytenKoro - Click TALK - You have a very warped view of what "canon" means. No, movie trailers are most emphatically not canon. Furthermore, nowhere in the link you posted does Nomura say that the video is canon. Again, there are clear differences between the first four secret videos and the actual events. That, in and of itself, makes them uncanon. I will continue to look for the actual quote I'm looking for, but at this point that's just extra. EDIT: Here's another quote (my highlighting) One of the surprises of playing KHII is that the scenes and lines foreshadowed in the "deep dive" secret movie in KH:FM were actually cleared. On solving the underplots, how much was hypothesized back in the first KH? I think half was thought up back in the first game, another half was thought up once we started working on KHII. Even so, that doesn't mean we didn't think of them at all in the first place, but more like a rough "maybe we should do this." We also changed somethings we thought up at that time so that's what I mean by half-half. Another: At the end of the previous installment, KH, there was a secret movie that was to bring light on what the sequels could be like. When you made those sequences, did you already have in mind what CoM and KHII would be like? In a kind of vague way yes. The most precise visions I hade were those of KHII as I already had decided that it would take place a year after KH, that the atmosphere would be different in some ways. If I was to create a KHII I wanted it to begin in the most intriguing way as it would be possible. I only began thinking about "What happens in that year between" in CoM much later. Another: Nomura: Yes there is one. Except this time it isn’t a pre-rendered movie that gives a hint as to how the story will develop later, but is shown like an event scene. There is dialog, and in all it runs about ten minutes. It is set up as one episode. Instead of showing us what will happen in the future, it is more like a true ending. I would really like everyone to see it. There are characters that will only show up there in it as well. Another: After the ending, there’s a secret movie this time, too. What exactly is the movie trying to tell? I actually have a solid idea on what the movie’s setting will be in my head. In the previous game’s secret movie, I wasn’t even sure if I would be making a sequel or not, so some parts of it were quite vague. But this time I already have an idea my head where I think “This is it.” Another: When did KHII’s development officially start? In the previous game, I inserted a secret movie in hopes of creating a sequel, but to actually pull it off, KHII had a number of hurdles that I had to clear first. Like our wish “to give Mickey more spotlight”, we had to wait until Disney allowed that and once it’s settled, then we could finally talk about KHII’s development.

KrytenKoro - "That's when we bumped into Hannity. Sean Hannity. See the thing about this dude is, at first he's fair, right? And you're like "Wow!" But then BOOM. The dude's balanced, too. And you're like, HOLY SHIT." TALK - Now, as far as I've seen in these, Nomura does not explicitly say that the videos are uncanon, so if I said that he did, I may have been wrong. However, he gives the very clear implication with these quotes that the videos were not meant to be canon (which is by definition explicitly so), but instead were "hints" towards the next game. Of particular note is that Nomura calls this one a "true ending", which does seem to imply that it alone is canon, of the secret videos. Nevertheless, the fact remains that merely by differing from the core games, the secret videos are uncanon.

Why these quotes are unreliable:

EDIT: Here's another quote (my highlighting)

One of the surprises of playing KHII is that the scenes and lines foreshadowed in the "deep dive" secret movie in KH:FM were actually cleared. On solving the underplots, how much was hypothesized back in the first KH? I think half was thought up back in the first game, another half was thought up once we started working on KHII. Even so, that doesn't mean we didn't think of them at all in the first place, but more like a rough "maybe we should do this." We also changed somethings we thought up at that time so that's what I mean by half-half. Anybody can take words out of context and make them mean what they want, and since this quote doesn't at all relate to Birth by Sleep, it isn't a valid argument.

Another: At the end of the previous installment, KH, there was a secret movie that was to bring light on what the sequels could be like. When you made those sequences, did you already have in mind what CoM and KHII would be like? This was a question given by an interviewer. You can't use this as evidence for your cause...

In a kind of vague way yes. The most precise visions I hade were those of KHII as I already had decided that it would take place a year after KH, that the atmosphere would be different in some ways. If I was to create a KHII I wanted it to begin in the most intriguing way as it would be possible. I only began thinking about "What happens in that year between" in CoM much later. Not only does this not talk about Birth by Sleep, it doesn't even mention a secret ending. All it says is that Nomura is unsure of what might happen inbetween.

Another: Nomura: Yes there is one. Except this time it isn’t a pre-rendered movie that gives a hint as to how the story will develop later, but is shown like an event scene. There is dialog, and in all it runs about ten minutes. It is set up as one episode. Instead of showing us what will happen in the future, it is more like a true ending. I would really like everyone to see it. There are characters that will only show up there in it as well. When he said that it is a true ending, this meant that it wrapped up the story that has happened so far. It shows that all these people have suffered, and that Sora will save them. This doesn't mean, however, that these events did not happen. Your argument is that these events are uncanon, not that they don't speak of further games.

