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"Somebody" is a HUGE Mistake!

Normally, I would've pasted this here: http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Category_talk:Somebody Buuut...nobody really pays attention to that talk page anymore.

It's been argued left and right about the validity of using "Somebody" as a canonical reference for complete beings. I'll just get right to my own personal bias: It sounds bloody retarded. But I'm not here to flaunt my own personal experience, I'm here to question it's validity, and provide some nice evidence against it - both solid, and contextual.

The first bout of evidence I will provide is contextual, since it makes for a more intellectual argument. Here are exact quotes from the games:

1-Roxas: "If I had a heart...would that make me somebody?" (358/2 Days) 2-Roxas: "If I had a heart, you think I could love somebody?" (358/2 Days) 3-Larxene: "Rewrite Sora's heart, and you can be somebody, not just the shadow of somebody." (CoM) 4-Larxene: "Then you can actually be somebody---and no longer just Kairi's shadow." (Re:Com)

I looked through all the transcripts of the game dialogue, and these are all the ones I found relevant to the context of which "Somebody" is referred. I might've missed one or two, but I doubt very much they're all that different. So, in the contextual argument, why is "Somebody" an incorrect reference? It all lies in the English language, and sentence structure, actually. In context of individual sentences, "somebody" is almost always referred to in the same sense as "living a life" is ("I wanna make lotsa munny! I WANNA BE SOMEBODY!"). In that same sense, we don't refer to people as the "Alive" or "Living", just because they're in their own way living a fulfilling life. Sure, they're exactly that, "living", but we do have terminology that focuses on specificity. In the same, "somebody" is always used as a metaphorical allegory in the context of the story. Not to mention, Roxas's own interpretation: Early on in the game, he takes the name "Nobody" quite literally, to where Zexion further expands on it, and simply tells him that an incomplete being is referred to as that. As common sense dictates, if you were to ask yourself a question opposite of the answer, you would use wording that's the exact opposite of the terminology you're familiar with ("If I'm a Nobody now...would I be somebody later?"). Not to mention, the general application of "Somebody" is far too literal. Take a look at quote #4. With an equivalent literal application, would that make Namine Kairi's literal shadow? I thought she just a Nobody? Now she's a Shadow? Same thing, really. A deeper look into the context outside of the single sentence is required for full understanding before application. Not to mention, Nobodies, Heartless, Unversed, and Dream Eaters all have one magical thing preceding the names: Count nouns, and plurals! "A", "the", they", "them", etc etc. "Somebody" has I believe only once had a count noun preceding it, and even then, it was used in a metaphorical context. Not once has been referred in a plural sense in any of the games. "A Nobody." "The Heartless." "The Unversed." "An Unversed." "A Heartless." "Nobodies." Need I go on?

Now, that was contextual evidence...largely based on a deeper understanding of English, as well as sentence structure, more importantly. The solid evidence? I'll let a certain dialogue exchange from Days do the talking:

(Day 10 Mission - The first mission with Zexion) Zexion: "Roxas, you and I and all the Organization's members are what we call Nobodies." Roxas: "Well, that's not very nice." Zexion: "With a capital N. It's a name, for those of us who are missing a vital piece of who we are: our hearts." Roxas: "I don't have a heart?"

Capitalization! Heartless, Nobodies, Unversed, and Dream Eaters, all contain capitalized first letters! Once again, it denotes naming. Not once has somebody ever been capitalized in the games outside of the word being the first word in a sentence, and in every one of those instances, it was used a terribly different context ("Somebody's comin'!"). That right there should be the biggest alarm bell. The second solid proof? Japanese pronunciations. If every one of the games, Heartless, Nobodies, Unversed, and Dream Eaters, are all written in Japanese in a way that they're pronounced in their roman forms: Hātoresu, Nōbadi, Anvāsu, Dorīmu ītā. In short, it's the opposite of Romanji (Don't really know the technical term of pronouncing Latin phonics in Japanese...sorry!). However, the application of "somebody" in Japanese has always been used in native Japanese (the romanji might be a bit off...again, sorry!): Dareka, or hitokadonojinbutsu. Which one depends on the context of the sentence, really.

