Editing Forum:New Heartless-enemy template

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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'''[[:Template:Heartless/Draft2]]''': Viewable [http://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:KrytenKoro/Sandbox here].

'''Concerns''' (not glitches):
#Do we want to keep these colors?
#Right now, I think the infobox stretches to the needed width. Do we want to decide on a fixed width for the template or the images?
#This template currently has all information, except for "reactions" and "KH2 boss victory bonuses", that any non-Gummi enemy or boss in the games has, and it is possible to use it as a general "Enemy" template. In its current state, the only thing that would need to be changed to be widely applicable is the name of the template. Do we want to do so?
##'''Decision''': Copy code and modify for other enemies.
#Do we want the template to display the games an enemy appears in, or is that acceptably redundant to the tabs themselves?
##'''Decision''': It is redundant.
#Do we want the templates to put enemies in stat-ranking categories?
#How do we want to handle item drops, especially for orbs (HP, MP, moogle, munny)? Do we want to create quick use image templates for the various orb types, like the guides use? Do we want item drops to be handled somewhere else on the page?
#For CoM, do we care about Moogle Points?
#For CoM, is Aero an elemental attack, or is it a "Special" attack? Same with Gravity and Stop - I've grouped them together with "Other", is that correct?
#For CoM, do we want to assume that enemies on a certain RR floor have the same stats as the respective SS floor? Do we want to include the applicable stats, then, for both RR and SS floors, using only the 13 floors?
##'''Decision''': Ignore R/R floors.
#For KH2, do we want to ignore Coliseum appearances, as they have a greatly different stat setup than in normal appearances (No EXP, no drops, etc.)?
#Does anyone at all want the journal infobox as a tab here?
##'''Decision''': Remove Journal tab.

==Discussion==
{{KrytenKoro|Okay, as soon as the code for the Mediawiki files is overpasted (just replace the article with the code on the respective talk pages), the template will display completely. If anyone finds glitches at any time, please report them on the template's talk page, and I will fix them immediately. I'm hoping this discussion will be focused on how we want the template to function, instead.}}
{{Guardian Soul|text='''Do we want to keep these colors?'''

I'm fine with them right now.

'''Right now, I think the infobox stretches to the needed width. Do we want to decide on a fixed width for the template or the images?'''

I'm also fine with this right now.

'''This template currently has all information, except for "reactions" and "KH2 boss victory bonuses", that any enemy or boss in the games has, and it is possible to use it as a general "Enemy" template. In its current state, the only thing that would need to be changed to be widely applicable is the name of the template. Do we want to do so?'''

You mean use the same template for every single enemy (Heartless, Nobodies, Bosses)?  Because I think that every different type of enemy should have a different template.  Add the reaction command and just put "bonus" instead of "KH2 boss victory bonuses".

'''Do we want the template to display the games an enemy appears in, or is that acceptably redundant to the tabs themselves?'''

I don't think it's necessary since the tabs show which games the enemy appears in, but if an enemy only appears in one game, will there still be one tab there for that one game to show which game it is?

'''Do we want the templates to put enemies in stat-ranking categories?'''

Not entirely sure what you mean by this.  Elaborate?

'''How do we want to handle item drops, especially for orbs (HP, MP, moogle, munny)? Do we want to create quick use image templates for the various orb types, like the guides use? Do we want item drops to be handled somewhere else on the page?'''

I think you can leave items in the template, at least for now.

'''For CoM, do we care about Moogle Points?'''

I don't see why not.

'''For CoM, is Aero an elemental attack, or is it a "Special" attack? Same with Gravity and Stop - I've grouped them together with "Other", is that correct?'''

Aero, Gravity, and Stop are considered non-elemental.

'''For CoM, do we want to assume that enemies on a certain RR floor have the same stats as the respective SS floor? Do we want to include the applicable stats, then, for both RR and SS floors, using only the 13 floors?'''

You'd probably have to list every possible floor that an enemy can appear on.  I'm pretty certain that it's impossible for an enemy to be on the same floor as it was in Sora's story for Riku's story, seeing as how you recieve world cards in reverse order.  The guide should state everything correctly.

'''For KH2, do we want to ignore Coliseum appearances, as they have a greatly different stat setup than in normal appearances (No EXP, no drops, etc.)?'''

Yes, Coliseum appearances can be written somewhere else.

'''Does anyone at all want the journal infobox as a tab here?'''

I don't think we need it.  If we fit everything into the stat box then there won't be as much to write in the article.  Besides, once more games come out, it's going to take up more tabs.}}
{{KrytenKoro|
'''You mean use the same template for every single enemy (Heartless, Nobodies, Bosses)?  Because I think that every different type of enemy should have a different template.  Add the reaction command and just put "bonus" instead of "KH2 boss victory bonuses".'''
It is completely possible to have the colors vary depending on what type of enemy it is (Heartless, Nobody, Being, Boss). The question is basically - do you want me to do that, or would it be easier just to have separate templates with identical coding for everything but the color? Basically, would you rather have one "enemy" template with semi-complex coding, or would it be easier to have a "Heartless", "Nobody", and "Boss" template with the coding we have now?

