Forum:Dream Eater attack pages

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Forums: Index > The World that Never was > Dream Eater attack pages

TheSilentHero Prepare yourself! — 18:15, 15 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm planning on writing the Dream Eater attack pages soon and add descriptions by checking the moves in-game. I just have a few questions before I get started:
  1. What will the attacks be called? Attacks, techniques, abilities, commands? This is not only for the pages themselves, but also for the name of the page for Chef Kyroo's Red Hot Chili attack, as we already have a page called that. So, should it be "Red Hot Chili (Ability)", or "Red Hot Chili (Command)", or "Red Hot Chili (Attack)", or something else?
  2. Some attacks are separated in normal combat, but grouped together in Flick Rush, like Aura Lion's Left Claw and Right Claw (Claw Combo), or Sir Kyroo's Ribbit Blade, Ribbit Strike, and Ribbit Spike (Ribbit Combo). Do we want separate pages for each attack, or group them together on one page as well?

Commands, probably. And separate pages, with youmay or disambig links."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 06:50, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
Are they actually called commands? What are they called in the pause menu or in the Ultimania? TheFifteenthMember 17:40, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
The Ultimania calls them 技, which translates to technique, art, or skill (according to Jisho). I don't think they are called anything in-game. However, most of the magic attacks are also commands for Sora and Riku.
Another question: should the required dispositions be listed in the Learning section or the Mechanics section, or somewhere else?
For the page about the combo attacks, should the lead just say which attacks make up the combo and link to them, or should it just describe what the attack does, and link to the individual attacks in a See also section? TheSilentHero 18:08, 16 December 2015 (UTC)
They don't really need to be "called" commands - the type of thing they are is a command, small c. If they are given an official name, we can change that.
Dispositions should be in Mechanics -- learning is only for obtaining the ability in the first place, not in activating it.
If the combo exists of exactly those pieces, then it should link to them. If it's just a replacement for those pieces, it should have a see also."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 20:39, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

Except they're not similar to commands; they're not like the menu commands from core games or deck commands. The word "command" implies an input (from the player) is needed, which isn't true here. It's mostly a nitpicked issue but we should refer to them as attacks, which is the best description of what they are. Also, I think the dispositions should be covered under obtainment. How to find and equip the ability is more relevant to obtainment than the mechanics of the actual attack itself. TheFifteenthMember 21:25, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Find is not the same as equip. If the only thing preventing the use of a skill is the Disposition, which can be changed at will (more or less), then it should be in Mechanics. (Also, if we don't include Disposition in the obtainment of Abilities from the Ability Link, why should we include it here?)
I would propose "skill" if you need a word for it. It's a decent catch-all. --Neumannz, The Dark Falcon 22:48, 17 December 2015 (UTC)
Although I agree that calling them "commands" may not be 100% correct, it may be easier to call them that, as almost all magic attacks are the same as the magic commands, and some of the pages for those end with "(Command)", which causes inconsistency if we're also getting pages that end with "(Skill)". And if they're not commands, should they be on those pages?
I made a template which can be used in the Mechanics section to display when a Dream Eater can use a certain attack here. What do you think?
Also, we should definitely include Dispositions in Ability Link obtainment. TheSilentHero 13:37, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
We could include Dispositions if the Ability is locked to that Disposition, but otherwise it just becomes a mess."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 14:34, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Checking the game now. They are called commands in the Flick Rush menu. TheSilentHero 14:37, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
In addition, "command" doesn't necessarily mean the player is controlling it -- the way the series has used it so far, it would include basically any "active" ability, including the ally action abilities, sleights, or boss attacks. The Command system, similar to what is used in Crisis Core, would basically include anything the characters do -- or, somewhat cynically, anything we can make a gif of. I think we'd be best served by using (command) as a parser for active abilities, and reserve (ability) for passives."We're werewolves, not swearwolves." (KrytenKoro) 15:20, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
TheSilentHero — 11:39, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
So we now have established the following things:
  • Attacks should be called commands.
  • Combo attacks and the individual attacks should have separate pages, and combo attacks should link to the individual attacks.

