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| Honestly, given the behavior of the both of you on the wiki or channel over this matter, I think you could qualify for a go in the manufactory; and you'd ''definitely'' qualify if this thing can't come to an amicable end immediately.}} | | Honestly, given the behavior of the both of you on the wiki or channel over this matter, I think you could qualify for a go in the manufactory; and you'd ''definitely'' qualify if this thing can't come to an amicable end immediately.}} |
| {{neumannz|time=15:47, 7 September 2011 (UTC)|angry=I agree.}}
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| {{DTN|time=01:42, 9 September 2011 (UTC)|text=HERE IS THE MESSAGE YOU'VE ALL JUST BEEN DYING TO READ. Go ahead, pull up a chair. Make some popcorn. This is only the biggest message I've ever been pestered to write in my entire WikiLife about some WikiDrama WikiRegarding the WikiIRC. Now to answer every subject, topic, and question in this thread. Enjoy.
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| There is a complete misinterpretation of events, firstly. Many people are viewing the de-opping of ErryK as a punishment for the spamming incident. This is absolutely, 100% false. On several occasions, simply too many to remember, I have had to contact ErryK by a personal messaging query to tell him that his actions were uncouth and against the channel rules as a channel operator--for spam, fighting, cursing, insulting, threatening. Mostly, therefore, cyberbullying and violent attitude. You can ask ErryK about this and, assuming he is willing to tell the truth of the matter, he will tell you that I have indeed contacted him a multitude of times about his behavior on the IRC. I apologize for not logging personal messaging queries--from now on, I shall be sure to do that for future referencing of events.
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| Similarly, there is a misinterpretation of what you are describing as "dictatorial" attitude in de-opping ErryK. During some of the several events I alluded to previously, I spoke privately with other channel operators. I began doing this once I realized this was becoming a habit for ErryK to use such deplorable attitude as a channel operator. As harsh as that sounds, it's the opinion that I can justify with personal experiences, many of which I hold in logs that I can release if necessary. Anyway, back to the point, the other operators and I agreed that the issue was becoming a larger problem than it should be, especially for a channel operator who is supposed to lead by example, be a personification of our rules, and prevent breaking of the rules, not fuel them. After this, several more incidents occurred with ErryK, and we decided then and there, on August 26<sup>th</sup>, that enough was enough. We put our foot down, and removed ErryK's +o flag. We felt that after the repetition of rule-breaking offenses and more than enough verbal warnings that were simply met with debate and argue, it was time to end this. I can also affirm that the decision involved the unanimous consensus of at least three current channel operators. I am not some kind of horrible dictator against ErryK personally; I am simply the one who carried out the action of finally taking a stand against this issue.
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| And yes, it is unprofessional to try and unmute a channel by going behind the back of another channel operator who added it to the channel in the first place. We use +m only in critical situations, and when we have contrasting users both fighting for that command, it gets too chaotic. It is generally known that whoever puts on the +m is the one who takes it off. IF ANOTHER CHANNEL OPERATOR IS GOING TO TAKE IT OFF INSTEAD, THEY NEED TO DISCUSS IT WITH THE ORIGINAL MUTING USER. This is the way that I have usually seen it down with such operators as Sapheta and myself, which works very systematically and respectfully. It is simply malicious to act against another user's obvious, visible actions to try and keep a channel under control. If ErryK so desperately needed to talk to me, he needed to do so in a private messaging query. The face that he was scrambled for unmuting the channel simply shows an attempt to roll the snowball even more in the public, rather than settling the issue properly with me privately.
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| I am no way describing my own behavior on the IRC as perfect; I've made my share of mistakes, even a few as a channel operator. HOWEVER, I can say with agreement from other users that the only recognizable incident that can be remembered, a playful and unnecessary event sparring with KrytenKoro playfully, simply is inferior to the amount of times I have had to contact ErryK about his behavior. In regards to this nonsense about "Beep" and "Boop": wow, you're way off. First of all I don't even say "Beep"; the only time I would say that is if I said it twice in a row followed by "meow!", and that would be very rare. "Boop" is a catchphrase I have picked up and I would never substitute it for an actual response to a user's query or problem. IF someone needs me and I do not answer, I have probably either fallen asleep (I do so much work online that it's simply not worth it to turn off my computer) or left unannounced. I answer those who need help, I never shirk that with a little silly phrase instead. If a user is going to come to me specifically for help, I take that as important to them to seek out an individual admin, experienced user, and channel operator. I can tell that they need me for something and I do what I can to help them. Boop.