Also, Troix had mentioned a while ago about dressing up Reaction Commands like we did with Sleights and are doing with Attacks. So, theoretically we'd have also have a table for them already on the page, so would it be okay to just have that, instead of it being in the Infobox?

For Bonuses, that's basically the boss equivalent of the "Rewards" (and in rare cases where bosses drop HP or munny, we might as well put it together), so if we revamp the boss infobox after this, why don't we just use the reward entry?

'''I don't think it's necessary since the tabs show which games the enemy appears in, but if an enemy only appears in one game, will there still be one tab there for that one game to show which game it is?'''
At least one tab will always appear. The question is pretty much - do you think that that is informative and clear enough?

'''Not entirely sure what you mean by this.  Elaborate?'''
It is possible to code the stat entry so that, for example, placing a number in the HP entry places the page in "Category:Enemies by HP", which would sort them by the HP they have. So, you could open that category and pretty much see every enemy in the games sorted by how much HP they can get. This could also be done with stat categories for each game, so you can see them organized per each game. Based on the type of discussion that goes on on the equipment and enemy pages, I thought stat ranking seemed of interest enough to mention this.

'''Aero, Gravity, and Stop are considered non-elemental.'''
Okay, but would an enemy have the same resistance to Aero, Gravity, or Stop as they do to the Neutral-element Metal Chocobo card? How exactly do resistances work in CoM?

'''You'd probably have to list every possible floor that an enemy can appear on.  I'm pretty certain that it's impossible for an enemy to be on the same floor as it was in Sora's story for Riku's story, seeing as how you recieve world cards in reverse order.  The guide should state everything correctly.'''
For example, in SS, Powerwild's appear on floors 2-6, and in RR, 7-4 (roughly 7-10 stats). So, would we want to include the stats for basements 7-4 based on Sora's non-existent 7-10? How would we address RR stats, basically?

On a related note, do we just want to ignore Final Mix stat changes?

'''I don't think we need it.  If we fit everything into the stat box then there won't be as much to write in the article.  Besides, once more games come out, it's going to take up more tabs.'''
Okay, I can see how the Journal box would get too much bigger than the other tabs (resulting in the page oozing around when the tabs are changed) once the next two games are released, so it can be removed.
}}


{{DoorToNothing|text='''Do we want to keep these colors?'''

The colors seem fine.
 
'''Right now, I think the infobox stretches to the needed width. Do we want to decide on a fixed width for the template or the images?''' 

Again, it seems to be fine as is.

'''This template currently has all information, except for "reactions" and "KH2 boss victory bonuses", that any non-Gummi enemy or boss in the games has, and it is possible to use it as a general "Enemy" template. In its current state, the only thing that would need to be changed to be widely applicable is the name of the template. Do we want to do so?'''

I think that we should leave the Reaction Commands out of the box; perhaps those can be put into a seperate template. The title for the KH2 prizes is rather long, also.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by making the template widely applicable by its name. Could you please explain?

'''Do we want the template to display the games an enemy appears in, or is that acceptably redundant to the tabs themselves?''' 

I think that the template should only show the games that the enemy appears in. If this is something that cannot be done, than a simple message should be put on all of the games that an enemy doesn't appear on.

'''Do we want the templates to put enemies in stat-ranking categories?'''

... stat-ranking categories?

'''How do we want to handle item drops, especially for orbs (HP, MP, moogle, munny)? Do we want to create quick use image templates for the various orb types, like the guides use? Do we want item drops to be handled somewhere else on the page?'''

I've seen enemy pages where the item drops are within the article, and it doesn't look very good or organized. Perhaps this should be at the very bottom of the infoboxes? Or maybe in a seperate template?

'''For CoM, do we care about Moogle Points?'''

I think so. The more information, the better.

'''For CoM, is Aero an elemental attack, or is it a "Special" attack? Same with Gravity and Stop - I've grouped them together with "Other", is that correct?'''

The guide doesn't list a multiplier for these spells, so I would assume that would be non-elemental, like the spell Bio in Final Fantasy.

'''For CoM, do we want to assume that enemies on a certain RR floor have the same stats as the respective SS floor? Do we want to include the applicable stats, then, for both RR and SS floors, using only the 13 floors?'''

Hmm... good question. I think this should be tested before putting it in the template.

'''For KH2, do we want to ignore Coliseum appearances, as they have a greatly different stat setup than in normal appearances (No EXP, no drops, etc.)?'''

Yes, because that would leave some areas empty; no, because it is information that shows the contrast in strength compared to the same enemy's strength in worlds such as Beast's Castle and Halloween Town. I am more on the side of it being included.

'''Does anyone at all want the journal infobox as a tab here?'''

