Editing Forum:T-Render Images

{{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}}

<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with either your talk page template or four tildes ~~~~ -->
{{EO|time=13:15, July 26, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=Well, it seems the Wiki's having an image revolution. Thanks to ShardofTruth, we're getting several much-needed HQ images for the Wiki. What I also see, as much as I hate them, are T-Render images replacing official images due to their supposed "higher quality." Why do I hate them, you ask? Because they are technically fan-made images. If we're going to continue uploading them to the Wiki in place of the official guidebook images, can we at least animate the renders so they're not trapped in that attrocious T-pose? Examples are:
<gallery>
File:World of Nothingness KHII.png
File:Xemnas (Armored Controller, Battle) KHII.png|This one I'm not too sure is in the T-Pose or not
File:World of Chaos (Dark Figure) 01 KH.png
<!--File:Xehanorts Guardian BBS.png|We only need one image of this guy, not three-->
</gallery>
For those of us who do not know what I mean by animating the render, as I said above, they should not be in the T-pose. For those who are able to animate the renders, they should not just be in this plain, statue-esque stance, but rather something a little different, like these images:
<gallery>
Riku (Dark) KH.png
Riku Replica KH.png|We just need a better image of this guy. The face is weird and the hair covers most of it. Plus, the tips of the skirt are missing.
Riku-Ansem KHII.png
</gallery>
If this creating and uploading of "fan/official" images to to continue, while I don't like them replacing official material, please replace low-quality images with these images, but only if they've been animated. I can't help feeling like we're doing something wrong by making these images. I won't feel comfortable about seeing them. Still, I offer thanks to anyone willing to animate/extract the renders.}}

Except for Dark Riku and Xehanort's Guardian (Which I keep removing for a reason), we only use these images where there is no official render to replace them, and since they are a game rip, they are as official as any of our ReCoM sprites. The ones that Shard uploaded (World of Chaos, Angel Star, Behemoth) are already posed and actually quite close to the artwork poses.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 14:33, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
::Then we should replace these images with the official ones from the guidebook wherever they appear. They should not appear on the articles if they apply to the "no render exists" category and they are still in the T-Pose. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 14:35, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
{{ShardofTruth|time=14:56, July 26, 2010 (UTC)|talk=I don't like the Riku images very much either, I'll try to get the official material scanned as soon as I can.
By the way with the exception of the Guaradian render from Dsfgd, the renders in the first row don't do the T-stance. I can only speak for myself, but with the renders I made, I tried to let them look as close to the official artwork as possible. I searched for the animation with the closest resemblance (there is no animation file inside the game files, that lets the models pose like the official render) and made a screenshot.<br>
It's perfectly possible to do make a different angle/animation/etc. if that's desired.}}
:I was about to say something similar myself, ShardofTruth, those first three images are not in the "T" position at all, they do not look to be anything like it at all. Animating them in this sense to create a position very similar to an official one is perfectly fine. However, freely animating an image in bizarre ways that contort the body or alter dimensions of the image to show certains parts of the image would not be okay, that would certainly lower the quality of the image, as well as the authenticity of it. Also, I have only seen "T"-shaped renders on the wiki a few times that I can remember. If we have no better render to replace it, then we shouldn't complain, because that would be the best that we can offer to viewers and readers of the wiki. Instead, we should just do our best to find/crop a better render. If we cannot, we still have that official T-render that does still offer a detailed view of the subject, and can support a respective "Design" section. --{{User:DoorToNothing/Sig}} 20:54, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
Maybe not Xemnas (Armored), but the Dragon ship's arms definitely wouldn't in a "___" shape if it wasn't a T-Render. And the Guardian definitely doesn't have feet like that just hanging there in the World of Chaos. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 21:00, July 26, 2010 (UTC)
:The World of Chaos model is devided into serveral sub-models. Because of that, the Guardian has no feet on the picture, it's just the end of his trunk. --[[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]] 21:10, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

{{iZerox|time=23:23, July 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Well as a model ripper myself and a provider of images of this nature I know a tad on the subject. I must admit that my Dragon Xemnas render is in a T-Pose (unanimated) but this is because the viewer displays him with errors so I can't get official animations with it. So I'd have to bone and animate him on my own. But I figured that it looked decent as is. 

