Editing Forum:Moving the Xehanort's Heartless Page

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}

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{{Disneyvillainman|text=We've discussed moving the Xehanort's Heartless page to various other title including Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless), Ansem (Heartless), and Ansem the Seeker of Darkness. There re several reason for and against a move and so we ultimately decided to hold a topic about it on the forum as well as create a poll so that we could reach a final verdict. We'll end the poll Saturday unless there is a tie between two names. Any thoughts?}}
<poll>
Where should we move [[Xehanort's Heartless]]?
Don't Move it, leave it at Xehanort's Heartless
Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless)
Ansem (Heartless)
Ansem the Seeker of Darkness
</poll>
{{KrytenKoro|I keep on responding to this, but there's no "the". It's just "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness".}}
{{LapisScarab|time=19:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=I've discussed all I wanted to on [[Talk:Xehanort's Heartless]], so from here I'll play the waiting game. If anyone has anything to add, do so here.}}
{{Disneyvillainman|text=Well, time's up and it seems that this discussion has been resolved with a final score of:

Xehanort's Heartless-6

Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless)-3

Ansem (Heartless)-0

Ansem the Seeker of Darkness-2}}
{{KrytenKoro|Ansem, Seeker of Darkness got 3, actually. I suppose this is closed for now, though I still think it's an inappropriate name.}}
----
Update:
In the BBS mysteries interview, Nomura specifically uses "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness" to refer to Xehanort's Heartless. Seeing that he is using this name in a "all spoilers, all the time" type of interview, I think it's officially his proper name.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 04:11, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ex:
*"Xehanort’s Heartless calls himself Ansem Seeker of Darkness, and his Nobody calls himself Xemnas."
*"Ansem Seeker of Darkness thought that she had been able to search for a keyblade wielder, but what actually saved her was the magic spell Aqua had put on her."
:Well, if that's the case, then we should probably move it to that. It's better than a journal entry.--'''''[[User:LapisScarab|<span style="color:navy;">Lapis of</span>]][[User talk:LapisScarab|<span style="color:darkred;">the Night</span>]]''''' 04:14, April 1, 2010 (UTC)  
{{Disneyvillainman|text=I agree. Nomura's word is law, LOL}}
==Issues==
{{EO|time=14:26, April 10, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=I still hate the move. It's such a complex, stupid title. Not to mention we are a Wiki about the GAME, which in terms of chronology, most recently calls him "Xehanort's Heartless," a term that has been used ever since ''Kindgom Hearts II'', and is said in Kingdom Hearts to be the PROPER name of the entity. We are NOT a Wiki about Nomura or his interviews, where he very possibly simply used "Ansem" as an easier reference. Ansem is a more common term used to refer to Xehanort's Heartless, but it causes too much confusion in terms of things with Ansem the Wise. Just check the edit history of the "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness" page to see what I mean. An IP had added :

*"''It is unknown what became of Ansem (the Heartless, not the Wise), as the explosion of the Kingdom Hearts Encoder seems to have released his grip on Riku's heart.

If the name is to appear as "Ansem", it should ALWAYS be in quotes so we can at least differenciate a little bit between the two. I am also curious about one thing... whenever the term "Xehanort's Heartless" appears on a page, until we can FINALLY settle this matter, we change it to "Ansem," correct? Again... I don't like using the same name for two characters, even if there is a difference in titles.}} 