In short? I'm sorry to say this, but your application of "Somebody" towards "complete beings" is dead wrong. Many before have made this argument, some out of bias, some out of partial proof. I at the very least wanted to provide something solid, and present it in a convincing and sensible way. Am I asking you all to change it to something else? Yeah, I am. This is a wiki, and a wiki should pride itself on providing concrete information, and not speculation. It's a lot of work, but it's worth it. What should you change it to? Just like how "Somebody" isn't a canonical term, there really isn't a canonical term for complete beings. Sure, you could change it to "Complete Beings", but that's sort of a mouthful, and too literal. So, just go with it the standard, proven route: "Characters", or "Other Characters." I mean, it's exactly right.

In any case, I apologize for this humongous wall of text, but I was really going for something presentable and easy to understand. Everyone who has thus far argued against it has been right, but they've been wrong in their approach. I'm really hoping to change that here. --68.230.252.5 17:25, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

You forgot Axel's quote: "We Nobodies can never hope to be somebodies" Chitalian8 19:28, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Everything you've just said is a rehash of previous discussions, and your proposed solution is completely unworkable. Are you saying that Axel isn't a character? I doubt it, but that implies you haven't really thought your solution through. Furthermore, your main argument against using "somebody" is full of more speculation than what you're criticizing in the use of "somebody".

We already are well aware that "somebody" is not a fully official term, just like "Master Xehanort's Keyblade". However, it is a term used within the scripts to refer to a specific kind of thing, and we are in need of a term to describe this type of being. "Somebody" is neither speculation, nor is it "dead wrong". As we have always said, if you can provide evidence of "complete being"/"complete person"/"any other term" even being spoken within the scripts, we'll consider it. The last person we had claiming it was used swore up and down it was in one of Nomura's interviews, then buggered off when we asked him to prove it. The closest we've ever found is "humans" or "beings", which is used laughably imprecisely -- Scar is in no way a human, and the script also calls Heartless "beings". If "beings" even means anything in the series, it means "not a Nobody", which is hardly useful.

On another note, I find it laughable that you denigrate somebody as "retarded", in a series where enemy races have been known as "Unversed". Calling fulfilled people "somebodies" (a term that's, well, actually used in the real world in a similar context, as opposed to this "Heartless", "Nobody", "Unversed", "Dream Eater", etc.) is hardly the least of this series's worries with being nonsensical."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 19:43, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Lol, I do agree. However, I'm a patron of proper citations. "Somebody" is nothing more than made up crap. In any case, I feel this is relevant to share: http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Kingdom_Hearts_Wiki#.22Somebody.22_is_a_HUGE_Mistake

I'm assuming from their posts that there's some bad blood between you guys. However, I implore you to read each and every post in that discussion, as it's every bit relevant to your wiki as well. Your credibility hinges on it. Dozens of bits of misinformation and misinterpretations are flying around, and I aim to put an end to it. However you approach it, "Somebody" is not a canonical term. Hence, citing it as such is misinformation. Not to mention that "somebody symbol. It's bloody fake, and once more, misinformation. How you approach this issue will ultimately decide where your place in the community is, whether you'll be just another joke, or a valuable source of information. That's how I've set this whole thing up. --68.230.252.5 21:13, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

"Somebody" is not made up, and the symbol is from the gotdamn Ultimania. Somebody is also not cited as an official term, and is left as term for our use only. Gotdammit, if you haven't actually read either our discussions or SE's OFFICIAL BLOODY PUBLICATIONS, then please don't barge in here and tell us that we're wrong and should do whatever you say. If people who don't know what the f*** they're talking about think we don't have "credibility" because they haven't actually researched the bloody series.

