Editing Forum:Project Character/Enemy Boss

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{EO|time=21:11, August 23, 2010 (UTC)|text=Thanks to [[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]], we've been provided with the attack and magic card images for character bosses in ''Re:CoM''. For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I refer to images like this:

<gallery>
File:Axel - A1 (card).png
</gallery>

Yesterday, my project was to add these card images to the respective characters' boss articles. I created the "Deck Statistics" section, which was meant to demonstrate the following:

*The cards in each character's deck, including Attack, Magic, Item, and Enemy. Each character that uses Sleights currently has this section, displaying the cards that deck contains in a gallery. I wasn't sure whether to add this to characters' boss pages like Ursula or Maleficent, who only have one type of card that they use for everything, or what to classify the card as in this case, since they are enemy cards, but they aren't used for the enemy card function. However, these cards still have values, etc., so we will need to add them eventually to stay consistent, as at least some of the sections will apply to it. This counts for Heartless bosses, too. 
*The quantity of each card type in the deck (ie; Shadow (x1)). This would be grouped with the cards that appear in each deck, as a caption for the card images in their galleries, despite length of these captions. A different method can be used if it damages formatting.
*Sleights. The sleights each card grants when stocked. This is a difficult task, as each card in a character deck is a different type, thus causing a different attack when used alone or in a Sleight. For example, {{sleight|Lexaeus - A1|Lexaeus - M|Lexaeus - A2}} equals Impact Quake, while {{sleight|Lexaeus - A1|Lexaeus - A2|Lexaeus - M}} equals Grand Impact. My point is that the same cards can be used in different orders to create different Sleights. Currently, all ''CoM'' boss articles host the Sleight section, but as to which cards make each Sleight, this needs to be varified. I only put what I did thanks to YouTube videos. Wonderful way to waste an afternoon for one bloody section of an article that hardly anyone pays attention to.
*Card value. This is going to be a pain-staking process. In a sub-section of the Deck Statistics section, we'll need to place the value of each card, and the quantity of that value (9 (x5)).

Each of these sub-sections will need to be varified, of course, by guidebook or Ultimania. The ''CoM'' guidebook, I know, at least lists the cards in each deck, the quantity, and the quantity of values, but for some reason, ''CoM'''s influence on the Wiki seems to have completely vanished, replaced by ''Re:CoM'', So this complicates things. I'm not sure of the contents of the Ultimania, as I've never read or seen a copy, but I'm sure we can get around this.

Then this morning, I went through the painstaking process of completely revising the [[Zexion (Boss)]] article (even if it unfortunately credited me as an IP at the time), adding Enemy template and all, as much as I hate the complexity of that thing. But going through each of the boss articles, I realized how terribly these were written. Some strategies were just a bulleted list of attacks, for Pete's sake! Thus, I thought it might be a good idea to revise these articles, but I can't do this all by myself. I need your help with this. Aside from issues with missing stats or card deck information, the Zexion boss article is an example of a well-written boss article, a model anyone can use if they wish to attempt revising a boss article on their own. Boss articles should contain the following sections in this recommended and personally preferred order:

