Editing Forum:Strict Official Image Policy?

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}
{{sticky}}
<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with either your talk page template or four tildes ~~~~ -->
{{Bluer|01:25, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|Went for a read in the "Guide for New Members". One of the sentences say "the Kingdom Hearts Wiki has a strict official image only policy."  I interpret this as being non-free fair-use images only. There's inconsistency in the way images are handled in this wiki. Let's see if I can list the points here:
#Official image. When that happens it invokes fair-use. And fair-use limits how we use these images.
#Free images aren't allowed because of past user behavior. Wikia encourages free images, and requests limit on non-free images.
#*However, lots of fair-use images aren't being used based on the limitation. Talk template, notification templates, all go against fair use.
#*Furthermore, fair-use images are removed from articlespace for being redundant (in the case of artwork and render), clutter (although organized in a gallery) and would violate fair-use (although described in a caption). 

See how inconsistent we are? Anyone has an argument against these issues? 

So, guys and girls, images violating fair-use would be replaced. Note that this is an accumulation to the image policy we have here. Really sorry everyone, but this issue has been going on for a very long time already.

Images that will be purged include:
*Files appended with a Public Domain template, but isn't because they use fair-use material.
*Files appended with one of the non-free, copyright templates but not used as intended.
*Files categorized as User Image but not originally created by the user.
}}

==Discussion==
{{neumannz|time=02:15, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|text=What exactly do you mean by "User Image not originally created by the user"? Does it include images created by users for other users?}}
{{Bluer|02:18, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|Oh yeah, that wasn't clear, was it? An "originally created by the user" image would be 100% drawn or made by the user. No copyrighted images, no cropping from non-free images etc. An image drawn by other users is okay as long as they're credited.}}
{{neumannz|time=02:30, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|text=So what about my talkbubble image? It was made from a fair use-classified image which was edited by me.}}
{{Bluer|02:34, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|It is a violation of fair use, sorry to say, and it's not even appended with a copyright template. Correct fair-use images are when these images are used to describe or illustrate the subject in an article. 

You can say mine violates fair-use as well, and you are right. However, that image is in Photobucket, which still is an option for all of us.}}
{{KrytenKoro|Just to state my opinions on our image policy, none of which are legal-based:
*We absolutely cannot allow fanart in the mainspace. This isn't hypochondria, either - several articles, such as Xehanort's Keyblade, Fresh Breeze, Vanitas's Keyblade, Paopu Fruit, kept getting hit with (often ''very'' inaccurate) fanart, and when I tried to remove it from the page, we'd get vitriol. Cutting the beast off at the head is really the only solution.
*Fanart in the userspace seems fine to me, as long as it is clearly categorized as fanart.
*For images on articles, both because of fair use and simple aesthetics, there's no need to have any images that don't illustrate necessary differences. We don't need official artwork if we have a CGI render of the same exact thing, we don't need various poses, and most screenshots are superfluous unless they illustrate something unique. For example, the screenshot of Vanitas taking his mask off, while a climactic moment, does not illustrate anything more than his face, which is already in his CGI render. However, while it may not exactly be fair use compliant, I'm personally fine with using the galleries for extra images.
*For the avatar images - I know that in many cases, SE has released free images specifically meant for user avatars in forums, as publicity. In fact, KH Mobile is almost solely for this purpose, and the avatars are also available for free on their website. While I certainly see how it may be un-kosher to use game rips or such for banal tasks like talkboxes, it should be okay to use the released avatars, since SE released them for that purpose. That, and pure original characters.

So, are you basically suggesting we move all user images to photobucket, where we can pretend we don't have jurisdiction to police them for fair use? I can agree with that, kind of.}}
{{Bluer|04:27, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|Thanks for sharing!
*It is an alternative, as I said, for the talk bubble, or one can actually consider using free-use or public domain images instead. That's what the User Image category was created for in the first place. A good example would be Yuanchosaan's talk template, which is fanart for personal use (needs copyright template tho). If we're cutting all free-use images off the site, then there shouldn't be exceptions. If we're being considerate, then a fanart/user image should also be uploaded for a purpose eg in talk bubbles or userpage profile pics; that said, two userspace image is enough.
*If it's considered that official artwork are redundant then deletion is imminent. Keeping these fair-use images without a purpose isn't fair-use compliant. Galleryspace can be stretching fair-use if they're just there to gather files - I'm pretty sure this Wiki isn't supposed to be a file storage for non-free images.
*Pleased to hear SE releasing free images for use. That should lessen our burden somewhat. If they're indeed free-use they should be marked as such and/or a user image. That and pure original characters.
*No to fanart on mainspace. That has been established; we don't have notable fan content, so there's no need for them.
}}
{{iZerox|time=06:01, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|mad=Now maybe I don't understand everything your saying here. But the thing I like about this wiki the most is that it has an abundance of images. Both the CGI renders, screeenshots, and official concept art. All this really helps you to know what it is the page is talking about. From the sounds of what your saying it appears you want to remove the larger portion of it. Including notifications at the top of the pages with the XIII members stating what needs fixed or improved. And I'll be honest those really add a lot to the wiki, I'd hate to see them go. As far as user talk images go mine are custom created in photoshop to mimic the style of 358/2's sprites. Are you trying to say I can't use images for my talk bubbles that I put several hours into making just because it represents a character from the game this wiki is about? I get the whole no fan art stuff in the main articles and I totally agree. But to downsize on what we have of official images and the like just because you've suddenly decided it's not quite fitting fair use sounds irrational to me.