Another: After the ending, there’s a secret movie this time, too. What exactly is the movie trying to tell? I actually have a solid idea on what the movie’s setting will be in my head. In the previous game’s secret movie, I wasn’t even sure if I would be making a sequel or not, so some parts of it were quite vague. But this time I already have an idea my head where I think “This is it.” I have no idea why you chose this quote, it just works against what you said. It claims that Nomura already knew exactly what was going on when he made this, and furthermore knows that these events will happen. In the Birth by Sleep trailer, not all events were exactly as they were shown, but like he says in that quote, he wasn't as sure of the game yet. In this ending, he is, so he knows exactly what is going on.

Another: When did KHII’s development officially start? In the previous game, I inserted a secret movie in hopes of creating a sequel, but to actually pull it off, KHII had a number of hurdles that I had to clear first. Like our wish “to give Mickey more spotlight”, we had to wait until Disney allowed that and once it’s settled, then we could finally talk about KHII’s development. What I love here is that this quote means nothing. Just that development didn't start doesn't mean the events weren't planned. The movie was meant to show what events would happen in the future, IF the game was made they got the right sources. It wasn't meant to show the possiblity of what might be planned.

Your hypothesis is about as valid as the argument: people walk on the balls of their feet, so buy our shoes!

The end of Days depicts events identical to the events depicted in Deep Dive. Both were made officially and shown in KH games. Please explain to me how that is not canon.

The link I provided contains this line "Nomura stated in a Famitsu interview that this video is the non-playable ending of the PSP game, and that the game might take place ten years before the first Kingdom Hearts game." Which is presented on this very site to be as much fact as the statement I am questioning. The site itself is contradicting itself. The quote I provided makes a statement referencing a specific, probably easily double-checkable interview, while the one in question is more vague and indirect.

What part of "True Ending" inmplies non-canon? If anything you just provided evidence to support my claim. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 07:33, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

KrytenKoro - "Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life." TALK - Again, they are not identical. "Canon" is a very strong word. Mere differences ARE enough to derail it. The link you gave gives the clear implication that the KH2 secret videos feature characters and a scene from Birth by Sleep - it does not claim that the secret video itself is canon, and in fact, the monster the Keybladers defeated at the beginning of the Gathering is nowhere to be seen in the game itself. As far as I've seen, they don't grab the Way to the Dawn, Kingdom Key, and Kingdom Key D, either. "True Ending" does not explicitly mean that the others were uncanon, but certainly implies it.

I can't confirm or deny the canonocity of the Birth By Sleep video, but that link clearly states that it is or at least was intended to be canon. My restating true ending can be disregarded b/c I missed the context in my first readthrough. Secondly... the only real reason Deep Dive is any different than the ending of Days is they way the graphics are rendered. Deep Dive has the extra boosted graphcs look about it, but the point still remains that the same characters, fight the same heartless, with the same weapons, in the same ways. The only difference, is that in the video we watch the fight, in the game we instead play the fight. Please explain to me how one is not canon when the other is and they are the sames thing.

[EDIT] Answer me this. Re: Chain of Memories includes additional cutscenes, different stlyed fight scenes in cutscenes, complete graphical overhauls thus changing the events much more so than the difference between Deep Dive and Days, even gives Marluxia an extra form as a boss. Now, with all this in mind, is Chaim of Memories the original now un-canon? Are all of the regular games non-canon becuase their status as canon is subverted by the Final Mix games? Are only the FInal Mix games canon and the regular games not? (The-Man-Who-Laughs 07:46, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