*Game template. List all games the character is fought in.
*Maintenance templates. State issues and place accordingly based on problems in the article. Do not place if not needed for any specific reason. Do not list "Everything" as what is lacking in the article.
*Youmay template. Link to the character article of the boss in question. 
*Intro. Don't just say "So-and-so appears as a boss in this-and-this game.", provide a bit of a story to it, such as "Marluxia wishing to do away with Sora due to his actions in Castle Oblivion, he attacks the Keyblade master and engages him in a climatic battle." I'm not saying be the next Shakespeare almost as if we were redoing the character article in an intro, but one line is quite pathetic. I refer to how badly the Zexion boss article looked before I revised it when saying this, as I will many times as an example.
*Enemy template. Fill in all necessary fields. If a character appears in two games, set up the template for those two games. Don't be lazy and only do half the work (an example being [[Lexaeus (Boss)]], the article only showing stats for ''CoM''). If you don't know a certain statistic, ask someone else (PM them on the IRC, contact a reliable staffer, or leave an inquiry on the boss article's talk page), or simply put the expansion template on the top of the article, stating what it is you're looking for, lables such as "Statistics" and even something lengthier like "Determine quantities of cards in Deck Statistics section" being acceptable. 
*Strategy. If a character appears in more than one game, write it as "Strategies". Game titles should be used in sub-headings. If multiple battles with different characters occur within a single game ([[Terra-Xehanort (Boss)]]), that's when you can get into sub-sub-headings and such. Otherwise, each new game a character is fought in should be a new sub-heading. A bulleted list of attacks does not count as a strategy, and a well-written strategy will use terms such as "one must" instead of "you" and "the player". It will also describe methods of beating the character as well as list their attacks in a more article-like formatting than a bulleted list. A good example is the Zexion boss article, a bad example being [[Riku Replica (Boss)]]. 
*Deck Statistics. Only add this if a boss is fought in ''CoM''/''Re:CoM'' with the sub-sections mentioned above, all conditions I mentioned taken into account.
*Battle Quotes. Sub-sections according to games, no "Hee-yah" or "Muahahahaha!", just legitimate phrases like "Give me your best shot.", as mentioned in the MoS. I know a policy exists stating only seven quotes may be used, but that makes having the section irrelevant all together, and some articles having this and not others is quite inconsistent. While we could eliminate the section all together, it's quite useful for readers, since battle quotes irk a lot of gamers while playing. And if confusion arises over a quote, it's not that hard to just discuss it and find a reasonable resolution.
*Video. Write as "Videos" if a character appears in multiple games. So long as the 10/8 video requirement is kept, videos should be able to be added for every time a character is fought. The maximum right now is Vanitas, with seven battles, so the number of videos should not be a problem in terms of documenting the article in this media-based manner. Proper formatting is to be used, of course, what with the Wikitable and all. Titles of the videos in the Wikitable should list the game, which playable character is fighting, and the character being fought.
*Notes and References. Only if a certain statistic/strategic fact needs to be sourced. See the Zexion boss article for an example.
*Navigational template. Only if it has one, such as any one of the Organization boss articles.
*Categorization. Categorize as "GAME TITLE HERE bosses", not "GAME TITLE HERE enemies". There is a difference between bosses and enemies, and enemies count as lesser creatures like Shadows and Dusks.

Rather than leave these articles to collect dust, I say we make them as good as we can before we allow them to do so. Let's not be lazy editors that just place a cleanup template atop an article in hopes that one day a guy with nothing better to do will revise it. I think with all I am that this should be one of the Wiki's next projects, and I hope you'll agree! I appreciate any help I receive, and hopefully this will be an edit-motivating group experience!}}
==Discussion==
I merely wish to clarify, as I don't think I made it apparent enough above, that this forum's subject refers to both Character and Enemy (Heartless, Nobodies, etc.) bosses (hence the title). - <span>[[User:EternalNothingnessXIII|<font color="black">'''Eternal'''</font>]][[User talk:EternalNothingnessXIII|<font color="darkred">'''Nothingness'''</font>]][[User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Jukebox|<font color="dimgray">'''XIII'''</font>]]</span> 22:49, August 23, 2010 (UTC)
::And yes, we are intended to discuss this. - <span>[[User:EternalNothingnessXIII|<font color="black">'''Eternal'''</font>]][[User talk:EternalNothingnessXIII|<font color="darkred">'''Nothingness'''</font>]][[User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Jukebox|<font color="dimgray">'''XIII'''</font>]]</span> 05:27, August 24, 2010 (UTC)
{{LapisScarab|time=05:39, August 24, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=I actually brought up something similar on the Project Enemy:DESIGN page. I'm tired and lazy right now, so behold the power of copy and paste!

'''Suggestion. Obviously for bosses who are also actual characters (Saix, Luxord, Hades, etc.) we wouldn't give their bosspages design sections, it would be redundant to the Appearance section on their main page. But for characters who have multiple forms during boss fights (Xion, Xemnas, Marluxia, Maleficent etc.) I think we should contain the descriptions of the multiple forms on the respective boss pages. For example, what I did with the descriptions of Xion and Xemnas' various armored forms. Thoughts?'''}}
{{EO|time=05:44, August 24, 2010 (UTC)|text=Laziness is bliss. Yeah, Lapis, we can contemplate design as a section, too.}}
{{KrytenKoro|The ReCoM ultimania scans, which I believe Shard already gave you the link to, list the sleights, the card types, and their names. It also lists the deck makeup for applicable bosses, which should be added.

Strategies - should start with a bulleted list of attacks, using names from the guides or ultimanias. If the attack is unnamed, list it as something like "An unnamed attack in which X does Y". If stats for the attacks are available (Which they are for most games), list those as well. It may be reasonable to list how to deflect or dodge the attack here, but I personally think that that is best reserved for the actual tips portion.

There should be a max of TWO (2) strategies listed - the most efficient (no item usage, minimal damage taken, for days, minimal spell usage), and the quickest (anything goes, the quickest). Other variations, such as no exp challenges, etc., do not need to be catered to. This is all we need.

Boss Quotes - absolutely should not be a separate section, as it encourages adding grunts. This should be synthesized with the attacks list as the attacks "telegraph". If absolutely necessary, the beginning and finishing quotes may be added as part of the lead or some such, but they would better fit on the character's main page. Any quotes added to the boss page should be removed from any non-vital appearances on the character page - ie, the quote list, of random synopsis interruptions.