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| I'm sorry, but talking about one of our sister wikis who we are spawned from the staff of and share much of our community with is simply horrible. I asked for the conversation to cease, putting ErryK in direct violation of Rule #2. Thus the channel was muted as a "last resort" because kicking is ineffective and a ban would result in unnecessary drama, which evidently just came about anyway. We enter "Quiet Time" only when we absolutely have to stop the conversation at hand. Maybe you didn't notice, but (1) #FFWiki was completely aware that the conversation was going on and found ErryK and the fact that he started that conversation completely deplorable. This has probably significantly affected our relationship with that wiki that was already deteriorating, and any chance of bringing them to SEIWA or simply affiliating with them is probably gone now. (2) Saying that you do not like members of a community that we overlap with is, well, unintelligent. It's going to get around to them, simply put, so just mentioning it is hurting us. If ErryK was so HORRIBLY PLAGUED BY THE HORRIBLE FFWIKI STAFF THAT IS JUST SO HORRIBLE, he should have brought to a personal messaging query, a personal journal, or social networking for all I care! But not the IRC, that was simply a terrible move that breaks apart WikiRelations. I have made #FFWiki a home channel for the past, and the topic of KHWiki has very seldom come up. The only time I can remember it was just during the time of the move, honestly, and they were praising us. How nice of them.
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| There is also concern that I am silencing ErryK's opinion unfairly. As much as I disagree with ErryK, he could have taken the conversation elsewhere to an individual through a query or to #FFWiki directly if it was just so infuriatingly bothersome. When a rule is broken and we are hurting our relations with another wiki, it's time to pull the plug. The channel was muted to protect our relationship and morality with the ''Final Fantasy'' Wiki, not to stop ErryK because I disagreed with him.
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| ErryK has told me that being violent in tone and attitude, exercising rage and anger with cursing and swearing, and acting with a rude and offensive demeanor is actually a part of his attitude. This isn't something we can change, it's just who he is. Therefore, ''why'' would we put someone that we know has caused problems before on the IRC due to his ''basic nature'' in the position of channel operator? It's simply nonsensical. I do not have any personal misgivings toward ErryK, but I do not find it logical to give someone who already has essentially admitted that he is not a proper person to wield the rights mentally and stably. No, it wasn't done "on purpose," but it's unavoidable. All of those incidents were done ''by default''.
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| The de-opping was warranted, but not by simply this one event that broke the rules of spamming and not ceasing a conversation that was asked to be ended. It was a culmination of the many past problems caused by ErryK on the IRC. There are many other users who can vouch for the fact that ErryK has exploded in swears and threats before on the IRC, that is certain.
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| Also I'm Aradooria. Not Aradooriabot, Aradooria's Ancestor, or God Tier Aradooria, just Aradooria. Boop.
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| Now, we move on to the second incident at hand, the log that carries the conversation in which I gave ErryK a simple verbal warning to not swear so violently. While ErryK has admitted that this is a part of who he is, it cannot be said that it was a mistake to warn him for this. I do agree that when other users swear they do need to be warned '''''if''''' we want to keep such a policy in place. However, now I'm really not sure if we have left the PG rule in place. Whether it is in place or not, however, ErryK's language, not ''just'' the diction, showed a violent and threatening tone that needed to be addressed. I will agree that as channel operators there are some things that we do let slide by accident simply because the channel has yet to call for a systematic warning system. This is especially true for cursing since we do not have a definite policy for it.