KrytenKoro - This is the song that runs under the credits; these are the credits, so this is where it goes. 'has nothing to do with the movie so we'll say, "Hey! Hey! Hey hey hey hey hey hey!" TALK - The "graphical" level is not an applicable difference, nor what I was referring to with "Deep Dive" and "The Gathering". For example, Kairi is not shown on the skyscrapers in The Dark City during the Roxas battle in Days. Again, the link does not clearly state that it was intended to be canon - it was intended to be a representation of the PSP game. If you've read the actual interview, Nomura makes this clear (emphasis mine): Interviewer: The game still relates to Birth By Sleep? [KH2: FM+'s secret ending] Nomura: The secret ending [from KH2: FM+] is actually a scene from Birth By Sleep, therefore the title of the game is also the same. However, because it is difficult to express such a violent battle as playable content, the secret ending [from KH2: FM+] is an image of the end. Interviewer: How much talk was put into it, as it seems to be a game taking place in the past. Nomura: This game goes the farthest back in the Kingdom Hearts timeline, about ten years before the original Kingdom Hearts. There is a screenshot of two children playing on the beach, and I believe the fans can understand what that means. [Sora and Riku as children?] In regards to the three Final Mix games, I would say that yes, they are considered the true canon, both because of their intent (to be the final interpretation of that game), and how they affect the surrounding story. Both Chain of Memories games clearly post the Diamond Dust and One-Winged Angel Keyblades as real by using them as Attack Cards, meaning that they are in Sora's memories. Then, the meeting with the Enigmatic Man, which directly impacts later games. Finally, the Lingering Sentiment, who, while not known to directly impact the continuing story, is clearly a result of BBS. However, this is somewhat more tenuous, as the games were originally intended to be canon before the decision to remix the game was made. The secret movies, however, were never intended to be canon from the start - in fact, the Black Coat and Knight's Armor are direct results of Nomura just not wanting to leak the character's faces at that time. EDIT: I've found another quote (again, emphasis mine): Setting that alongside the movie, we put in scenes that echo the secret movie from KHIIFM, with scenes of their training, and scenes with them holding their charms.

Ok, please tell me what the hell you're talking about with Kairi, because I have no idea what you mean. It is completely obvious that the end of Days is intended to be Deep Dive. The have both Roxas and Riku go through movements exactly the same to match Deep Dive. They fight the same heartless with the same keyblades, go through the same exchange on the building, and go through the same events. The only difference is the graphics style, and some of the exact movements during the fight, and if you want to count that, you have to count the fact that no single plyathough of the game is continuitous with any other because you will never fight everything the exact same way more than once, and therefore every playthrough by any person is not continuious with any other.

Also, The secret ending [from KH2: FM+] is actually a scene from Birth By Sleep" IS ACTUALLY A SCENE FROM BIRTH BY SLEEP. Straight from the horse's mouth! What part of that doesn't scream canon into a bullhorn with hot pink confetti? The point is that BBS the video is a preview of the actual events of BBS the game. BBS the video by itself is nothing more than a piece of the game taken out of context and spruced up a bit. The EVENTS of the video are continuitous, but by themself they mean nothing. It is only in BBS the game that the video's event's place in the canon timeline are shown. Maybe the 'videos themselves' are not 'directly continuitous' but the both protray continuitous events in canon that were not yet shown where in the timeline they were until later. Days made Deep Dive canon, BBS made BBS canon. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 10:51, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

Neumannz — Looks like I'm gonna have to jump...! TALK — I work alone! Except when I work with Xion...which is all the time. — 17:27, January 18, 2010 (UTC)   The events are the same, but only one version is the correct one, and that is the one in the game. All the little differences are important, including: there was a conversation before the fight in BBS, where there wasn't in the secret video. Also TAV didn't don their armor until the fight began. the billboards with Kairi and other stylistic elements are missing from the actual fight as depicted in KH2 and Days (Also, Mickey never shows up) They may show the same event, but only the in-game version is the real account. You may think the little differences don't make it different, but they're significant enough to distinguish between the versions.

I can't say anything about BBS having not played the game itself, but stylistic differences in the fight is not reliable evidence. When an event happens in any animated media and is show later as a flashback sometimes the flashback is animated sepreatly. Trees blowing, blades of grass, little tiny details will be changed but does that discount one over another? The actual stylings of the fight are unreliable data because 90% of the fights in the games are done by the player. You can tell they attempted to keep the movements the same and instead of reanimating the fight itself, they let the player enact the fight, but the fight shown in Deep Dive is a representation of the fight done by the player. Deep Dive happens. Deep Dive may not happen exactly as shown, but Deep Dive was an event shown prior to its appearance. Deep Dive happened, Days showed us that Dee Dive happened, that was the point of the way they did the scene, they made it clear that they wanted you to know that the end of Days was Deep Dive b/c now you can say, oh, Deep Dive was just showing us what was going to happen in Days instead of just being a random jumble of concepts, as I and most people originally thought, now Deep Dive is actually what happened later and not fragments of what might h were sghown. Deep Dive itself is the appen; because they made it happen in Days

[EDIT] and, if I may add, because Mickey did not do anything in relation to the characters besides watch, you cannot reliably say that he wasn't there. Just because Days didn't show him there, does not mean he wasn't there, it just means they didn't show us thatt he was there. I'm not saying he 100% was there, but I am saying you cannot say he 100% wasn't there. "The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence." (The-Man-Who-Laughs 22:00, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

KrytenKoro - "It is often said that before you die your life passes before your eyes. It is in fact true. It's called living." TALK - I'll say this one last time: Nomura never intended the trailers to be canon, they were intended to be "hints". And even excluding that, there are numerous and significant differences between the videos and actual events, so they are not, under any circumstances, canon. End of story.