Armored Xemnas isn't T-Posed at all. He's fully animated. But if you prefer him in a different pose let me know. I just couldn't get him at the throne as you fight him in-game as it's made up of multiple models and I'd have to play all the way through the game on an Emulator running really slow to get a good screeny and I'm not willing to do that. The World of Chaos Guardian is actually in a really good animated pose. He glitches in the viewer where his arm essentially disenigrates (stretches into nothing for eternity). I agree that the normal guardian image is terrible. I'll go get an animated one real quick that wasn't my picture I wouldn't have done that. 

As far as those 3 Riku images go I think they look great. The first one on the left is indeed my image and if you have any complaints just let me know. It's just been reuploaded by another user. --[[User:IZerox|IZerox]] 22:25, July 26, 2010 (UTC)

Edit: Here we go I've updated that T-Posed Guardian picture for you.
<!--
<gallery>
File:Guardian (Action) Render KH3D.png|Tis only one image and now is in an animated pose.
</gallery>
-->
I would hope that you find this to be better.--[[User:IZerox|IZerox]] 23:04, July 26, 2010 (UTC)}}

:Okay, ShardOfTruth worked hard to create those images, and it always has HQ. I don't see the point of adding crappier images just because they're "official". Can't we just be glad that we have those amazing images that other kingdom hearts sites are dying for? {{AurorSig}}
{{EO|time=04:17, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|text=I honestly think the Guardian still seems a bit too "plain", IZerox. And there's nothing wrong with the Armored Xemnas image you provided, but the images should be better than just "Hey, I'm Xemnas, and I'm just gonna stand here". While the Dragon Xemnas ''does'' look like "Oh, I'm gonna get you!", it still might be better if the arms were different. And Auror, we specifically stated why earlier, or at least KrytenKoro did. Quality does not matter. These images are only used if no render is available. They should not substitute an image just because it has a higher quality. Characters that would fit this category include [[Grand Councilwoman]], [[Grand Duke]], [[Lady Tremaine]], and some others. But otherwise, the guidebook images are the way to go.

On a side-note, I'd really feel better if the World of Chaos matched the artwork, no feet. If these images are to be continued in terms of uploading, they should at least be as close to the real deal as possible.}}

{{iZerox|time=04:39, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=Well how about this with the Guardian? It's much more animated or so.
<!--
<gallery>File:Guardian3D2.jpg|He's active in an attack now I would assume that's better.
</gallery>
-->
I'll see what I can do about the Dragon Xemnas. What would you like Armored Xemnas doing? I can put him in any pose you wish.

Though I do agree with Auror that if the image is nearly spot on who cares if it's not a scan? It takes effort from us users to provide such images and if we mimic them with near exactness I believe they should be acceptable even if there is a scan, if the scan is of lower quality. Dark Riku is one such case.}}
{{EO|time=04:37, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=Thank you, IZerox, for supplying us with a different Guardian image. But for the rest of the community, we must set up a '''clear''' policy as to which images are used where and when, T-Render or offical, and when they are not. Obviously an update to the MoS must be done once this is settled. If this is all ready in the MoS, then it must be made clearer. Recent issues regarding these images and this forum are starting to get out of hand.}}
{{iZerox|time=10:07, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|text=I fully support the idea of official scans and other such images over renders of ripped models when the image we have for the official image is of reasonable quality. See I've got countless renders of the models from the game that I haven't even bothered to upload because they're of no use because official images of high quality already exist and so there is no reason to need these:
<!--
<gallery>
File: Kairi.PNG
File: Ansem_Render.png
File: SoraConfused.png
File: SoraFalling.PNG
</gallery>
-->
But when we choose lower quality image scans over near identical renders from ripped models I find it baffling.

For example look at these Surveillance Robot heartless images. The one on the left is the official scan. The one on the right is my render from the ripped model. <br>
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727085523/kingdomhearts/images/thumb/e/e1/Surveillance_Robot.png/100px-Surveillance_Robot.png http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727061535/kingdomhearts/images/thumb/archive/e/e1/20100727085521!Surveillance_Robot.png/100px-Surveillance_Robot.png

Which would you prefer the dull colored one or the vibrant one that more accurately depicts as it is in-game? In situations like this where they look almost the same I believe model renders should be used instead. Though I would typically take poor scans or even drawn artwork over a T-Posed(unanimated)render.