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| Furthermore, there is an issue here with blatantly going against the rules. ErryK, trying to built a case to regain his position, still went against the swearing policy that we supposedly and apparently have, as to my knowledge that may or may not be correct, unfortunately. Knowing that his swearing was against our rules, he did it anyway. The reason? It was apparently the "only choice." This is crap. I'm sorry but that is probably one of the worst arguments I've ever been graced with reading on the IRC in a long time. There are literally ''thousands'' of ways to deal with a situation when someone is annoying you, and you choose the one that you ''know'' is against the rules? This... there is a lack of logic in this scenario.
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| Here, I'll even make it ''really painstakingly simple''. Below is a list of how things could have been handled that would not have defied policy:
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| #Take it to a PM.
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| #Tell a channel operator about the situation.
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| #Open up a temporary medium channel to take the issue off the channel.
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| #Abstain from responding and realize that you are just feeding the trolls.
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| #''Respectfully'' tell the badgering users that you are annoying them and you would like them to stop. This invokes Rule #2.
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| #Leave the channel, come back later when things have settled.
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| #Leave a message on an admin's talk page if a channel operator is not available.
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| #If needed, create a forum about the issue prompting a review or revision of policy.
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| #'''<s>Curse and throw a swearing and violent fit about the problem.</s>'''
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| As a personal addendum, I do not swear myself, and any time I have has been an extreme rare case that I would be surprised for someone to dig our of their logs. I'm rather disappointed in being accused of such, boop.
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| Also, we channel operators are aware that we are normal people. We put our pants on one leg at a time too, y'know. We even have eyes and ears and noses too, JUST LIKE YOU! WOW. Extended metaphor aside, channel operators take actions against each other too, you clearly are blind if you missed that. Seriously, are you not even reading this forum? Have you not seen KrytenKoro and I argue? Have you not seen channel operators de-op each other before? Have you not seen channel operators kick each other before? Have you not seen what happened on the channel last night? Have you not seen a channel operator ban another? This happens, don't be so ridiculously oblivious to this simply for the sake of rhetorical appeal in your argument.
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| A channel operator, one of many, in this thread has even cited that spamming and the excessive use of abrasive language is something that would require disciplinary measures to be taken. I think, as a community and channel operators, we can agree that when we have this many people agreeing that using swearing in such a manner is a bad thing... it's a bad thing! Warnings, bans, kicks, and/or mutes are completely reasonable actions to be taken during such an event. Or we could let the channel turn into a swear-filled hellhole with no rules and we just let people who threaten and curse do what they want like #wikia-kingdomhearts did, and I can come in around February and blow it up again. It could be like an annual thing! Any takers? ''Didn't think so.''
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| Killing the social channel is a horrible idea, so much that I honestly interpret it as just exaggeration of the event. Blaming the channel for some of the issues I'm about to describe is also plainly illogical and unrelated to the communication medium itself: no rules; people trying to rule-lawyer. HMMM, IT ALSO SEEMS AS THOUGH WE ARE TRYING TO FIX THE RULE PROBLEM BY RULE-LAWYERING. IT'S ALMOST AS THOUGH SAPHARUS AND I HAD A POINT LAST NIGHT. WOW. WHAT A SHOCKER. If you want rules, we'll make them. Don't silence the voice of the body trying to fix your problems, or end up with a mess of nothing getting done and chaotic misinterpretation of the possibly nonexistent rules.
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| Also drama between the Keyhole and us ''cannot'' be blamed on the IRC. Hah! That's like saying if two people fight in Burger King it's Burger King's fault for existing in the first place. If you want to blast the social channel to smithereens, we can just move all the Keyhole drama to the wiki like it inevitably would be! '''''WOW!''''' What a '''''fabulous''''' idea! Let's get rid of our social channel that keeps the princesses and RC clogging away and bring it back to our professionalism-preaching encyclopedia! This is almost as great of an idea as dropping purified sodium (Na) into water!
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| Note the sarcasm. Also don't put purified sodium (Na) in water (H<sub>2</sub>O), you will blow your eyes out. Boop. Anyway, most people behave on the channel, we are just having a repeated issue with a select few or singular users. The channel is pretty dead when I peak in there usually, essentially nothing happens in there for most of the day. There's not even mindless roleplaying or incessant fan-talk sometimes.