That "symbol" doesn't denote "somebodies", you fool. And once more, it is NOT a canonical term. And when there ISN'T one, you don't just make shit up! Is that so bloody difficult to understand? Also, YOUR uses of the term many differ - placeholder, whatever. But when you CITE it as such, people take it at face value! It's like the motherfucker of false advertisements. You know it's wrong, but you put it up there anyway. And because of THAT, misinformation is spreading. Chain reaction much?--68.230.252.5 22:10, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Like I said earlier -- it is vital that we have something to use to refer to this type of being. "Somebody" is not nearly as official as "Heartless", no one's disputing that, but unless you can actually provide a suitable alternative, then you're not being helpful."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 21:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Lol. Do you NEED one? What you had before was perfectly fine. You saw no people complaining. However, all of the sudden, there are now TWO Wikis? I'm sorry. But even you have to realize, you're just plain wrong on this one. Here, to help out, I'll quote a commenter from KHU: "Somebodies? How about people? Just ordinary people. That word does exist in the KH universe right?" Or how about "King Mickey refers to Sora as the "human with the key." In such meaning, "Somebodies" would not be an appropriate title. They would just be considered "people," whereas Nobodies are referred to as Nobodies, only because they are, in fact of the series, Nobodies. They are also "people" at times, such as the Organization XIII, but because they are on the brink of existence, and empty shells without hearts, they must also be considered Nobodies. The same goes with the Heartless. We called Xehanort's Heartless by the name of "Ansem" in Kingdom Hearts. This virtually depicts him as a "person" who has lost his heart to the Heartless, therefore making him a Heartless, as well as an individual character simultaneously." Helpful enough? I'll admit I've exhausted my own argument. Which is exactly why I've opened the doors for others to step in. At this point, you're just being stubborn.--68.230.252.5 22:08, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Hm, I thought we used the term just for categorization of images and articles and not in the text itself. --ShardofTruth 22:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Categorization is still a form of citation. "Dialectical Materialism" is a very long word. Yet, you won't find somebody abbreviating it "dialism" for sake of categorization. You still need to use factual information. --68.230.252.5 22:56, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Mysterious Tower Battle Music BBS

Can Anyone Post the batte music "Working Together" From Birth By Sleep? Not the Kingdom Hearts II Version.

No KH3, fansites mistranslated again:

Game Informer 207;

• Bryan Vore: "Translations of your interview in the Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep Ultimania seem to confirm that Kingdom Hearts III is coming along with two other games."
• Tetsuya Nomura: "Kingdom Hearts III is not a confirmed titles. I actually phrased my answer for the Ultimania "two titles other than III" to avoid speculation that we were working on Kingdom Hearts III."
• Bryan Vore: "Are there any hints you can provide about these games?"
• Tetsuya Nomura: "Hints would give away too much, and for Kingdom Hearts we're contractually obligated to keep any information that has not been officially released under wraps. However, I can say one of the two projects mentioned above came into existence because we wanted to do something for the North American fans, so we'll be announcing it at E3."

RE: your galleries

I notice at:

http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Sora#Forms/Costumes

The galleries are normal. As you may or may not know, they really messed up the galleries, causing a lot of frustration and anger. See:

http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Sarah_Manley/Design_your_own_photo_galleries

An editor wrote:

I checked with the custom CSSs and KHWiki do not have one. Everyone else who's dissatisfied can check and see one of the example pages, because Wikia seems to have overlook this.

I wish to highlight that one of the Wikis, the Kingdom Hearts Wiki apparently managed to keep their old Wikipedia-style Gallery intact. How can they not be affected?

So how did you all doe this ? I would be dying to know because I despise the new galleries too. Please message me on my talk page with a response, or let me know when you responded here. Thank you. Anno1404 01:01, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Facebook symbol.

Organization 13 - If only the whispers at the top of the ladder carried to the bottom rung... TALK - Parley! Shouldn't there also be the Facebook symbol on the main page too because we have a page there too? http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=143194599040436&ref=ts.

Hello? Organization13 15:02, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone? Organization13 22:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

What about this? Can someone attach it onto the page? (with permission, of course)

--Axel - ^{Boo to you too!} 22:08, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

Helloooooo? Organization13 16:04, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't it say at the top of the page "share this article" with a facebook icon next to it? --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 16:29, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Beside the twitter and freenode symbol, the share the article is only for the page to be shown on your Facebook profile. Organization13 17:41, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Then I don't know. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 17:44, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

I just mean shouldn't we add the facebook symbol beside the microphone on the main page beacause we do have a facebook page? Organization13 21:01, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

October 2010

Grimreaper10000 The Terra you know will be gone forever. — 04:48, October 3, 2010 (UTC) It's already the third of the month, and there's no new Article of the Month. Did...someone just forget or something...? I cast my vote in for Xehanort...

The New Look

Im sorry Kingdom Hearts Wiki, but this new look is anoying and confusing, if you please.... CHANGE IT BACK!!!

Wikia changed it. We did nothing. File:DL VentusHaste.png⁼⁼Pea14733₌₌File:DL VentusAutoCounter.png 07:51, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well then Wikia change it back!!!