{{Disneyvillainman|text=At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Xehanort's Heartless is what he is, not his name. The character's only call him that to keep from confusing themselves and sort of as a way of talking down to him. In the interview, Nomura said that Xehanort spawned a Nobody, Xemnas, and a Heartless, Ansem, Seeker of Darkness. This confirms that the proper name for the Heartless is Ansem, Seeker of Darkness. While I agree the title is too wordy, it's what Nomura says his name is and in Kingdom Hearts, Nomura's word is law (even if he does get sloppy with continuity). But if we were to move it back to Xehanort's Heartless, we'd have to move Xemnas to Xehanort's Nobody and the rest organization XIII to strange titles like Luxord's Original Being's Nobody. It just wouldn't make sense. I personally prefer '''Ansem (Xehanort's Heartless)''' as the title but Nomura seems to prefer Ansem, Seeker of Darkness so that's where it should be.}}
{{EO|time=14:55, April 10, 2010 (UTC)|text=That's an entirely different case. We wouldn't be doing stupid things like "Xehanort's Nobody", as it '''isn't done in the series'''! Considering "Xehanort's Heartess" ''was'' done in the series and we are a Wiki about the '''series''', and he referred to Xehanort's Heartless's role from the time period before Ansem was renamed Xehanort's Heartless, I'm still against the move.}}
{{Disneyvillainman|text=True, we are a wiki about the series and Nomura's interviews are just as much a part of the series as the journal. But, I do recall DiZ talking down to Xemnas in Days by calling him Xehanort's Nobody. However, I do agree that Ansem, Seeker of Darkness sounds really weird and I personally think that if we're going to keep the article in this spot that it should be Ansem ''the'' Seeker of Darkness as he calls himself at Hollow Bastion.}}
{{EO|time=15:05, April 10, 2010 (UTC)|text=I mean we're a Wiki about in-game occurences. Nomura interviews are outside the main series. He never physically says to Xemnas "Xehanort's Nobody." He says to King Mickey "Xemnas, the Organization's superior, is the Nobody of Xehanort, my foremost apprentice." They only talk down to Xemnas by calling him Xehanort. Again, your reasons against my plight aren't getting anywhere.}}
{{DTN|time=17:58, April 10, 2010 (UTC)|text=If that is the case, EternalNothingnessXIII, then why have you not ever expressed any concern over [[Director's Secret Report XIII|this article]]?

Given, "Xehanort's Heartless" is simply the most basic description of what group the subject fits into, in terms of types of enemies and allies in the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series. However, there is one reason that we do not call Xemnas "Xehanort's Nobody" or Xigbar "Braig's Nobody": '''We know what their names are'''. We addressed the subject as "Xehanort's Heartless" because that we were uncomfortable calling the subject "Ansem" or "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness". However, now that Tetsuya Nomura has confirmed the name by addressing the subject by the title "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness", we should follow this. We know what the subject's name is that we should use. For example, remember when the "Isa" article was called "Saïx's complete being"? This is an example of an article that did not yet have an addressed or confirmed name. This is how "Xehanort's Heartless" was, and now we have a name. Just as "Saïx's complete being" became "Isa", "Xehanort's Heartless" became "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness". Furthermore, saying this wiki is only about the ''Kingdom Hearts'' game is absolutely, completely false. What about articles like...

*[[Kingdom Hearts Series (manga)]]
*[[Play Arts Figures]]
*[[Hot Topic Merchandise]]
*[[Card:Main Page]]
*[[Formation Arts Figures]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts Another Report]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts Final Mix - Additional Tracks]]
*[[Static Arts Figures]]
*[[Director's Secret Report XIII]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts series (novels)]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts Official Strategy Guide]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories Official Strategy Guide]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts II Official Strategy Guide]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days Signature Series Strategy Guide]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts Original Soundtrack]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts II Original Soundtrack]]
*[[Kingdom Hearts Original Soundtrack Complete]]
*[[Piano Collections Kingdom Hearts]]
*[[Piano Collections Kingdom Hearts Field & Battle]]

This wiki is about much more than just the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series of games. In addition, we are not shy to use Tetsuya Nomura's interviews as references on this wiki. For example, articles such as [[Organization XIII]], [[Kairi]], and [[Land of Departure]] all have reference tags citing an interview with Tetsuya Nomura. As the wiki improves, references tags will continue to diffuse across the wiki, many of them linking to interviews with Tetsuya Nomura. We have accepted his commentary on the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series as true, because, well, he is the series director. He is the one who planned the story, made the characters, and got it all running smoothly. He is going to know what is going on, particularly with the characters and stories he has created. If you deny the word of Tetsuya Nomura, addressing the subject as "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness", then you are also saying that all of his commentary on the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series is false, which means we just start tearing away many reference tags and remove the information he provdied from articles such as "Ventus", "Vanitas", and "Organization XIII", among others.