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| Also if you want me to yell at KrytenKoro for cursing now, I'll ''gladly'' do so. But that's not in our rules. Maybe we should try to create some new rules theOH WAIT LAST TIME WE TRIED THAT TWO CHANNEL OPERATORS GOT BANNED AND NOTHING WAS ACCOMPLISHED HOW SILLY OF ME TO FORGET THAT MONUMENTAL MOMENT IN OUR IRC'S HISTORY.
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| Now, once this is factored into our discussion, hopefully a new discussion with respect to the true actions from all the history of the channel and its users-in-question's previous issues can be made by the community. There are still several channel operators who have witnessed ErryK's violent, rage-filled outbursts several times who have yet to speak, and I can ask for their intervention should you need any actual evidence of this happening. I have logs too, y'know, just sayin'. AND NOW YOU'RE DONE READING!!
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| ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!''' ''*applause*'' '''CONGRATULATIONS!'''
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| I'll be taking my Manufactory run now, please.}}
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| {{KrytenKoro|For posterity, since I'm already discussing this with DTN on the IRC:
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| *A permanent flag removal (what I understand to have happened, if I am wrong please correct me) is absolutely not warranted without reasoned community discussion, as we are supposed to be having here. If an op is misbehaving, temporary bans are acceptable. Removing their opship permanently, and especially in contradiction of the opinions of other ops, is verboten.
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| *If people need to have discussions about the rules and the IRC is not obliging, it needs to be done in a forum, where things can have more time and reason put into them.
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| *The KHWiki-social channel is inextricably a part of the KHWiki, and its state and running should absolutely be beholden to the wiki community, not to just its ops.
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| To clarify why I banned Saph and DTN: It was not because they were attempting to clarify the rules, it was because of blatant and repeated attempts to claim that they were not violating the letter of the rules while violating its spirit. I am offended when any user does this, and I have banned or muted for it before. I do have to apologize to them, as DTN has explained that they did not know the correct definition of the term "rules-lawyering" that I used, and assumed that I was just telling them they couldn't discuss policies at all, ever. As such, I hold them blameless for ignoring my requests to stop.}}
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| {{LightRoxas|young=All right, how bout we back away from this calmly and look from a far away, unbiased point-of-view.
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| To me, both parties are equally at fault. The whole thing is blasted way out of proportion, and multiple users screwed up. Should ErryK have started talking negatively about the FFWiki? Probably not. Should he have come to swearing as his choice of gathering the attention? No.
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| But I still feel that the de-oping of ErryK was sudden and somewhat uncalled for. The muting also seemed like jumping the gun. ErryK said no names, and while mentioning it at all was not a good idea, I don't think it warranted a mute and de-op spamfest.
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| So I would say from my perspective that both DTN and ErryK have been unprofessional in this case. Both have flamed each other and I would say that they should go do a round in the Manufactory. As for the permanent de-oping of ErryK, I'd say that he should have one last chance. Any further outbursts and he can be de-oped.}}
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| {{The Inexistent|base=''Oh the shark, dear, has such teeth, dear...''
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| '''''And yes, it is unprofessional to try and unmute a channel by going behind the back of another channel operator who added it to the channel in the first place.'''''
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| '''''* Inpu sets mode: +m'''''
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| '''''* ChanServ sets mode: +o Aradooria'''''
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| '''''* Aradooria sets mode: -m'''''
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| '''''* Inpu sets mode: +b *!*@h218.80.185.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net'''''
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| '''''* Aradooria was kicked by Inpu (Aradooria)'''''
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| '''''* Inpu sets mode: +m'''''
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| '''''* ChanServ sets mode: +o Sapheta'''''
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| '''''* Sapheta sets mode: -b *!*@h218.80.185.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net'''''
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| '''''* Sapheta sets mode: -o Inpu'''''
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| '''''* ChanServ sets mode: +o Inpu'''''
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| '''''* Inpu sets mode: +b *!*@12.19.152.214'''''
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| '''''* Sapheta was kicked by Inpu (Sapheta)'''''
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| '''''* Aradooria (~Doorsey@h218.80.185.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net) has joined KHWiki-social'''''
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| '''''* Inpu sets mode: +b *!*@h218.80.185.173.dynamic.ip.windstream.net'''''
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| '''''* Aradooria was kicked by Inpu (Aradooria)'''''
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| '''''* Inpu sets mode: -m'''''
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| '''And you can save me the "that is a COMPLETELY different situation" nonsense.'''
