Talk:Main Page

Line 5:

* [[Talk:Kingdom Hearts Wiki|Present]]

}}

=="Somebody" is a HUGE Mistake!==

Normally, I would've pasted this here: http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Category_talk:Somebody Buuut...nobody really pays attention to that talk page anymore.

It's been argued left and right about the validity of using "Somebody" as a canonical reference for complete beings. I'll just get right to my own personal bias: It sounds bloody retarded. But I'm not here to flaunt my own personal experience, I'm here to question it's validity, and provide some nice evidence against it - both '''solid''', ''and'' '''contextual'''.

The first bout of evidence I will provide is contextual, since it makes for a more intellectual argument. Here are ''exact'' quotes from the games:

1-Roxas: "If I had a heart...would that make me somebody?" (358/2 Days)

2-Roxas: "If I had a heart, you think I could love somebody?" (358/2 Days)

3-Larxene: "Rewrite Sora's heart, and you can be somebody, not just the shadow of somebody." (CoM)

4-Larxene: "Then you can actually be somebody---and no longer just Kairi's shadow." (Re:Com)

I looked through all the transcripts of the game dialogue, and these are all the ones I found relevant to the context of which "Somebody" is referred. I might've missed one or two, but I doubt very much they're all that different. So, in the contextual argument, why is "Somebody" an incorrect reference? It all lies in the English language, and sentence structure, actually. In context of individual sentences, "somebody" is almost always referred to in the same sense as "living a life" is ("I wanna make lotsa munny! I WANNA BE SOMEBODY!"). In that same sense, we don't refer to people as the "Alive" or "Living", just because they're in their own way living a fulfilling life. Sure, they're exactly that, "living", but we do have terminology that focuses on specificity. In the same, "somebody" is always used as a metaphorical allegory in the context of the story. Not to mention, Roxas's own interpretation: Early on in the game, he takes the name "Nobody" quite literally, to where Zexion further expands on it, and simply tells him that an incomplete being is referred to as that. As common sense dictates, if you were to ask yourself a question opposite of the answer, you would use wording that's the exact opposite of the terminology you're familiar with ("If I'm a Nobody now...would I be somebody later?"). Not to mention, the general application of "Somebody" is far too literal. Take a look at quote #4. With an equivalent literal application, would that make Namine Kairi's literal shadow? I thought she just a Nobody? Now she's a Shadow? Same thing, really. A deeper look into the context ''outside'' of the single sentence is required for full understanding before application. Not to mention, Nobodies, Heartless, Unversed, and Dream Eaters all have one magical thing preceding the names: Count nouns, and plurals! "A", "the", they", "them", etc etc. "Somebody" has I believe only once had a count noun preceding it, and even then, it was used in a metaphorical context. Not once has been referred in a plural sense in any of the games. "A Nobody." "The Heartless." "The Unversed." "An Unversed." "A Heartless." "Nobodies." Need I go on?

Now, that was contextual evidence...largely based on a deeper understanding of English, as well as sentence structure, more importantly. The '''solid''' evidence? I'll let a certain dialogue exchange from Days do the talking:

(Day 10 Mission - The first mission with Zexion)

Zexion: "Roxas, you and I and all the Organization's members are what we call

Nobodies."

Roxas: "Well, that's not very nice."

Zexion: "With a capital N. It's a name, for those of us who are missing a vital

piece of who we are: our hearts."

Roxas: "I don't have a heart?"

Capitalization! Heartless, Nobodies, Unversed, and Dream Eaters, all contain capitalized first letters! Once again, it denotes ''naming''. Not once has somebody ever been capitalized in the games outside of the word being the first word in a sentence, and in every one of those instances, it was used a ''terribly different'' context ("Somebody's comin'!"). That right there should be the biggest alarm bell. The second solid proof? Japanese pronunciations. If every one of the games, Heartless, Nobodies, Unversed, and Dream Eaters, are all written in Japanese in a way that they're pronounced in their roman forms: Hātoresu, Nōbadi, Anvāsu, Dorīmu ītā. In short, it's the opposite of Romanji (Don't really know the technical term of pronouncing Latin phonics in Japanese...sorry!). However, the application of "somebody" in Japanese has always been used in native Japanese (the romanji might be a bit off...again, sorry!): Dareka, or hitokadonojinbutsu. Which one depends on the context of the sentence, really.

In short? I'm sorry to say this, but your application of "Somebody" towards "complete beings" is '''dead wrong'''''Italic text''. Many before have made this argument, some out of bias, some out of partial proof. I at the very least wanted to provide something solid, and present it in a ''convincing and sensible way''. Am I asking you all to change it to something else? Yeah, I am. This is a wiki, and a wiki should pride itself on providing ''concrete information'', and ''not speculation''. It's a lot of work, but it's worth it. What should you change it to? Just like how "Somebody" isn't a canonical term, there really isn't a canonical term for complete beings. Sure, you ''could'' change it to "Complete Beings", but that's sort of a mouthful, and too literal. So, just go with it the standard, proven route: "Characters", or "Other Characters." I mean, it's ''exactly right''.