If you read the forum with all the cursing symbols in it's name, and when i say in its name i maean as it's name, you'll find that we've been trying to convince them to do just that, but they just don't wanna listen to us. and please sign your posts--ShadowsTwilight 06:06, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Command Board updating

Yeah guys, all of the Heartless contained in the box have been updated accordingly. They need to be replaced with more articles in need of repair. I wasn't sure if I was allowed to do this without a staff member... so... yeah. Have fun. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.

Question

Now that KHW has a YT page, should we link it to the main page ? Also bringing up the reminder about the Facebook group — it'd be great if we could edit just that section of the main page. ^Tambours_Tonnerre Ensemble ! 08:11, 10 February 2011 (EST)

News

I think our breaking off from Wikia has earned a mention on the news section on thi Wiki and the Wikia one. There should also definitely be a link on the Wikia-Wiki to this address. If we want thisWiki to get more traffic we need it to be more prominent on the original location.LapisLazuliScarab15:30, 12 February 2011 (EST)

Mirage Arena

Now that the Nominations are up and running and the Battle Box vote has started, shouldn't we post a link to them on the main page? AS IF! 15:57, 12 February 2011 (EST)

Yellow

LightRoxas - "I fight for the Users!" TALK - "I'm also better than you!" Why is everything that was blue now yellow? I don't have a problem with it but it makes the headers harder to see.

Erry - Deep Drive TALK - Moon shine down. ~ 15:02, 23 February 2011 (EST) I see no problems with the yellow. I can read everything perfectly.

KrytenKoro - "Hey, I want to settle down. And as soon as I find the right small group of girls, the seven or eight women who are right for me, my wandering days are over, buddy." TALK - Erry, could you help him set up personal css so that it's blue again?

LightRoxas - "I fight for the Users!" TALK - "I'm also better than you!" Actually I think it was just the computer that I was on, on my personal rig I can read everything just fine. Nevermind.

Partnership

Hey, sry if I'm in the wrong section, I want to ask you about a partnership with the KH-Wiki. It's ok if you aren't interested in anything like this, just wanted to ask you, though. Just in case I'm one of the leading administrators. Greetings Sum2k3 14:28, 19 March 2011 (EDT) Ok, i was in the wrong section.. also partnership sounds a bit wrong. xD I found the right corner to ask about affiliation. Sum2k3 04:02, 20 March 2011 (EDT)

Interviews

So, mainly spurred by EnglishJoker going around checking our unsourced statements, I went through KHInsider's archives and got links to every interview I could find (excluding a few repetitive ones). I figure it's easier to have a shortlist here rather than having to do this every time we need a source. Most involve fluff we already know now or development things, but I have them for the sake of completedness. So... here:

"The Birth of Kingdom Hearts" [1]

• Very brief interview with some information about when Nomura began development on the KH concept.

The Birth by sleep ending video [2]

• Wide variety of information, mostly relating to the secret ending video of KHIIFM, and the then-recently named characters; Terra, Aqua, and Ven.

The tone of the Kingdom Hearts series [3]

• Again, only a very brief mention of KH, but Nomura notes the difference in tone between KH and FF (the latter is darker than the former), and may indicate the somewhat darker tone Days and BBS took.

The side stories of Kingdom Hearts [4]

• Generally nothing new except for some tidbits of developmental information, except for one part where Nomura describes the then-untold “side stories” that don’t focus on Sora, including the BBS video, Mickey finding the Kingdom Key D, Roxas’ life, and Riku activity during Sora’s slumber.

Days, coded, and BBS, post-reveal [5] [6]

• Simple interviews with Nomura not long after BBS, Days, and coded were revealed.

Nomura talks Kingdom Hearts [7]

• General stuff about the series, particularly BBS, coded, and Days.

Days and coded gameplay [8]

• A brief interview discussing some gameplay for Days and coded.

BBS, Days, and coded [9]

• Three sizeable interviews about BBS, Days, and coded, covering a wide array of topics about them.

More BBS, Days, and coded [10]

• A bit less info than the above interviews, but Nomura talks about the “Unbirths” and seems to make a direct reference to the “born” part of their names. Weird.

Tidbits of BBS, Days, and coded [11]

• Tiny interviews about the three games.