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| '''''I am no way describing my own behavior on the IRC as perfect; I've made my share of mistakes, even a few as a channel operator.'''''
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| '''I never said that you said that you were perfect, nor did I say ''anyone'' was perfect.'''
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| '''''"Boop" is a catchphrase I have picked up and I would never substitute it for an actual response to a user's query or problem.'''''
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| '''Hm... then it only must be me. If I had known that it would ever come up, I would have logged it. But seeing as no listens to me to begin with, it really wouldn't matter.'''
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| '''AND WOW. I ''TOTALLY'' DIDN'T KNOW THAT OTHER PEOPLE EXISTED. I THOUGHT EVERYONE WAS AN ANT AND THAT I WAS A GOD, AND THAT I WAS FAR SUPERIOR TO THOSE FOOLISH LITTLE ANTS.'''
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| '''And... where did this "Keyhole drama" come from? If this is about the ''one time'' that I queried you, then I don't see how it applies to the entire wiki.'''
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| }}
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| ==Reopening==
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| Because it is continually brought up, I'm reviving this discussion. Should Erry be reop'd? I say yes, and to save us the trouble, DTN says no. Please discuss below. {{The Inexistentsig}} 23:31, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
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| :I second the motion. For real, and for ''all'' the reasons I and everyone else stated above. <sup>'''[[User:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#4997D0">Tambours</font>]]'''</sup><sub>'''[[User talk:Troisnyxetienne|<font color="#191970">Néant</font>]]'''</sub> '''[[User:Troisnyxetienne/Mensa|<font color="silver">Ensemble !</font>]]''' 23:42, 8 October 2011 (UTC)
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| :Re-op him. Just end it now before any other ridiculous arguments happen. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 01:24, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
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| ::In case it wasn't clearly obvious, it's been '''''roughly''''' a month without any disagreeing replies to my Godtext. As far as I know, this has been interpreted as agreement and an inability to ''dis''agree with the information presented. The sheer fact that there are users who support ErryK getting his channel operator privileges without having even commented or replied to the Godtext shows ignorance and/or weakness of justification. My decision on the matter stands, and I don't think another Godtext is required to make that clear. --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 04:40, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
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| :::Actually, DTN, the only reason I didn't argue with you is because, frankly, I think this whole stupid thing needs to be over. Arguing with you wasn't gonna do anything, because you were, and are, adamant that you are correct, just as Erry is sure he is correct. Arguing would only push this farther than it already has, which is a bloody ridiculous amount of time I might add. Both you ''and'' Erry, in my mind, were at fault. My solution is that we pretend nothing ever happened, and if anything happens again we hand out some warnings and have a Manufactory go. Continuing this discussion won't get us anywhere. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 13:56, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
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| {{Xion4ever|time=16:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)|talktext=I've refrained from posting on this forum for quite some time now due to unclear thinking. I've read this entire discussion-including the logs- many times. You know what I see? A blatant disregard of rules. That was the whole cause of this problem, wasn't it?