That still leaves the following:

  • For category: should the attacks be called attack commands/magic commands or something like Dream Eater commands, or just commands?
  • Does anyone have any objections to using the table for showing the dispositions in the Mechanics section?

TheFifteenthMember Yes. You're creepy. I can't say we'll miss you while you're gone, so it'd be best if you did go. We all win that way. TheFifteenthMember 00:46, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
As far as I know, ally action abilities, sleights, or boss attacks have never been commands. Ally action abilities are exactly that, action abilities. Sleights aren't commands, they're part of the card system. And boss attacks are pretty much in the same situation as DE attacks. So far, the series have used commands to let the player use any type of technique. I've never seen commands be associated with party members and they barely exist in CoM's card system. In my opinion, pages for active abilities should be titled with "(technique)", an all-encompassing term that covers commands, action abilities, cards, sleights and attacks.

Specific to this case, I accept Dream Eater attacks being commands after TSH's evidence. Concerning categories, the attacks are grouped by different icons in the stats menu so there could be many types of Dream Eater commands, just like how there's different deck commands.

KrytenKoro - "That's when we bumped into Hannity. Sean Hannity. See the thing about this dude is, at first he's fair, right? And you're like "Wow!" But then BOOM. The dude's balanced, too. And you're like, HOLY SHIT."
What I meant was that the things the series has called "commands" would imply that those others would be included -- it's fundamentally the same system as sleights, choosing to activate a preprogrammed technique rather than having to do combos like in a fighting game; however, bosses in BbS, etc., definitely have commands with cooldown time, etc. I don't see the need to add a new parser, "Technique", when they've been consistently using "command" for what is recognizably the same thing in the last few games. It's a lot like Serenity -- the Japanese material generally calls them "Commands" or a variation on "techniques" (since CoM, in fact), while the English material goes through a variety of names. It's still the same system.

As far as categorization, do the icons for the Dream Eater commands signify type or element? I can't remember. If they don't signify type, then we can't really make a claim on it, and we'd have to go with "Dream Eater commands" for each one, including ones that Sora/Riku can also use. If they do, then they don't need a separate category.

TheSilentHero Arcfire! — 15:55, 21 December 2015 (UTC)
In-game they have icons for elements (Attack commands show the same icon in the stat menu, but the actual element in FR menu.) The Ultimania uses black text for attack commands and green text for magic commands.

KrytenKoro - "Because I knew something he didn't. I knew that I was lying. Seriously, sir. 'No silicon heaven'? Where would all of the calculators go?"
If we have the ultimania for it, that's good enough for me. No need for a new category.
TheSilentHero - Shield! — 18:48, 23 December 2015 (UTC)
I've started creating the pages. If there is something that needs to be changed, please let me know in time, so I don't have to go back and change them all again.

TheSilentHero used Water Shuriken! It's not very effective... — 14:29, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
More questions: should I create separate (Command) pages for attacks like Drain, since the current page is about the passive ability, and if so, should that page stay as Drain or be moved to Drain (ability)? And what should be done about Elixir? It is an evolved command in Flick Rush, so should it get a separate (Command) page? Technically, the Elixir is an item command in KH3D already, so I don't know if it's necessary.

TheFifteenthMember Yes. You're creepy. I can't say we'll miss you while you're gone, so it'd be best if you did go. We all win that way. TheFifteenthMember 15:25, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
I'd say yes to separate Drive pages, but no to a separate Elixir page.
TheSilentHero — 17:40, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
So, should the current pages for attacks like Drain be moved to Drain (ability), while Drain will be a disambig page, or should it stay as it is?

KrytenKoro - "It's always best when the other chap is willing to die for his beliefs; you both have the same goal in mind."
Isn't the command version essentially the same as the passive version? I don't see a good reason to cover them as split pages, since the quick summary would be the same -- an ability that drains HP from the target and rewards it to the user.

I don't really think we should split things with the same names unless they are clearly different concepts, like Diamond Dust the ability and Diamond Dust the physical object.