There are countless other sites out there that use these same images in abundance and even intermittent with modified official images. And yet these site's have never been persecuted because of it. I fail to see the reasoning behind all this nitpicking when you yourself said your user talk image could be considered a violation based on how your interpreting things.

Besides it's specifically stated that only a legal authority can determine when and where fair-use applies. I hardly see it as our area to be making decisions on. I realize your the admin and all but we have to keep things reasonable.}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=07:49, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|talk=Bluer, could you also please define what exactly an official image is on this wiki. That would really help in this discussion.}}
{{Bluer|08:41, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|Fair-use isn't a decision made suddenly and made by me alone. Remember that we are under Wikia, bound by its terms of use, including the content on our pages. Official images are copyrighted images released by the copyright holder, and that would be Square Enix. We are using their images which are from their intellectual property; property of which they have legal rights to. To use them, we declare fair use; declaration that we are only using the copyrighted items for educational or commentary purposes, if not we pay them to use the images. That is my understanding of official images and fair use, and if there's a mistake, please tell me.

Wikia works under a free content license. Since we're under Wikia, that's how we work, countless other sites notwithstanding. You're not alone in thinking those images are pleasant to look at, but aesthetics are the least of our worries.}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=10:10, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|talk=I think I got that. But still I have a problem with the term: "officially released". If we stretch the term it includes the games as a whole. Also because free use is also strechable term, it's used very differently on different wikis.<br>
For example:
*[[w:c:finalfantasy:Final_Fantasy_Wiki:Media|Final Fantasy Wiki Media Guidelines]] and the [[w:c:finalfantasy:Final_Fantasy_Wiki:Copyrights|Copyrights]]
*[[w:c:WoW:WoWWiki:Images_policy|WoW Wiki Image Policy]] and the [[w:c:WoW:WoWWiki:Copyright_policy|Copyright Policy]] (they have a model viewer case too)
In the end we have to set our own guidelines accordingly to Square Enix's legal policy. Sadly I haven't found anything substantial about that, but here is something about the use of [http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=902&la=1&tag=authc materials of FFIX].}}
{{Bluer|11:07, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|Let me clarify my stance since the discussion now goes way beyond the points I wrote on top. 
*Fair-use images to be used with a purpose, not from being mere decoration to an article, ie. illustrating subject in question, or merely collected in a galleryspace as if this wiki is a file storage (it's not). Fair-use images remain unaltered ie as they are released by copyright holder
*Free-use fanart and user images to be allowed in userspace, with fair restrictions. Talktemplate images should either be a free-use image or hosted elsewhere (this is a cheat, a workaround, since Wikia discourages non-free content).

A note on WoWWiki's model viewer policy: Blizzard did release its official model viewer, but even then WoWWiki restricts model viewer images in favor of true screenshots. Unfortunately for KH, there's no official model viewers.}}

{{iZerox|time=16:32, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|text=There may not be an official model viewer but there are at least 3 different model viewers released by 3rd parties. And methods of viewing actual models from the games with animation. Images such as these are produced that way:
<gallery>
File: Anti_paranoids.png|This images is using animations directly from the game to illustrate what Anti-Form looks like in Space Paranoids.
File: SoraAntiTimeless.png|And this image is just an unanimated render of the actual model from Timeless River. But it still shows what Timeless River Anti-Form looks like.</gallery>

Such images are not merely decoration they help illustrate the subject material for a greater understanding. And being that they're screenshots directly from official material they're just as official as the scans (physical screenshots) we take of images in magazines. Such images should be permitted as they are hardly just clutter.}}
{{BebopKate|time=04:14, August 14, 2010 (UTC)|text=Bluer, do you have an example of a wiki with an image policy similar to what you're proposing?  Some of us do better with examples than explanations... ^_^

And a couple of minor, quibbly concerns.  The only issue I have with Photobucket I have is that it does have a limited amount of bandwidth per day, which is why talk bubbles were still allowed on the wiki.  I doubt any of us have talk bubbles accessed that often, but I am curious if it has been a concern on other places that use this set-up.