Regardles of whether or not they were 'intended' to be canon at the time of creation, the matter of the fact is, that the end of Days, takes a scene previously disregarded as a jumble of non-canon concepts, and made them into canon events. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 22:32, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

Neumannz — Looks like I'm gonna have to jump...! TALK — I work alone! Except when I work with Xion...which is all the time. — 23:25, January 18, 2010 (UTC)   So what? The event happened, so every depiction of that event is canon, despite the fact that they're different? Despite the fact that one of them was not even intended to be canon? There can be only one version of events that can be called canon, and it's the one in the games. Deep Dive is not canon.

They are EXACTLY THE SAME event wise. Despite a graphics difference which is by no means any kind of indication, and a few scenes in Deep Dive that are not in Days. Days itself does NOT demonstrate any proof whatsoever that the events not shown did not happen. Mickey didn't do anything in the trailer besides watch, just because Days didn't shw him watching doesn't mean he was watching, but it also doesn't mean he wasn't. Deep Dive is part of Days surgically removed and placed on its own. It was a demonstartion of the events before they were shown. Deep Dive itself is just a clip, protraying canon events. These events are repeated in Days to provide context and timeline placement for the canon events of Deep Dive. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 23:38, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

It seems to me that, just because there are some minor differences between 2 interpretations of the same story, that does not mean one version is wrong or not canon. In Pulp Fiction, parts of the story are told from different points of view and because of this minor details about what happens are remembered differently, because one persons perseption of the events are different. However, because the majority of the events are the same both interpretations are seen as correct and essential to the story. While it's difficult to place exactly when the events of the endings occur at the moment, due to the fact that we don't have access to Birth by Sleep, we can not discredit the the continuity as of yet.It can also be stated that while no one who works on these games, has expessed wether or not these scenes are events that actually happen in the games, or if they are just teasers, it would work against them to confirm one or the other, due to the fact that, one set of consumers might be off-put by knowing exactly what's going to happen, and another group might be off-put by the fotage not appearing in the game. So unless they have expressly said otherwise we can not prove one way or the other that the cutscenes from the games are or are not in continuity, but we can't discredit them over minor differences, especially with nothing to verify them with.(Equick 03:42, January 19, 2010 (UTC))

Neumannz — Looks like I'm gonna have to jump...! TALK — I work alone! Except when I work with Xion...which is all the time. — 03:53, January 19, 2010 (UTC)   [sigh] First of all, Equick, turn off your Rich-Text Editor. Please. It's not another point of view, it's not a flashback, it's not a cutscene, it's not an epilogue, it's a PROMOTIONAL VIDEO. It doesn't matter what's depicted in it, it is by nature noncanon. It could be exactly the same as what happened in the game--and it's not--but the only thing that matters is that they're not intended to be canon, so they're not canon. It's that simple. The only canon is what happens in the games, in gameplay or in cutscenes.

....Yes, we can discredit them over minor differences. That is the entire purpose of the concept of "canon".

Furthermore, every quote we've gotten from Nomura has the clear implication that these were intended only as teasers - he had not already planned the next game, he did it almost 100% just to drum up interest in a sequel, he gave them new costumes just because he hadn't designed their faces yet.

Please, you "two", look up "canon" in a dictionary or encyclopedia. It is a word that cannot be twisted in meaning.Glorious CHAOS! 03:51, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