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| From the first log: Erry posted a very broad, opinionated statement. (Problem #1) Then, DTN properly says it should be taken elsewhere. (Right thing to do #1) Erry ignores that and keeps going on about staff, this time on our Wiki. (Problem #2) DTN warns him another time. (Right thing to do #2) DTN goes Op and mutes the channel. This is where all breaks loose. SIDEBAR: Now, first and foremost I want to '''''stress''''' that I'm not bashing DTN or Erry on any grounds. They're both hard-working editors in their own respects. </end sidebar> Most people, specifically other Ops, would handle this situation according to their own form of enforcement. Me? I would've warned Erry another time then kicked him off the channel, only if he continued to break the rules, that is. I can understand and agree that DTN had the right to go Op. It's simple: Erry broke the rules a few times, ignored proper warnings from another user- an Op. DTN going Op was understandable. As to muting the channel, that's where personal enforcement comes in. Like I said earlier, I would've warned then kick Erry, and end the problem there. DTN, however, decided to prevent another breaking of rules by muting the channel. I don't believe DTN did this in any direct, intentional attack against Erry. Erry broke the rules, simple as that. As for the spamming of "going Op, removing Op," it was stupid. That's all I can say on that part.
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| From the second log: Cursing is never the answer. I don't care if you're an Op, regular user, president of whatever, it is not acceptable. Do I have a thing against cursing? No. Do I believe it's a crappy use of words/expression? Oh yeah. We spent a whole forum on this on whether cursing should be allowed, and we're still not following it? Trying to justify the use of such language is not only a pitiful excuse, it's a reflection of a person. It would be like me banning users on the Wiki because no one bothered to answer a question I posted on a talkpage. I could argue that it was justified because I want feedback on something that could help the Wiki, but it isn't. When someone, I mean ANYONE, disregards the rules for anything- be it feedback for the Wiki, an opinion on what shoes to wear with this- you're in the wrong. Now, DTN's little outburst about clowns was annoying and probably shouldn't have been said, but what can you do? Everyone spouts off random nonsense some point in their IRC-"life." I know I have. To continue, Erry was in the wrong to swear and say "but I'm not that one who caused myself to swear." I don't care what stupid nonsense someone on the IRC said or did, you always have the choice. Try private pinging of people, post on multiple talkpages, create a forum. And when DTN said "Channel operators should have the basic ability of self-restraint and control. If you must have retaliated, you could have done so in a politer manner that does not go against channel policy." I will agree with that until the day I die. We, channel operators, are supposed to be the leaders and role-models of the IRC. We are human though. We get in trouble, do stupid things, and all that other stuff. Heck, wasn't Hexedmagica's OP powers removed due to him breaking the rules, with cursing being at the forefront? Just because a staff/op breaks a rule doesn't mean it's excused, or should be seen as such.
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| To conclude this eyesore wall of text, I say the following: this whole situation was caused by breaking the rules. To specify further, breaking the rules even though people knew them! Such a disregard of rules is not only the users fault, but channel Operators faults the most. We've slacked off on our enforcement. I know I have. The only Op I've seen enforce the rules more strictly while I was online has been DTN. Note: I'm not saying DTN does everything right. He makes mistakes just like I, or anyone else does. Since the transition from #wikia-kingdomhearts I slacked off from where everyone seemed okay with the way things were. I see now that that was a major problem, and I was completely in the wrong to do so. This is my pre-warning to everyone: I don't care whether you're a regular user, a channel Op, or a staff member, you will be following the rules as they are written [http://www.khwiki.net/KHWiki:IRC#Rules here]. Our current ban policy is three warnings, and you're out. Least that's how it was the last I heard. It will be enforced. This problem will not happen again, least not when I'm online. As for re-opping ErryK: The way I see it from the posted logs, he's screwed up twice [diregarding the rules from log number one, and log number two]. If we enforce our "three strikes you're out" kick/banning method to the removal of Ops, Erry has once chance left before removal. So, go for it. Give him back the Ops, but remember, one chance left. That said, I don't know if we already have one or not, but I say we create a channel operator policy. Why? The last few problems we've had on the IRC this past year have been caused by channel operators. We can start a new forum discussion about this, or use the plan I've previously said of "Three strikes, you're out." I don't care either way as long as something is decided. This opinionated, unwritten set we have now obviously isn't working.
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| I hope everyone learns from this, and moves on. We cannot be slowed by this nonsense. Play nice, work hard, and look at the wonderful place this should be- both Wiki and IRC. I'm sorry for this massive text. Thank you.}}
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