Editing Forum:Removing DeviantArt Account

{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}

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{{DTN|time=04:58, 9 October 2011 (UTC)|text=That's it. I have a foot and it is being thrust in the motion reflecting toward gravity at typical, constant perspective. So to speak, it is being lowered. I am putting my foot down.

In the June Roundtable<ref>[[KHWiki:Roundtable#Meeting_5,_June_04,_2011_Summary|THIS]]</ref>, it was decided that to remove an offsite account of the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki that was created without any discussion, approval, or consensus from the community. Staff members for this were selected without any process, and essentially happened behind the back of the entire community. The account to DeviantArt was created in May suddenly and inexplicably by Troisnyxetienne. I'm not going to go into all the reasons why we don't need or want a DeviantArt since (1) you probably don't want to read another Godtext and (2) '''<font color=lime>that discussi http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100721201248/mspaintadventures/images/f/f7/EnglishO.gif n is already here</font>'''.<ref>[[KHWiki talk:Staff#DeviantART|THIS TOO]]</ref> In that discussion, I stated why I think we should not host ourselves on DeviantART, justified effective disagreements against opposing arguments, and received agreement and support from many other community members.

However, SIX. MONTHS. LATER. Nothing has been done about this, and we still have the DeviantArt account that the community never even ordered. I am fairly certain that Troisnyxetienne was contacted about this. If not, this forum is going to come off as outlandishly rude. Boop.

Otherwise, however, it is time to put our agreement in stone. This forum is mostly just to affirm and recognize the community's agreement on removing the account from DeviantArt and to let everyone know of this.
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{{Xion4ever|time=16:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)|text=I personally don't care if we have one or not. The simple question is: Do you guys want one or not? Does it serve a purpose? If it doesn't have this, why should we have one, right? Is it helpful and used often? Even if it has a purpose, if we don't use it, what good is it? I think something like this would be suited for our Namine Draw-off competitions and all that. It would keep everyone's artwork in one spot. Voting could take place here, images be hosted over there. The winning image could be linked from DA to here. Do we need it? That's up to you guys. I'm up for it if people are going to use it.}}

{{TNE|time=21:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)|angrytext=For the last time, YES, YES, A THOUSAND TIMES YES, WE ARE KEEPING IT.

If I'm going to have to put our programme on hold mainly because we haven't got info on KH3D, fine by me. But in ''no absolute way will I ever have this group removed, and being the founder of the group, this is final.'' If you are going to put your foot down on saying no, I will put my foot down on saying yes.

The main reason why I even went on with the DA group was because I did not want the art competitions we had in the past to take away from the editing, Mirage Arena and other things we have on the wiki. And bluntly speaking, a fanart collection had been REMOVED from the wiki before (yes, even though the images were hosted on Photobucket). There are quite a number of artists whose attention we can direct to DA, and if we're going to have another art competition like the first one we had, we can always do it there. I didn't in ''any'' way say that the activity would be instantaneous, I was indeed considering the possibilities.

That being said, being the wiki's DA group, we set standards. What is acceptable as far as the universe of KH in its entirety is ''generally'' concerned, we take. And what is not, we leave out.

Erry and I were all happy about the idea of making a KH3D promotional poster competition, but (I'm not sure if it's Kryten or Neumannz) advised us on waiting for further information before beginning, and so we wait.

The crux of the matter: I'm not going to deny our artistic members a chance to express themselves. If they're not going to do it here and if they still love the universe as it is - untampered, untouched, just the way it was in KH1 without the excessive fandom, there's always the DA group. I am keeping the DA group, and my decision is final.

And if a KHW-umbrella site-full of community approval messages isn't enough for you, well then, I'll just have to be blunt: you might as well de-affiliate those sites that we have, if they don't even matter so much.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=00:45, 10 October 2011 (UTC)|text=This isn't meant to insult you or any of the artists we have on the site, TNE. It's just that there's no reason for the DA account to be officially touted by the KHWiki. It's essentially just another image hosting site for fanart; that isn't bad, but it's like showing off our official Photobucket page. It's just kind of superfluous. Just read either of the two links DTN posted, it'd be easier than me listing all of the arguments made against keeping the account.