It does look nice, but like Guardian Soul said, as more games are added, it's just going to overflow. The Shadow Heartless should have that problem by the time coded is released. However, it does look much nicer than the text that is simply a section of the enemies' articles. Perhaps there is a way to put the tab's contents into the articles?

By the way, it seems that there is quite an amount of CoM confusion. I have the Official BradyGames Strategy Guide for it, so just ping me if you need any information from it.}}

{{Guardian Soul|text=
'''Enemy Templates:'''

I say we just make separate templates with the same coding.  It seems easier to me that way, and besides, there are some things that could probably be excluded/included on different templates.  Don't worry about the other enemy templates now though, let's just try this one out.

'''Tabs:'''

I think we should just leave it with tabs.  Listing the games is unecessary.  You'd have to be a moron to not know what each tab stands for, and we can always just list the game appearances in the opening description for each Heartless.

'''Stat Categories:'''

This seems like a plus, I don't really mind.

'''Resistances:'''

The way you have them set up on the template isn't the same as in the CoM strategy guide.  Take a [http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/kingdomhearts/images/1/18/CoM_Info_Reference.png look] at what they did in the top right.

'''R/R Stats:'''

Well the guide doesn't bother to list the stats for R/R, so let's just forget about them.  Is it really that big of a deal?  I doubt people will care that much.  If we happen to figure out the R/R stuff we can always just fix it later.

'''Olympus Coliseum Stats:'''

I was thinking that we could just make a special coliseum box and apply it to the enemy pages.  It seems a lot easier.

'''Rewards:'''

We should probably put the rewards somewhere else in the article.  Don't forget the mushroom Heartless and the huge amount of items they can provide.}}
{{KrytenKoro|'''Resistances:'''

CoM itself lists "neutral" and "special" as psuedo-elements for the purpose of resistance, so I added them (changing "non-elemental" to "neutral". I also added "Aero" and "Other" for Gravity and Stop. I can't find any mention of actual recorded resistance stats for them, though, so we might have to remove them, but if we do, ho will we fill that column? They make it very nice and even for now, and the only other option is having all six of them in one row, with the floor column spread 3 columns wide.

'''R/R Stats:'''

I'll go with that, though I'd really like more editors to get in on this discussion. Can we maybe post notices on the talk pages?

'''Olympus Coliseum Stats:'''

Plus, we could have a neat little roster type thing with images - Seeds & how many appear, and they're stats, maybe with columns on the sides and the little fresco thing. It could be cool. I have no idea how to make the images, but it could be cool.

'''DoortoNothing''':

most of what you asked had already been explained by me and GuardianSoul. Does it answer your questions?}}

{{DoorToNothing|text=Yes, I've got it all cleared up now. Thanks.}}
#Yes, they can always be changed at a later point in time.
#Fixed, and it needs to be slightly slimmer than it is now.
#Why not just use if protocols, like the current one does? That way, the don't appear unless data is added in those sections when the template is actively used.
#If we use tabs, let's just stick with the tabs, no need to put it in the template as well then.
#No.
#Do we really care about the orbs, other than munny?
#I'll consider this for a later time.
#They are non-elemental, as I recall.
#No comment.
#Why not just have a coliseum tab?
#No, the journal info will go in the respective game tabs.
--[[User:Hecko X|Hecko X]] 06:20, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

{{Guardian Soul|text=About a coliseum tab, I think it would just be better to make a separate box.  The tabs can stay for games.  We have KH, CoM, KH2, 358/2 Days, BBS, coded, and KH3 in the future.  Already, that's up to seven tabs.  And like Koro said, we can do something fancy with images.  I can easily provide something good.

As for resistances, you can just list them like this:  Weapon, Fire, Thunder, Blizzard, Aero, Gravity, Stop, Other.

And for rewards, we could make a separate box and just include Munny and Moogle Points as well.}}
{{KrytenKoro|'''Why not just use if protocols, like the current one does? That way, the don't appear unless data is added in those sections when the template is actively used.'''

I'm not sure what you're asking. This template already extensively uses if protocols.
}}
{{ILHI|14:08, 28 May 2009 (UTC)|It looks good '''BUT''' FIXED WIDTH plz. Whether % or px.}}
{{Guardian Soul|text=Koro, you should fix the tab titles on your example.  The example looks messed up with long titles.  Change them to KH, CoM, and KH2.}}
{{MM841|20:23, 28 May 2009 (UTC)|I can't be bothered reading all this so i will keep this short: The template is frickin awsome XD!!!! The only problem is the width of the tabs on the page. Could you put them on 2 rows, see if that looks better?}}
{{Guardian Soul|text=We already had the tabs working, I just wanted to see what it looked like with the full titles.  He just hasn't changed it back yet.}}
{{BebopKate|text=Wow.  That is seriously impressive, you guys.  Other than the aforementioned tabs, I think it looks great the way it is!}}
{{KrytenKoro|I actually already fixed the tabs a while ago, I'm going to try and figure out why it hasn't propogated to the test template yet...}}