BBS, Days, and coded, take two [12]

• Contains another set of fairly large interviews about the games.

New trailers and interviews [13]

• Contains brief interviews about Nomura talking about the then-recently released trailers for the three games.

New trailers and interviews… again [14]

• Same as the above.

Three games, three developers, three interviews [15]

• Nomura and two other developers are interviewed.

Nomura, no answers [16]

• Contains a brief interview where Nomura doesn’t really reveal anything new.

Nomura and Hasagawa [17]

• Contains part of an interview with Nomura and Hasagawa about the development of Days.

Long gameplay… interview? [18]

• Contains a long bit of info about Days’ gameplay. KHInsider says it’s an interview, but either they’re talking about the link to Heartstation I’m too lazy to follow or I’m just not seeing the interview part. Including it for safety.

Long, missing Ultimania interviews [19] [20]

• Should contain a long interview about BBS and coded, but the links display 404 errors.

How coded connects [21]

• Contains a brief interview about the three games, and comments on how coded links up to the rest of the series.

Big Days interview [22] [23] [24]

• A big interview about things relating to the Organization and Days. No, Nobodies don’t age.

Big BBS interview [25]

• Equally large interview about BBS with a lot of info. Including the official name of the Unversed.

Interview with Yasue [26]

• Interview with co-director Yasue about BBS.

Interview with Nomura and Yasue [27]

• Interview with Nomura and Yasue about BBS.

Nomura’s opinions on BBS [28]

• Contains a brief interview with Nomura, which is mostly his opinions about BBS.

Nomura on BBS again [29]

• More of Nomura discussing BBS, particularly emphasizing how important Braig/Xigbar is in the series.

Another missing Ultimania interview [30]

• Should contain another Ultimania interview, but instead I get another 404 error.

Yet another BBS interview [31]

• Contains what I said.

Interview with other developers [32]

• Two developers, a rare interview devoid of Nomura, discuss the development of BBS.

Post-BBS interview [33]

• Nomura talks about the steps leading up to KHIII and hints at another game after BBS and coded, and ends by making me want to throw rocks at him for not telling us anything.

Massive BBS interview [34] [35]

• Massive interview about some new revelations made in BBS.

Non-Nomura coded interview [36]

• Jun Kato discusses the development of coded and hints at it being released for systems other than phones.

Nomura, yes answers [37]

• Large interview with Nomura actually directly answering plot questions for once, mostly relating to BBS and questions it raised.

Lots and lots of answers [38]

• More of the above, but much larger and answering more questions.

Nomura is a lying liar [39]

• Short interview about BBS where Nomura comments that there won’t be a game based on the Keyblade War. But he also says that there wouldn’t be a BBSFM, so we know how good his promises are…

Another short interview [40]

• Mostly about BBS and a bit about 3D development.

3D, coded, and Pixar [41]

• Contains brief info about 3D, coded, and Nomura’s interest in bringing in Pixar characters in the future.

BBS and Re:coded [42]

• Nomura talks about the changes to the English version of BBS and Re:coded.

BBS development and design [43]

• Nomura talks about the development and design decisions behind BBS.

Nomura talks 3D [44]

• Short interview with Nomura giving a few details about KH3D’s story and whatnot.

Nomura talks BBS development [45]

• Short interview where Nomura talks about why he made some development choices in BBS, like including Zack or some of the worlds.

Nomura talks 3D [46]

• Contains a brief Youtube of Nomura talking about 3DS.

Nomura talks Re: coded development [47]

• Short interview about Re: coded.

Nomura talks 3D and BBSFM [48] [49]

• Fairly large interview with Nomura discussing KH3D & BBSFM.

Re: coded mysteries [50] [51]

• Interview with Nomura about Re: coded and the questions it raised.

3D interview [52]

• A brief interview about the future of KH.

BBSFM interview [53]

• Short interview about the changes to BBSFM from the English BBS.

Wardrobe change in 3D [54]

• Very brief tidbit about Nomura looking into Sora and Riku’s outfits changing.

Yoko Shimomura interview [55] [56]

• Change of pace with Shimomura talking about the music.

20 Mysteries of KH [57]

• Don't think I found this one earlier. It's the one dealing with the origin of Xemnas, the Org., etc.

--LapisLazuliScarab09:21, 13 July 2011 (EDT)