My main concern with fanart is not editors here making and posting their own, but rather misguided ones who see the word "fanart" and just take it as an invitation to post collections of others' works without crediting the source properly; I've seen it happen far too much in general.  The policy Shard of Truth posted from the FF Wiki is a good guideline to go by, and we should adopt something similar should user fanart be allowed, but it still leaves me wondering if it will be a big issue down the line.}}
@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}
+{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}
+{{sticky}}
 <!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with either your talk page template or four tildes ~~~~ -->
 {{Bluer|01:25, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|Went for a read in the "Guide for New Members". One of the sentences say "the Kingdom Hearts Wiki has a strict official image only policy."  I interpret this as being non-free fair-use images only. There's inconsistency in the way images are handled in this wiki. Let's see if I can list the points here:
@@ Line 48: / Line 49: @@
 {{ShardofTruth|time=10:10, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|talk=I think I got that. But still I have a problem with the term: "officially released". If we stretch the term it includes the games as a whole. Also because free use is also strechable term, it's used very differently on different wikis.<br>
 For example:
-*[[finalfantasy:Final_Fantasy_Wiki:Media|Final Fantasy Wiki Media Guidelines]] and the [[finalfantasy:Final_Fantasy_Wiki:Copyrights|Copyrights]]
+*[[w:c:finalfantasy:Final_Fantasy_Wiki:Media|Final Fantasy Wiki Media Guidelines]] and the [[w:c:finalfantasy:Final_Fantasy_Wiki:Copyrights|Copyrights]]
-*[[wikia:WoW:WoWWiki:Images_policy|WoW Wiki Image Policy]] and the [[wikia:WoW:WoWWiki:Copyright_policy|Copyright Policy]] (they have a model viewer case too)
+*[[w:c:WoW:WoWWiki:Images_policy|WoW Wiki Image Policy]] and the [[w:c:WoW:WoWWiki:Copyright_policy|Copyright Policy]] (they have a model viewer case too)
 In the end we have to set our own guidelines accordingly to Square Enix's legal policy. Sadly I haven't found anything substantial about that, but here is something about the use of [http://support.na.square-enix.com/rule.php?id=902&la=1&tag=authc materials of FFIX].}}
 {{Bluer|11:07, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|Let me clarify my stance since the discussion now goes way beyond the points I wrote on top.
@@ Line 58: / Line 59: @@
 {{iZerox|time=16:32, August 13, 2010 (UTC)|text=There may not be an official model viewer but there are at least 3 different model viewers released by 3rd parties. And methods of viewing actual models from the games with animation. Images such as these are produced that way:
-<!--
 <gallery>
 File: Anti_paranoids.png|This images is using animations directly from the game to illustrate what Anti-Form looks like in Space Paranoids.
 File: SoraAntiTimeless.png|And this image is just an unanimated render of the actual model from Timeless River. But it still shows what Timeless River Anti-Form looks like.</gallery>
--->
 Such images are not merely decoration they help illustrate the subject material for a greater understanding. And being that they're screenshots directly from official material they're just as official as the scans (physical screenshots) we take of images in magazines. Such images should be permitted as they are hardly just clutter.}}
@@ Line 70: / Line 69: @@
 My main concern with fanart is not editors here making and posting their own, but rather misguided ones who see the word "fanart" and just take it as an invitation to post collections of others' works without crediting the source properly; I've seen it happen far too much in general.  The policy Shard of Truth posted from the FF Wiki is a good guideline to go by, and we should adopt something similar should user fanart be allowed, but it still leaves me wondering if it will be a big issue down the line.}}
-{{The Inexistent|text='''Well, the admins are going to start focusing all their attention from removing the non free user images that are in use in several different places.  Meanwhile, the thousands of images in the unused images category, many of which are duplicates, low quality, and have no place to fit in on the wiki, are going to stay in the backlog.'''
-'''And what of userbox images?  I highly doubt some of them are free, as several are edited, but ''not'' handrawn.'''}}
-{{Bluer|13:37, August 14, 2010 (UTC)|
-*@iZerox: 3rd party model viewers aren't licensed by Square Enix, so keep in mind that any screenshot of non-free images taken from them aren't official. It's like ripping a sample track from an OST they're selling using a ripping software and distributing it to others for use.
-*@BK: The closest I can imagine is the image policy on the Star Wars Wiki. They are by far one of the best references in an encyclopedic Wiki on pop-cult. I think that's where the FFWiki adopts their image policy from.
-*@BK: Fanart to the wiki's definition should be: An image that has been 100% originally created by the uploader. It doesn't matter if it's a drawing of copyrighted character as long as there is attribution to the source/maker.
-*@BK: That won't be an issue if people stopped using talkbubbles, which I don't think they would. If the bandwidth of image hosting sites is of concern, as long as they're free-use images I would allow them to be uploaded to the wiki to quicken loading time.
-*@Inex: All images that are either duplicates, unused or violate copyright are deleted from time to time. If you find them, you can tag it with the appropriate template, and maybe add a reason to further quicken their deletion.
-*@Inex: Low-resolution fair-use images are allowed for use as long as they serve for descriptive, commentary and/or parody purposes. In the case of userboxes, there's a delicate line there. I would allow it, but I'm not the copyright holder.
-I think I should write a proper image policy after this.
-}}
-{{KrytenKoro|Bluerfn, a good number of the images you just deleted were being used on articles. Can you please go through your list, and either restore or replace the images with viable alternatives, or if absolutely necessary, remove them from the articles?
-In honesty, the reason we have a backlog is because when we delete images, we make sure the image is absolutely unusable, andgo through and make sure to clean up afterward.}}