In any case, I apologize for this humongous wall of text, but I was really going for something presentable and easy to understand. Everyone who has thus far argued against it has been right, but they've been wrong in their approach. I'm really hoping to change that here. --[[Special:Contributions/68.230.252.5|68.230.252.5]] 17:25, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

== Mysterious Tower Battle Music BBS ==

Talk:Main Page: Difference between revisions

Navigation menu

Page actions

Page actions

Personal tools

Navigation

Search

Community

Tools

@@ Line 5: / Line 5: @@
 * [[Talk:Kingdom Hearts Wiki|Present]]
 }}
+=="Somebody" is a HUGE Mistake!==
+Normally, I would've pasted this here:  http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Category_talk:Somebody  Buuut...nobody really pays attention to that talk page anymore.
+It's been argued left and right about the validity of using "Somebody" as a canonical reference for complete beings.  I'll just get right to my own personal bias:  It sounds bloody retarded.  But I'm not here to flaunt my own personal experience, I'm here to question it's validity, and provide some nice evidence against it - both '''solid''', ''and'' '''contextual'''.
+The first bout of evidence I will provide is contextual, since it makes for a more intellectual argument.  Here are ''exact'' quotes from the games:
+-Roxas: "If I had a heart...would that make me somebody?"  (358/2 Days)
+-Roxas: "If I had a heart, you think I could love somebody?"  (358/2 Days)
+-Larxene: "Rewrite Sora's heart, and you can be somebody, not just the shadow of somebody." (CoM)
+-Larxene: "Then you can actually be somebody---and no longer just Kairi's shadow." (Re:Com)
+I looked through all the transcripts of the game dialogue, and these are all the ones I found relevant to the context of which "Somebody" is referred.  I might've missed one or two, but I doubt very much they're all that different.  So, in the contextual argument, why is "Somebody" an incorrect reference?  It all lies in the English language, and sentence structure, actually.  In context of individual sentences, "somebody" is almost always referred to in the same sense as "living a life" is ("I wanna make lotsa munny!  I WANNA BE SOMEBODY!").  In that same sense, we don't refer to people as the "Alive" or "Living", just because they're in their own way living a fulfilling life.  Sure, they're exactly that, "living", but we do have terminology that focuses on specificity.  In the same, "somebody" is always used as a metaphorical allegory in the context of the story.  Not to mention, Roxas's own interpretation:  Early on in the game, he takes the name "Nobody" quite literally, to where Zexion further expands on it, and simply tells him that an incomplete being is referred to as that.  As common sense dictates, if you were to ask yourself a question opposite of the answer, you would use wording that's the exact opposite of the terminology you're familiar with ("If I'm a Nobody now...would I be somebody later?").  Not to mention, the general application of "Somebody" is far too literal.  Take a look at quote #4.  With an equivalent literal application, would that make Namine Kairi's literal shadow?  I thought she just a Nobody?  Now she's a Shadow?  Same thing, really.  A deeper look into the context ''outside'' of the single sentence is required for full understanding before application.  Not to mention, Nobodies, Heartless, Unversed, and Dream Eaters all have one magical thing preceding the names:  Count nouns, and plurals!  "A", "the", they", "them", etc etc.  "Somebody" has I believe only once had a count noun preceding it, and even then, it was used in a metaphorical context.  Not once has been referred in a plural sense in any of the games.  "A Nobody."  "The Heartless."  "The Unversed." "An Unversed."  "A Heartless."  "Nobodies."  Need I go on?
+Now, that was contextual evidence...largely based on a deeper understanding of English, as well as sentence structure, more importantly.  The '''solid''' evidence?   I'll let a certain dialogue exchange from Days do the talking:
+(Day 10 Mission - The first mission with Zexion)
+Zexion: "Roxas, you and I and all the Organization's members are what we call
+Nobodies."
+Roxas: "Well, that's not very nice."
+Zexion: "With a capital N. It's a name, for those of us who are missing a vital
+piece of who we are: our hearts."
+Roxas: "I don't have a heart?"
+Capitalization!  Heartless, Nobodies, Unversed, and Dream Eaters, all contain capitalized first letters!  Once again, it denotes ''naming''.  Not once has somebody ever been capitalized in the games outside of the word being the first word in a sentence, and in every one of those instances, it was used a ''terribly different'' context ("Somebody's comin'!").  That right there should be the biggest alarm bell.  The second solid proof?  Japanese pronunciations.  If every one of the games, Heartless, Nobodies, Unversed, and Dream Eaters, are all written in Japanese in a way that they're pronounced in their roman forms:  Hātoresu, Nōbadi, Anvāsu, Dorīmu ītā.  In short, it's the opposite of Romanji (Don't really know the technical term of pronouncing Latin phonics in Japanese...sorry!).  However, the application of "somebody" in Japanese has always been used in native Japanese (the romanji might be a bit off...again, sorry!):  Dareka, or hitokadonojinbutsu.  Which one depends on the context of the sentence, really.
+In short?  I'm sorry to say this, but your application of "Somebody" towards "complete beings" is '''dead wrong'''''Italic text''.  Many before have made this argument, some out of bias, some out of partial proof.  I at the very least wanted to provide something solid, and present it in a ''convincing and sensible way''.  Am I asking you all to change it to something else?  Yeah, I am.  This is a wiki, and a wiki should pride itself on providing ''concrete information'', and ''not speculation''.  It's a lot of work, but it's worth it.  What should you change it to?  Just like how "Somebody" isn't a canonical term, there really isn't a canonical term for complete beings.  Sure, you ''could'' change it to "Complete Beings", but that's sort of a mouthful, and too literal.  So, just go with it the standard, proven route:  "Characters", or "Other Characters."  I mean, it's ''exactly right''.
+In any case, I apologize for this humongous wall of text, but I was really going for something presentable and easy to understand.  Everyone who has thus far argued against it has been right, but they've been wrong in their approach.  I'm really hoping to change that here.  --[[Special:Contributions/68.230.252.5|68.230.252.5]] 17:25, October 8, 2011 (UTC)
 == Mysterious Tower Battle Music BBS ==