No, you cannot discredit them because the differences do not implicitly contradict each other. Anything in either video that is not shown in the other is also not explicitly shown to not happen. And YES, at the time of conception, they were intended only as teares. Now, look at the time Deep Dive was even released, 2002, meaning the idea was in motion even before that. Now, flash forward to 2009, 7 years later when 358/2 Days is released. Maybe Deep Dive was not INTENDED to be canon, BUT, MUCH LATER AFTER MAKING THAT STATEMENT, Deep Dive is MADE canon by including it as the ending of 358/2 Days. The ONLY DIFFERENCES are the graphics (No bearing on continuity), and the appearance of Mickey, and the bilboard. JUST BEACUSE these things were NOT shown in 358/2 Days does NOT mean they weren't happening in the continuity. It would in fact make sense that Mickey was watching. Because what he did had no bearing on the events progressing, it was unnessicary to show him in the game itself. I'm not saying he 100% was there, but I am saying you cannot prove 100% he WASN'T there, thus at least bringing up the possibility that Deep Dive IS continuitous. But look at what you're saying. WHEN THE TEASER WAS MADE it was not INTENDED to be canon. And yes indeed, COM and KHII both did not contain Deep Dive, but 7 YEARS LATER, 358/2 Days DOES show Deep Dive happening. The video was not intended to be canon AT FIRST, but obviously Nomura changed his mind. THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE SCENE. In viewing it is completely obvious that it is INTENDED to be Deep Dive rendered in in-game graphics. They took careful care to show the heartless rising from the ground at the same angles, Roxas doing the same movements to bring out his keyblades, and Roxas and Riku taking the same route up and down the tower respectively. They even have Riku hesitiating while thinking about Sora as he falls both times. AT THE TIME IT WAS MADE Deep Dive was not INTENDED to be canon, but the obvious use of the same events from the same perspectives shows that it was LATER decided to make it canon. This is not unheard of in the video game world. Several Castlevania games have gone through this descrepincy. Castlevania Legends was originally intended to chronicle the first time a Belmont defeated Dracula, not contradicted by the later Lament of Innocence where we see the first Belmont to meet Dracula, but not fight him, but swear his family will continue to hunt him for generations. EVEN SO, Legends was removed from continuity. Circle of the Moon, Castlevania 64, Legacy of Darkness were all removed and regarded as 'spin offs' and 'not part of the true continuity.' But with the release of Portrait of Ruin, a restructured timeline placed these games into the main canon. The point is, just because something was not intended to be canon, doesn't mean it can't be changed. The events shown were BLATANTLY revisited in 358/2 Days with no accountable discrepancies. Any minor differences are ACCOUNTABLE FOR. The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence. Just because Mickey wasn't shown watching doesn't mean he wasn't, even though it doesn't mean he was.

Edit @ Neumannz: it was a 'Secret Video,' intended for promotional purposes, but the fact remains that when 358/2 Days was released, it became a stylized cutscene account of events to come. It was originally intended to be a promotional video, but was not specifically labled that, giving the creators free will to change the nature of it without having to change the 'title status' of it. It transformed from a supposed to be non-canon jumble of ideas into an accurate depiction of future events. Also, by saying that what is canon is only what is shown in the games you are implying that events offscreen that are not specifically mentioned and time inbetween games are in fact not canon, and that the plot just has a big empty space in those places. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 04:31, January 19, 2010 (UTC))

Neumannz — Looks like I'm gonna have to jump...! TALK — I work alone! Except when I work with Xion...which is all the time. — 04:17, January 19, 2010 (UTC)   The event is canon. Deep Dive is a video of an event that became canon, but Deep Dive is not friggin' canon. It's not a game, it's not a deleted scene. IT'S NOT CANON. Just because the event happened doesn't change that. Ever.

Canon: Those sources, especially including literary works, which are generally considered authoritative regarding a given fictional universe.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canon

Deep Dive. Is a video. A video that by itself. Depicts canon events. A video is defined by what it shows, and that is all it shows. Now please explain to me why a video that shows canon events happening is not canon. Deep Dive is a canon event, shown by itself making it's exact place in canon ambiguous, and as inteded at first, not canon. But 358/2 Days REVISITS events now made canon and establishes them as canon by establishing a context and RESHOWING CANON EVENTS in a game. Deep Dive was a Secret Video INCLUDED in a game. It was later proven that it showed canon events before they happened, or it could be said that it just showed a bit of what happened later, or perhaps, Linking KH1 and 2 by making the last thing shown in KH1 the very last event that occurs before KH2, making KH2 even more of a direct sequel and solidifying COM and 358/2 Days as Midquels, b/c they fill in the space left between KH1 and Deep Dive which was included IN KH1. The show Heroes has online comics as back up material. Are you saying they're not 'canon' b/c they're not the official show, just promotional tie-ins? Is the original Star Wars: Clone Wars miniseries not 'canon' b/c it was just a lead-in into the movie and not the movie? If the cutscenes are taken out of the game and shown alone are they suddenly no longer 'canon'? (The-Man-Who-Laughs 04:31, January 19, 2010 (UTC))

Neumannz — Looks like I'm gonna have to jump...! TALK — I work alone! Except when I work with Xion...which is all the time. — 04:51, January 19, 2010 (UTC)