Just some things to think about.}}
{{EO|time=13:32, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|talktext=Now, if the renders ripped from the game looked just like the guidebook images, an example being that Surveillance Robot, not just in pose, but general appearance, I'd have no problem with them. Yes, I know ShardofTruth's Dark Riku image matches the pose from the guidebook, but the hair, face, as well as the skirt are slightly distorted in my opinion. If you can get an in-game render to look just live the official renders, then I see no reason why you can't upload them to the Wiki in place of the lower-quality images. What's the difference? But you should not upload over an official image with one of these until it is like as I said. Make it its own file. That way, we have both files to rely on.}}
{{KrytenKoro|The Surveillance Robot image could be improved by getting a larger version, but most of these official game rips look badly out of place, and some of them are just...terrible. Like that Ansem one above. The Guardian ones, while posed, also look just wrong. It's almost always obvious that the image was game-ripped, and that alone makes it look mismatched, alongside others. Wherever we have an official render, it will always be preferable.

As for the Surveillance Robot rip: just by looking at it, you can see that the render has more detail in the face, allowing you to see a little of the texture of the head, while the rip is just a black void. There is also better contrast on the head spike, and the bottom point has an ornamented sort of taper that isn't present on the rip, or at least is beyond visibility. In general, the colors are very flat and lack apparent shading.}}
{{EO|time=16:00, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=Nicely said, KrytenKoro. I completely agree. If the consensus is to be as you said, then should we not wait for renders of better quality to come in, rather than use them just because they're there? I refer to the World of Chaos, the Guardian, basically any of the images I had complaints about initially.}}
{{iZerox|time=19:50, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|sad=All those renders above were taken straight from the models and their animations as they appear in-game except for Ansem. Ansem glitched in the viewer so I had to pose him on my own. That is a very old render of Ansem and I could do it with much more skill now. But what is the point when there are already official renders of quality. 
<br>
Though I must be honest in that I am getting extremely frustrated with this issue. I am capable of something not many KH fans are and so I tried using it for the benefit of all the KH fans who read this wiki. But I keep getting shut down and having my images removed. If my services are not desired I see no reason to even bother attempting to help by providing them.}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=20:41, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|talk=I don't get you EN XIII. If you want to wait for better renders (aka official material from SE) you can wait forever. KH is 8 years old and there is still no official render from World of Chaos available, if the Ultimania is using only a silhouette there may be no offical render at all, the same goes for all titanic bosses.<br>
There are also no official renders for the recolored enemies in Halloween Town, The Land of Dragons and Space Paranoids. For Timeless River you made at least some of them yourself, is this better than using a screenshot from the actual model?<br>Because the used model viewer is no developer tool from SE, the quality will never be as good as you want it to be, that's a fact. The only reliable way are screenshots.}}
{{DTN|time=22:14, July 27, 2010 (UTC)|text=I 100% agree with ShardofTruth, absolutely. There is no point in waiting any longer, we need to just use the best that we can get. And, in all honesty, the game ripped models do look better. You can tell in the scanned images that the colors have been faded, and they have a two-dimensional look rather than the three-dimensional look of a render. Also, if you are going to be so strict on allowing a scanned render, though not an animated, though ''official'' model from the games, then we obviously need to increase the strictness of our image policy, which means all of those handy BBS talk images to be used for maintenance and administrative template need to go.

This is becoming far too large of an issue over the style of a render. It's not rocket science: ideally, we would have something completely official and not user-animated, though still official. However, when we cannot have that, we just need to settle for what we can get. The quality of a game rip is better than that of a scanned image.}}
{{KrytenKoro|iZerox: I appreciate your work, and I have only been reverting the images where your version is of lower quality than the previous one, like with Shadow Stalker. To my knowledge, I've only reverted three images.

I ''think'' that one of the issues may be that you are somehow squeezing the images - compare [http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100728000713/kingdomhearts/images/archive/e/ed/20100728032027!Shadow_Stalker.PNG this] to the present image. Also [http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727085056/kingdomhearts/images/e/ec/OblivionRiku.png This] vs. [http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727070141/kingdomhearts/images/archive/e/ec/20100727085053!OblivionRiku.png this]. The Guardian image seems like it has been squeezed as well. Could you try to resolve that problem?

DTN: I'd have to disagree. In many cases, the official renders are smoother and have clearer texture, and while the game rip may have higher tint (I think that's the quality), it loses a lot of detail. For example, the Surveillance Robot image. Even the Xemnas forms, while showing much more detail than the screenshots, are still very low quality. Furthermore, the rips are often very noticeably pixelated.

Ex: [http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727085523/kingdomhearts/images/e/e1/Surveillance_Robot.png This] vs. [http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100727061535/kingdomhearts/images/archive/e/e1/20100727085521!Surveillance_Robot.png this].

