User talk:Christoph Schrader/Magic Page Specimen
This section explains how the spell is learnt in each game in which it appears.
If it has one, this section should include the recipe required to unlock the spell in Days or Birth By Sleep.
This section should contain where and how the spell appears in each game in the series, including a brief description of what it does when cast.
Enemies who use it
This section, self-evidently, lists enemies who use a certain sort of magic. It should be given in the order of Heartless, Nobodies, Unversed, and Bosses.
This section contains other uses of the spell's name that do not directly relate to casting it, and may include subheadings such as synthesis materials and gummy blocks.
This section contains two subsections -- one explaining its origins in the Final Fantasy series if the spell is not unique to Kingdom Hearts, and another detailing the etymology of the word, or its history as a part of the English language.
This section contains quotes by casters of the spell in question said specifically in connection with said spell, and no other quotes should be included.
This section contains, as it does anywhere else, a list of random bits of data on the subject.
Comments and Suggestions
- "semi-recurring" doesn't make sense.
- The third and fourth lines in the lead are waffling.
- The Learning lines for CoM and ReCoM are needlessly long.
- The Casting for BBS mentions Salvation, which is irrelevant.
- The bit about the Holy-G is completely irrelevant to this page, and redundant to the actual Gummi's page.
- The Angel Star bit is needless, and since it says "holy" rather than "Holy", speculative.
- The Kingdom Hearts II section is much, much too long. All it need say is that Minnie and Mickey can cast it, and possibly describe how it works.
- "Enemies who use" has always been a terrible section, and absolutely should not be on the final page.
- The "Quotes" section is pointless filler.
- The second trivia point is missing words, or placed wrong.
- The third trivia point is completely irrelevant to KH, and even if it was, it should be in the etymology.
In general, the format we have now (1) describes what the attack does in the lead, (2) describes how to get it, and (3) describes what the name means. That's all the actual information about a technique there is - as shown here, anything else you try to throw in ends up being waffling, filler, or otherwise completely irrelevant.Glorious CHAOS! 03:31, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
- No, Salvation is not relevant. Salvation will get it's own page. It does not need to be covered here. That is a major misunderstanding of how the "see also" works.
- Re:Angel Star: "Appears" is the clincher there.
- Theme, yes. "Explicitly uses this spell", no, which is why I dislike it.
- "What a technique does and how to obtain it are the basic points of information about it." - they are also pretty much all there is to say about these abilities, since they have no influence on the plot, and are purely mechanical concepts. Most anything further is waffling.
- Yes, I am tactless. It helps get people to give up faster on changing my mind.
- Let me put it this way re:etymology - any explanation of the name's history beyond where it appeared in FF or Disney is completely useless to us. Your complaint, then, boils down to "the header name does not accurately describe the contents". How would you change the header to resolve this problem?
- EDIT: New critique - the first trivia point is, by its nature, useless. It is weasel-wording (one of some that generally aren't), preventing it from being either informative or worth being the trivia section.
- You are the one who created a section for "comments and suggestions". I am trying to dissuade any work that will end up being wasted, since it is no good for either of us - you use up all your time writing something that will be left unused, and become bitter, and I have to revert the edit, wasting my time. I am sorry about this, but it is true - by and large, what you've done here will be of no use to the wiki, and criticizing me as a person is not going to change that. You can either address the criticisms of your work, or continue to spend time railing against me, but that's your decision.Glorious CHAOS! 18:14, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Your first paragraph there is largely speculation, and should not in any way be covered on the ability pages. If they would be appropriate for the character pages, that is one thing, but here, absolutely not.
- Yes, I did consider it. I also considered the fact that this is an article about something that has absolutely no relevance to the plot, has never even been mentioned by the directors, and is in there as a fun thing to do. Proportion is important as well.
- Roxas fires pillars of light. Ventus can fire pillars of divine light. Yes, there is a connection - it is mostly within the "pillars of light". Sora can fire them as well, as can Mickey.
- This is an article on an ability, not an attribute. For attributes, there are only six within the series anyway - fire, blizzard, thunder, dark, physical, nil. Days introduces some others purely as status effects, and these are covered on the status effect page. For all intents and purposes, Holy has as much in common with the Angel Star's attack as the Oblivion or Metal Chocobo's standard attacks do.
- The first trivia point is absolutely useless, as it uses weasel wording. Wikipedia explains exactly what is meant by that if you need more, but essentially, information is not worthwhile if it is wishy-washy. (See below)
- If you are unwilling to listen to my critiques because they are critical of your work, again, that is your decision. I did not criticize you, merely the material you put forth; I was trying to dissuade you from wasting your time. Continuing to attack me or attempt to embarrass my position does nothing to change my mind, and is not likely to change anyone else's - I am, and have always been, a near-soulless monster that cares naught for feelings, but only for what is right.Glorious CHAOS! 23:05, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
The first trivia point:
- "Holy is one of several spells that appear recurringly in spinoff games that are not generally castable in main-sequence games. Other such spells include Quake, Warp, and Tornado."
- This is demonstrably false. According to Nomura, KHBbS is a main-sequence game. It also appears in KH2, where the player controls its casting as a Reaction Command and when playing as Mickey. However, it does not appear in coded or Mobile, so it has 2/3 main-sequence game appearances, while only 2/4 spinoff appearances.
- "not generally castable", based on its inherent lack of definition, means that it is basically against policy as a trivia point, and even if we didn't have that policy, it would still lack any usefulness as information.()
- The "Other such spells" list is much too biased. Even if we were going for a very specific meaning of "Spells that can only be used, whenever desired, by the main character, in spinoff games", there are many more to add to that. Unfortunately, due to point 1 ("BbS is main-sequence"), none of the ones listed actually count.
In general, the trivia section is something to avoid. Anything put there must be (1) absolutely inarguable, and (2) demonstrate significant relevance and import. It is not a place to put any possible connection that one can think of.Glorious CHAOS! 23:05, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
Very sorry to intrude, but Heartless can't use Holy magic. Just because one was born of such spells and they cast similar looking magic does not mean it is that magic. Oh, and for etymology, only the origin of the spell is included. Seriously dude, we all know the meaning of the word holy. On this wiki, we don't put etymology for the meaning of words that are known by sentinent indiviuals. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.
- And wait, I thought that the gravity article was the template article for magic. KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.
- No, but here is the thing: etymology is the immediate definition. That, as such, is a FF reference. That is the only thing we need. Therefore, the meaning and origin of the word is pointless here. Oh, and we don't put the origin of the word on any other etymologies on the wiki... KRCCFNF is tired of being STEPPED ON.
First, the trivia I wish to speak about. Then I will talk about the etymology again.
- Holy is one of several spells that appear recurringly in spinoff games that are not castable in main-sequence games. Other such spells include Quake, Warp, Raging Storm, Mega-Flare, and Tornado. Rule of thumb is that it must be unique to be trivia. Besides, this speaks of non KH games.
- Although it often has an attribute of its own in Final Fantasy titles, Holy has no attribute in the Kingdom Hearts series. It doesn't have an attribute because it was never actually a castable spell. In CoM it was a slight (not a spell). In BbS, it is a Deck Command (I'm not sure if other spells are deck commands or not).
Ah, on to etymology.
Dictionary.com reads: –noun, plural -gies.
- the derivation of a word.
- an account of the history of a particular word or element of a word.
- the study of historical linguistic change, esp. as manifested in individual words.
Examples on the wiki that lead to the second definition:
In fact, I'm not going to list any more. If you look at any weapon article with etymology (magic is a weapon), you will find not the origin of the actual words, but the reference of their names.