Also, I don't hail Tetsuya Nomura, despite how much I sounded like a cultist in that last statement. HEIL <S>NOMURA</S> GRAMMAR!}}
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 </poll>
 {{KrytenKoro|I keep on responding to this, but there's no "the". It's just "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness".}}
-{{LapisScarab|time=19:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=I've discussed all I wanted to on [[Talk:Ansem, Seeker of Darkness|Talk:Xehanort's Heartless]], so from here I'll play the waiting game. If anyone has anything to add, do so here.}}
+{{LapisScarab|time=19:30, March 21, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=I've discussed all I wanted to on [[Talk:Xehanort's Heartless]], so from here I'll play the waiting game. If anyone has anything to add, do so here.}}
 {{Disneyvillainman|text=Well, time's up and it seems that this discussion has been resolved with a final score of:
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 *[[Static Arts Figures]]
 *[[Director's Secret Report XIII]]
-*[[Kingdom Hearts novels]]
+*[[Kingdom Hearts series (novels)]]
 *[[Kingdom Hearts Official Strategy Guide]]
 *[[Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories Official Strategy Guide]]
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 Also, I don't hail Tetsuya Nomura, despite how much I sounded like a cultist in that last statement. HEIL <S>NOMURA</S> GRAMMAR!}}
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-{{BebopKate|time=03:32, April 11, 2010 (UTC)|text=Truthfully, I like this whole "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness" name, just for the fact it calls him by the name he's known by for the better part of the games he's involved in.
-From the moment he comes into play in ''[[Kingdom Hearts (game)|Kingdom Hearts]]'', it's "Ansem, Ansem, Ansem".  Then, halfway through ''[[Kingdom Hearts II]]'' it becomes, "Oh wait, not Ansem after all.  My bad."  It always struck me as a bit confusing for ''Kingdom Hearts'' newcomers looking up info that the name he's known by for three-quarters of the main series couldn't be worked into the title of his article somehow.
-YMMV, of course.  Old person rant over.}}
-I oppose the move I mean. Why called Ansem Seeker of Darkness? So what if Nomura did said that Ansem is his name maybe he think the name isn't that important so he called whatever he wants. The reason throughout KHI to KHCOM he was called Ansem is because they thought he was the real Ansem. But in KHII they stop saying its Ansem and said its Xehanort's Heartless.--[[User:Cococrash11|Cococrash11]] 18:29, April 18, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
-{{TNE|time=10:25, April 20, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm against the move. Officially, it's Xehanort's Heartless in KHII, and he'd be referred to by that name. Yes, he was called Ansem, the Seeker of Darkness in KH1 and simply Ansem in REC, but now that we're not calling Ansem the Wise "DiZ", we might as well stop the confusion. Also, the "Heartless" in Xehanort's Heartless makes things a lot clearer for readers that he is a Heartless.
-EDIT 10:29, April 20, 2010 (UTC) : But having said thus, I doubt my point of view would ever matter anyway.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|I think it's a very valid point, if not for Nomura explicitly saying "This one is ASOD, this one is Xemnas". That was really the clincher here, and I don't think we can ignore that.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|I was going over the KHII credits to resolve another issue, and I noticed that ''even there'', it credits the guy as "Ansem". So, I think we can put this to rest now.}}
-==Done?==
-{{Superdog1123|time=03:56, November 9, 2010 (UTC)|ventus=I was going through the Traverse Town Interaction page and noticed this forum is still on it as a hot-topic. If this issue is settled, should it be removed? Or is there still discussion...?}}