Talk:Gargoyle Knight
I'm opening the discussion here, but it actually refers to the other Heartless variants as well. On the main Heartless page, the various types of Gargoyles are put on the same level as possessed sentient entities (toys, Riku, Baymax, and so on), which in my opinion... is wrong. Gargoyles are non-sentient statues that have become Heartless, and I think there is a huge misunderstanding on the part of the community regarding the nature of these Heartless. Many believe they are alive because of the Possessors, because of their death animation in KH2 (which by the way, is an animation that only applies to the Knight and the Warrior, the others have never been seen anything like it and to say that the same thing applies is speculation), but I think almost no one has stopped to examine in detail the creature that comes out of them once they are killed. The being that comes out is very different from the Possessors, while the Possessors are spiked gas balls with a zigzag mouth, the being that comes out of them is black amorphous gas with no features except for the eyes. Here is a picture: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/khwita/images/c/c3/Servitore_Oscuro.png/revision/latest?cb=20181108210639&path-prefix=it
These are the same creatures summoned by the Dark Thorn, Hydra, and Mushroom 10. The attack in which these creatures are summoned is called "Dark Servant" (which I think is the closest thing to an official name for these supposed Heartless).
I would suggest checking and modifying accordingly.
Also (this is unrelated but I think it's worth mentioning), in KH2 the enemies in the game files are classified as Heartless, Nobody or neither (Somebody) in order to level up the Drive Forms, I was wondering if anyone had a way to datamine the most controversial enemies and bosses in this area, such as the Scar's Ghost or normal Scar, given all the context behind it, since in my opinion Scar in the boss fight is not yet a Heartless, but is on the verge of becoming one, while Scar's Ghost is already a Heartless. It is also true that they might not be labeled as such since in the Pride Lands the Drive Forms are not usable, but at that point, none of the world-exclusive enemies would be, so I would recommend seeing if Groundshaker is classified as a Heartless or not in the data, so as to remove the doubt if they have excluded the Pride Lands enemies altogether or if they have classified them all in that way, giving us more concrete information.
Same thing for KH3, since Donald and Goofy have weapons with abilities that increase damage against Heartless and Nobody, implying that in the game data at least the enemies (it remains to be seen if the bosses too) have data that classifies them in this way (maybe even the Unversed, but since there are no abilities in this regard, I doubt it), this is to remove any doubt regarding how the pre-KH3 Replicas should be classified, since in 358 Vexen defines them as Nobodies, and honestly... if their creator defines them in this way... I don't see why we should doubt their nature.--151.43.201.78 08:41, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
- I can answer the KH3 part pretty easily (I'll have to look into the KH2 stuff, it might be more difficult). That game gives each enemy a "biological type" in the files. Most of the edge cases (like Replica Xehanorts, Vanitas, Xion) are given a special "Unknown" type, rather than the normal Heartless, Nobody, Unversed, or Human. However, all of the toys that are possessed by Marionettes – including Angelic Amber – are counted as Heartless. (They also count for Marionette kills in the journal.)
- As for these little guys that come out of the statues, while I agree that it's probably the same model as the Hydra and Dark Thorn attacks, I don't believe that it's an intentional connection. It is more likely a generic "ball of darkness" model that was reused in several places to save time and resources. —Aid1043 14:46, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
- Isn't it a bit arbitrary to say "oh yeah, they use this model to save time" when they could have used the same animation used for the Possessor when the Thresholder ran out of HP? Also because... I seriously doubt that the Possessor needs that much work to make those animations (especially considering they had to do them for the "Dark Servant" anyway). I think it's better to rely on the objective information you have, rather than making assumptions about using one model over another without tangible proof that this is in fact the case.--151.57.30.164 15:53, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't think I was clear. I didn't mean to imply anything about whether or not those Heartless are the same as the Possessor. I'm just saying I doubt that there was any intention to link the Hydra, Dark Thorn, and Mushroom 10 together in a meaningful way.
- Also, I'm in agreement that the mobile game variations (Chocolate Gargoyle, Gargoyle Wizard, etc.) have no reason to be labeled as "possessed". In fact, their infoboxes in their individual articles already classify them as normal Heartless, so regular Heartless page is just out-of-date. Fixed. —Aid1043 16:39, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
- Isn't it a bit arbitrary to say "oh yeah, they use this model to save time" when they could have used the same animation used for the Possessor when the Thresholder ran out of HP? Also because... I seriously doubt that the Possessor needs that much work to make those animations (especially considering they had to do them for the "Dark Servant" anyway). I think it's better to rely on the objective information you have, rather than making assumptions about using one model over another without tangible proof that this is in fact the case.--151.57.30.164 15:53, 21 April 2025 (UTC)