Because of these discrepancies, I really think that we shouldn't use rips unless the official renders are either missing or absolutely intolerable, and the rips need to be very, very much better, and not just "This is a rip".}}
{{KrytenKoro|Okay, I really incredibly appreciate your effort, and I saw that you had complaints about how much work gets put into the images, only for them to be unacceptable in the end.

How about this: if we want to replace an official render, let's discuss the problems with it first so that we all agree on what the rip should make sure to show (though in general, it's usually just that pointilism thing, isn't it?), and make sure we all agree that it's of intolerable quality in the first place. There's no reason to have you do work for nothing.}}

{{iZerox|time=05:28, July 28, 2010 (UTC)|text=Alright, I must admit I realized that the Shadow Stalker and Riku images where disproportional earlier today as I browsed through Final Mix's models. Turns out when I had ripped them from the viewer months ago I had done so improperly and for this reason I've gone and re-ripped them to make sure they stayed the proper proportions. I've made sure they line up now. If desired I could get new renders. The problem it seems is that KH2 models don't like being animated inside the viewer I use. But I believe I have another tool that will work to get them animated with official animations. Just give me some time.

I won't be uploading any renders of past work from now on as I didn't realize how disproportional some of them were. I'll get them from the real deal from now on. 

Although the Guardian isn't one with this problem. He's 100% accurate. What is it that your seeing incorrect about him? Is it possible that your just looking too hard and fooling yourself into thinking such because your trying to find how it's like the others?
<gallery>
File:Ansem, Seeker of Darkness (with Dark Figure) KH.png</gallery>
See how the Guardian towers of Ansem even while hunched? It's just quite tall. And Ansem-Riku was quite a deal taller than Sora as well. More than people realize at times.}}
{{KrytenKoro|It just seems like his shoulders are thinner, compared to his head, than in the other images. However, if you're sure that there is no squeezing there, I believe you.}}
{{iZerox|time=18:18, July 28, 2010 (UTC)|text=Oh okay I see what you mean. It's all the right size though. The difference is that his arms are raised more upward so his shoulders move up and in slightly. It happens to us humans too should we try assuming that position.}}
{{ShardofTruth|time=17:20, August 1, 2010 (UTC)|sad=I'm just here to say, that I won't upload any more renders from extracted models. It's just too much work and when it's neglected it was a waste of time. Waiting for an official image may take some time, but it's not that important anyway that it's always needed right now.<br>
By the way, this is the T-Render, the other image is not.<br>
http://a.imageshack.us/img707/8515/trender.png [[File:World of Chaos (Dark Figure) 01 KH.png|400px]] [[File:World of Chaos (Art).png|400px]]<br>
And I still don't know what feet are missing, Ansem at least has them;-).}}
{{KrytenKoro|Didn't you put the Guardian image on the World of Chaos page, in a gallery? I thought that image was actually very good, and incredibly high quality for a game rip.}}
{{iZerox|time=11:23, August 2, 2010 (UTC)|mad=ShardofTruth! That image you produced for the EoW Guardian/Ansem combo is AMAZING! I've always thought it to be spot on with the official drawing we have. I believe he mistook your fingers for feet and I agree it does feel your a little underappreciated eh? I kinda started feeling the same with what I was trying to do. I would be very disheartened to see you no longer contributing your superb images that you took the time to pose and get ready. EternalNothingness (no offense) isn't the know it all he aspires to be when it comes to our field of work. So he wouldn't know everything about what different terminology meant when it comes to 3D works. Or it's possible we misunderstood him. But either way I really hope to see you here still contributing your renders.

On a side note I just ripped the Dragon Ship with the throne that Armored Xemnas sits on. Would it be preferred for me to get him sitting on it posed and create a cropped image for his image instead of him without it? }}
{{KrytenKoro|If you can pose it like <!--[[:File:XemnasArmorArt.PNG|the official artowrk]]-->, that would be appreciated.}}
{{Bluer|08:36, August 12, 2010 (UTC)|Reflecting back to why we created the wiki in the first place; there's telling our readers about the series, and then there's copyright on non-free use content.

Really appreciative for these wonderful renderers and rippers taking your time to get these images, but this is Wikia, we're encouraging less non-free images because of fair use. We've been removing official artworks from articles, putting them in limbo even though they're released by the copyright holders themselves; can't allow renders hacked and ripped from the game to be in mainspace too, no?}}
{{KrytenKoro|For the official artworks, we were just removing them because they were redundant and took up space in the article, though they are still viable for the Gallery: space.}}