Categorization - redundant. The Enemy template already handles all categorization. None is needed, unless we want to categorize bosses by what world they appear in.

Videos - [[Trickmaster]] is the format I've been using. The table should be of minimum width (so no widths are specified, except by the video embedding itself), and centered. If there are more than two videos, they should be in separate rows by game. For a boss that appears more than once, each recurring time should be followed by the applicable roman numeral, as used in all the guides (unless the specific names differ). There should be a video for every boss battle, as well as by episode, so there should actually be four for CoM and Re:CoM bosses. Videos should be ordered by game, as done with the game template, then chronologically within (for BBS, assume T>V>A). Videos should show the complete battle. Days bosses should not have their own videos, as it is abusive of fair use - instead, link to the Mission article with the full-mission battle (excluding AntiRiku and AntiSaix, which are a special case). For games with more than one scenario (CoM and BBS), the scenario should be specified if necessary, as done at [[Vanitas (Boss)]].

Lexaeus (Boss) missing stats - do we want the Absent Silhouettes and Replica Data to be covered on the same page? They are a different type of thing, and if the stats are there, then full info on the AS and RD should be, too. I'd personally prefer covering these on the main AS and RD pages.
}}
{{EO|time=00:05, August 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=I don't recall Shard ever providing me with such scans. They'd be useless to me, anyways, as I have no way of reading Japanese. Keep in mind that this is intended to be a forum about starting a new project, not me asking for help or complaining about the Wiki.

For the strategies, I don't believe there is ever an issue where a character has more than two. The only exception would be Vanitas, who is fought at least twice in three different stories. While his attacks are similar, it's quite lazy to say "See above" when each character has a different style. Same goes for any other boss similar to this, such as characters like Vexen, who appears as a boss in two different stories, within the same game. A reasonable strategy describes an attack and how to avoid it, as well as providing tips and such. That will need to be done in anything written. If we want to go into an in-depth statistics thing in terms of their attacks, etc., then we can find a way to do that, as well.

In terms of quotes, saying "When Vanitas says "Give up!", dodge his Keyblade strike" isn't that helpful, especially if that's the only way quotes are to be included. The Boss articles aren't that popular around newbies and IP's, so I don't think we really need to worry about people being tempted to edit with grunts and laughter. Only regulars seem to edit them, and these users should know what's acceptable on an article and what's not by now.

Categorization, now. I don't think we are in need of any more worthless categories. Pages like Dwarf Woodlands would only have one article in those categories, anyways. 

Videos, next. I have no issues with what you just stated, Kryten. I agree with that 100%.

Last comes Absent Silhouettes and Data Replicas. I feel they'd make the AS and RD pages ridiculously long. No need to do that, as the page should describe what an AS or DR is itself, and then link to the boss articles as they currently do. We need to simply expand the enemy template if we resort to that.}}
{{KrytenKoro|For strategies, I meant max two per fight, not max two per article. I have seen quite a few where the article suggests up to five different ways of approaching something, like [[Sephiroth (Boss)]]. I'm not talking separate passages, either - there should only be two ''contiguous'' strategies, that you can follow without having to sort out the page. The Sephiroth (Boss) page is hideously redundant and convoluted on many levels.

For the ultimania - sorry, I thought he had. The link is on my talk page, I think. The stats are in order as in the template, but I had forgotten that the labels were still in Japanese, so someone who is fluent should probably attack those. 

For battle quotes, Sephiroth (Boss) actually has a good example. I was thinking something like this:

*'''Heartless Angel''': Sephiroth will shout "Descend, Heartless Angel!", then summon a halo of darkness over Sora that will reduce him to 1 HP and 0 MP once completed. The attack cannot be dodged, but Sora can interrupt the attack by damaging Sephiroth in any way. Sephiroth starts using this technique when reduced to about 30% health, and if interrupted, he will immediately use Stigma.

This format gives:
*How to recognize the attack, including the telegraph,
*What the attack does,
*Whether the attack be interrupted or deflected, and
*What the context of the attack is.

AS and RD: Okay, yeah, I guess it would extend those pages too much. In that case, I feel that the "boss extra form designs" should include these replicas, so that the design discussion on the main pages is also included on the boss's page, and the lead should cover how to find the fights. These should also be present as a separate tab, since they are technically not the same being.}}

{{ShardofTruth|time=18:50, August 25, 2010 (UTC)|talk=@ReCom stats:

[http://www.mediafire.com/?rv782ios929k5pv Here are the scanned ReCoM Ultimania Pages again]. I translated the [http://a.imageshack.us/img163/9419/ansem1.png Ansem] page, so everyone can get an overview. What I mostly like about it, is how they displayed the deck. Maybe we could implement something similar. Every slight has more information in an info box, that isn't covered in the articles yet. I'm not really sure about the translation or the usefullness:

*威力補正 (ダメージ量を決める数値) Power Compensation
*属性  (技が持つ属性) Attribute
*特殊効果 (伎が持つ特殊効果) Special Effect
There is also a full description of every attack, but because the wiki is no complete guidebook, maybe it's enough at it is now.