The only use the account could have would be if we held regular drawing contests, and we don't. We've held one, and assuming that doesn't end up being the end of the year event for this year, it's been the only one we've had.

You cannot just say "No, I'm keeping it". DTN is speaking for a decision the community made a while back that hasn't been acted on yet. It's been agreed that we really don't need a personal DA account at least twice now. Please don't think I'm trying to be rude or mean, you're awesome and I know you had good intentions, but I haven't seen any substantial support for keeping the account (or creating it to begin with) beyond your own. It's the opinion of the Wiki community that we don't need the DA account.}}
{{TNE|time=01:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)|blahtext=Kryten, Xion and Neumannz can vouch that establishing it was also a community decision.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=01:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)|text=They haven't at any of the Roundtables this has been brought up at and they've been present at.}}

Is there a reason to have a community portal that no one uses?  ''No.''{{-}}
If we already have a community portal, though, does it need to be deleted and forgotten in a flurry of anger?  ''No.''

Do we need a DA account?  Probably not.{{-}}
Do we need to kill something just because some people don't want it?  Most certainly not.

Would you kill a puppy becase three people in Soviet Russia don't want a puppy?  Well, I hope not.

I know that analogy is a bit extreme, but you get the picture.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 01:57, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

{{LapisScarab|time=02:20, 10 October 2011 (UTC)|text=Extreme and inaccurate. Not wanting a superfluous DeviantART account = puppy killing communists, really? We're obviously more like the Thought Police from ''1984''. 

Seriously, I really hope we're not going to start with the hyperbolic, inflammatory comments. I'd like to think we're more mature than that<!--but I've got Nazi analogies up the wazoo if you need them-->.

You're suggesting that "some people" (or just three people, apparently; the roundtable begs to differ) just want the DA account gone because we're pissed off and this is some extreme crime of passion. In fact it's the ''majority'' of people (from what I've seen, at least) that decided this ''months'' ago. It's the furthest thing from a "flurry of anger". There have been dozens of reasons we've given as to why we don't need it. Not just "I'M ANGRY AND WANT IT GONE". 

If the argument you're making is "just because we don't need it doesn't mean we should remove it", explain, because that doesn't make sense to me. If that were the case we have a crap ton of pages to remake.}}

I'll hold my counter argument until Kryten/ Neumannz can come here to explain why they supported it<!---And I, like, literally live in a town of Nazis.--->.  {{The Inexistentsig}} 02:25, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
{{KrytenKoro|I don't remember the lead up to the DA account, but it seems like the kind of thing I'd say "yeah, sure" to. No one should be accusing TNE of creating the account without discussion. However, the more pressing issue is that ''at present'', there has been a community decision to disavow the account. I honestly don't care either way -- there are merits to the DA account, but it is not strictly a work-related account. Would it be possible to move it to the affiliates page, instead of shunning it?}}
{{Xion4ever|time=02:33, 10 October 2011 (UTC)|text=@ Lapis: I haven't said anything at the Roundtables because I can't go to them! Ha, I'm lucky to sneak on when I can. To my knowledge, I only recall attending one rountable. Even then, it wasn't for the whole meeting. 

I have posted some about this on our Facebook page however. Heck, I even created a DA account specifically to check in/monitor the Wiki's DA account. I don't see a reason to delete the account since some people do use it. If we want to distance ourselves from it so badly, I'd much rather remove our DA links on the Wiki than delete the DA account. If that isn't good enough, then we can do the following, delete the current KHWiki DA account, and create a new DA account under a different name- one that everyone from here posted at, but was not affiliated with the Wiki. That would be a compromise. Like I said earlier, the DA account would be the best way for us to do our draw off competitions. I see a purpose for it. Regardless of whether it was a community decision or not to start, it's a community decision now to determine if we keep it or remove it.}}

^Brilliant idea, Kryten.  Shall I create a tile, or shall we wait?  {{The Inexistentsig}} 02:39, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

{{neumannz|time=03:50, 10 October 2011 (UTC)|text=Here's what I can tell the issue is:
*There was no communal agreement to the creation of the DA account, and somewhat little discussion
*There doesn't seem to be a practical use for it, with regards to what goes on with the wiki itself
*It sees relatively little use
OK,
*It now exists. Is there actually a reason to go out of our way to take it down?
*As far as hosting images goes, ok, we have Photobucket, but on the other hand, DA is more of an "image community" site, so it's not totally redundant. And, if we do have art contests, which is in fact a real possibility, why ''shouldn't'' we have it?
*People ''do'' use it, even if the number isn't terribly impressive. Considering the amount of use that goes to our Facebook and Twitter, it fits right in
Summary: Just because it doesn't get a great deal of attention doesn't mean it doesn't serve a purpose, and just because not everyone was/is on board with it doesn't mean it needs to be scrapped. Our Facebook and Twitter are in the same boat, in this way. If anything really ''needs'' to be done, it's that we need to reevaluate how we manage our off-sites. Now that is exists, there is certainly no need to scrap the DA account, even if there's no apparent necessity for it. Making it an affiliate would probably be acceptable.

Also, I CAN'T DO ROUNDTABLES BECAUSE I DO NOT DO SATURDAYS. I HAVE NEVER MADE A REGULARLY SCHEDULED ROUNDTABLE, AND I LIKELY NEVER WILL.}}
{{LapisScarab|time=04:02, 10 October 2011 (UTC)|text=I take back what I said about Xion and Neumannz being at the Roundtables. They ''were'' at the Roundtables where this was discussed, but were not there the entire time and missed the discussions on ''this''. My bad, I remembered that wrong.}}
{{TNE|time=09:27, 10 October 2011 (UTC)|sadtext=Kryten, Neumannz and Xion, you guys are spot on. Truly, I thank you.

Inasfar as I am working in the capacity of wiki admin, these facts are true:

#This was coined by WiiDragonXZ and put into effect by me. My intention was to give a platform to artistically-talented KHW users to share their stuff, considering a fanart collection (which was hosted on Photobucket) had been removed from the wiki in the past by the complaints of ''one user''.
#At a time when we were struggling with rules-lawyering by some DA users, I did get a lot of feedback from ''three administrators and one mod'' (namely Kryten, Xion, Neumannz and Erry) and whoever else was there. Heck, I even stayed up until 3:00 a.m. to write the rules with the guidance of Kryten and Christoph Schrader just so that it'd reflect the spirit of the wiki. The intention of creating those rules was to make sure the group reflected what the wiki was looking for: official stuff, not complete deviation from canon in any manner.
#Christoph Schrader and I had to deal with rules-lawyering by one particular DA user on canonicity, and that's what led to the revising of the rules. LegoAlchemist can also testify to this, because ''he himself'' took part in the rules-lawyering.
#Ever since then, we've had no problems.
#The group had been set up to accommodate artistic contests of any nature related to KH canon (remember our 2010 Art Competition - Naminé's Drawoff?). Our initial idea was to have a KH3D promo poster contest, but we were advised, either by Kryten or by Neumannz, to hold on until we got more details for KH3D, and so I believed it only right to do the contest at an opportune time, which of course would ''not'' be instantaneous.
#If this participation is not community-based, I can honestly say that the current Roundtable was not either, because Neumannz gave me word that he and Xion weren't there, Kryten was only there in part, and I wasn't there because I couldn't even come on to the IRC from the university's computers.
#And if all this is an excuse to remove the DA account, I can account that the DA account ''IS'' the most active of all our offsite accounts we ever have. Our Twitter, Facebook and YouTube serve the same purpose as the DA account: ''to draw attention to us at KHWiki and the spirit of what we do, through any means possible''. And not much activity has been happening on all three of them either. In fact, ''much less than the DA account''. If you're gonna press for the removal of this, then you might as well remove everything else!
#If this is out of fear that the wiki's size will expand disproportionately, I'm going to be blunt and say that once SEIWA is completed, the wiki will ''double'', if not ''triple'', in size. We'll never be ready for this influx of people unless we accommodate them.
#I set up [[User:Troisnyxetienne/User Talent Search|<font color="gold">a user talent search page</font>]] on my userspace mainly because the problem is not the ''site itself'', but rather, the ''underuse''. Used to their full potential, the offsite pages can be good means of reeling people into the wiki. My intention is to search out podcasters/LPers/commentators for YT, writers for Twitter and the DA Journals, visual artists and cosplayers, whathaveyou - so long as we're good in something that means promotion, we can do something about this.

And this is all I have to say. I rest my case.}}