I wouldn't say that CoM's influence has vanished, the slight and card sections for example cover the differences. Most stats are still for CoM though, even if the images are from ReCoM. There should be a precise distinction I think.}}
{{EO|time=19:54, August 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=All right, please see [[Ansem, Seeker of Darkness (Boss)]]. I recently added the deck values based on the scan ShardofTruth translated. I think we should continue discussing the Deck template on the IRC, Kryten, if you wouldn't mind. I tried centering the list of values as you see done on the music articles like [[Swim This Way]] so it would take up less room, but no luck. Interpreting what you said about strategies this way after you re-explained yourself, I couldn't agree more.

In terms of battle quotes, I really would still like to see a section listing every quote, but I can live with what you just defined as what should be done. We can put this matter behind us. I actually find that the format you used would be better.

I'm perfectly fine with your recommendation of handling the AS's and RD's, too.

At the moment, I'm struggling to download ShardofTruth's scans. That's why I had forgotten he showed them to me... it was a download link that wasn't cooperating for me, and for that, I apologize for the resulting confusion. Once we get these issues resolved, I'd really like to get started on this project attempt, maybe even make a project page for it if the green light is given.}}
::Yes, I left this message as an IP. This was not a case of sockpuppeting. - <span>[[User:EternalNothingnessXIII|<font color="black">'''Eternal'''</font>]][[User talk:EternalNothingnessXIII|<font color="darkred">'''Nothingness'''</font>]][[User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Jukebox|<font color="dimgray">'''XIII'''</font>]]</span> 00:18, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
{{KrytenKoro|OH! Also, any videos used, we need to have permission from the video uploader. No ripping off of videos in the main articles. We'll need an official statement from whoever the videos belong to, either from them signing on a project page, or an archived scan of an email.}}
{{EO|time=16:58, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Agreed. However, isn't it kind of difficullt to just spam a bunch of YouTube channels asking for videos, especially when these people won't respond? In the end, can we say that the project can be begun? If so, I'll create the project page based on what we've established here.}}
{{neumannz|time=17:47, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm a little confused as to how this isn't really a restatement of [[Kingdom Hearts Wiki:Project Enemy/STRATEGY]]...}}
{{EO|time=17:49, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Project Enemy seems to cover lesser beings like Shadows and Dusks. This is intended for bosses like Barbossa and Vanitas. If we can make this project page a "See Also" or subpage to Project:Enemy, that's fine, too.}}

==CoM vs. ReCoM==
{{ShardofTruth|time=10:37, September 1, 2010 (UTC)|talk=I will put this here, because it's relevant to the discussion and some points have already been made. I'm willing to go through every CoM enemy article and fill the infobox with the necessary information. But I'm still wondering, what consensus was found on the differences between CoM and ReCoM.
The HP, AP and EXP stats change greatly in ReCoM, the status and element effects are the same though. I've been thinking about a simple solutions these days, but nothing crossed my mind. At the moment there are three possibilities:
*Overwrite the CoM stats completely. Because ReCoM is the superior version, CoM becomes obsolete, even if it's still buyable and playable for the GBA. This is how it's done for the FM versions at the moment (only the other way around). They are only stats after all.
*Make references to the older/newer stats. It could be done like in the [[Guard Armor]] article, but because some enemies can be fought on different floors, this could be easily get out of hand (for Shadow there are 13 floors multiplied with 3 different stats makes 39 references). It can also be achieved by using backslashes or brackets in combination with the {{CoM}} and {{ReCoM}} template.
*Make another tab or change the existing one for another set of stats. The most complex solution.
What do you think?}}
{{EO|time=14:16, September 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=I personally like option I or II. However, we could just go into the template and write the CoM and Re:CoM stats in, like this:

*HP: 1879{{CoM}}<br>1900{{ReCoM}}

Then again, were we to include both CoM and ReCoM stats, this would greatly complicate the Deck Statistics section, considering the decks are completely different between the two games, as well. This would just make the section incredibly long and redundant. While all of this is doable, I believe in terms of the Deck sections, CoM's existence will have to be ignored completely to favor ReCoM. This, in turn, would make using CoM stats in the template an inconsistency, something I'm personally against.}}