Editing Forum:MegaProject: Arise - Project: Music

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As part of '''MegaProject: Arise''', I hereby present Project: Music. So this is an extension of [[Forum:Updating our Projects|this]], as this is one of the projects, and a revival of the original Project: Music from four years ago. This new forum will hopefully help avoid any clutter/mess on that page. So, as KrytenKoro originally posted when the project was first created, this project consists of three parts:

*<s>'''Task 1:''' Obtain screenshots of the track lists for all Kingdom Hearts soundtracks, Japanese and English.</s>
*<s>'''Task 2:''' Translate Japanese titles. Until we can find an instance where the track list is in Japanese, this task in done.</s>
*'''Task 3:''' Identify where each track is used in the games.
*'''Task 4:''' Update the [[List of Kingdom Hearts series tracks]].
*'''Task 5:''' Upload any missing tracks.

Details:
*<s>Task 1: This is talking about a confirmed list of tracks, as taken from the back of the soundtracks. This looks pretty much done, to me. If not, we have some screenshots here.</s>
*<s>Task 2: This is for people who can actually/properly translate the titles. Google Translate is not a good course of action for this.</s>
*Task 3: This is probably what is left of this project...It is a rather large one, too. Figuring out exactly what pieces play when requires double checking by going by through the games. For example: Lazy Afternoons plays in KHII only when you play as Roxas; it plays in Days as the main theme; COM also uses it as the main theme.
*Task 4: What should be done once Task 3 is finished, which is update the [[List of Kingdom Hearts series tracks]] with the information acquired from Task 3.
*Task 5: This, I feel, should be done after Task 3. Any tracks we find missing should be uploaded as per the audio policy. That means they need to be converted to .ogg files, and they have to be 30 seconds (approx). We can't upload the whole track. Task 3 should be done first because once it is finished, the list of tracks page will be completed and we'll more easily identify which tracks are missing, rather than dive into the category pages to find the tracks. HOWEVER, if you ''really'' want to, go ahead and "jump right in."

The biggest task is Task 3, which is the identifying of where the songs are played. This means playing through the games, and it includes any extras in any re-releases (Final Mixes, Re:releases, etc.). Now, we're also accepting watching full walkthroughs on YouTube, as long as the source is acceptable (so if it's a hacked game with special characters, don't even think about it. I'll whack you with the Keyblade before you finish watching such videos). Please list below where you sign-up what videos you're using. It'd probably be best to use our affiliates (we're affiliates for a reason), but if you have trusted sources, go for it. Still, we'd greatly appreciate if we could have at least one person go through the games and confirm that the tracks play where they're supposed to. This is being filled in my notes [[Forum:Notes 29 (Project Music: Where songs play) - KeybladeSpyMaster|here]]. Below, I'll also update on what games have been completed and which ones are still in need of some work. You'll be able to sign-up for specific tasks and, for Task 3, specific games. At that point, I'll update the sign-up section below with any details.

==Sign-Up==
*[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Why don't you try it just to see</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>what happens?</small>]] - I have the KHII OST (JP), so I can provide those tracks, though I can't provide a screenshot anymore.

===Task 1===
*{{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} - Below is what I have currently found. 21:16, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

====Results====
*''Kingdom Hearts'': [http://rpgfan.com/soundtracks/k-hearts/backcover.jpg English] [http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.game-ost.com%2Fstatic%2Fcovers_soundtracks%2F1%2F6%2F16201_61061.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.game-ost.com%2Falbums%2F16201%2Fkingdom_hearts_original_soundtrack%2F&h=690&w=1400&tbnid=FFo5qtz7QfOx-M%3A&zoom=1&docid=EDRaKEQ7I8Ms5M&ei=mcbSU9zbG9SlyASRq4HACQ&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CFgQMygoMCg&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=773&page=2&start=21&ndsp=34 Another English shot- looks like the inside of the booklet] [http://www.game-ost.com/static/covers_soundtracks/1/6/16201_181792.jpg Looks like the first page of the booklet; English]
*''Chain of Memories'': (see KH Original Soundtrack Complete)
*''Kingdom Hearts II'': [http://www.game-ost.com/static/covers_soundtracks/t/TOCT-25871~2_back.jpg English] 
*''Days'': (see below)
*''Re:coded'': (see below)
*''Birth by Sleep'': [http://www.game-ost.com/static/covers_soundtracks/4/3/4304_40266.jpg Orchestra/copyright/composers and arrangers/that kind of stuff] (for main track list, see below)
*''Dream Drop Distance'': [http://kh13.com/forum/uploads/gallery/album_672/gallery_6_672_1401803600_51994.jpg English]
*Kingdom Hearts Original Soundtrack Complete [KH, COM, KHFM, KHII, KHIIFM] [http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll170/Matt-X-Psp/TOCT-26221_boxcover_obi.jpg?t=1218045163 Click]
*BBS, Days, and Re:coded OST: [http://www.game-ost.com/static/covers_soundtracks/4/3/4304_639104.jpg Track list, English]

This was on the old project page:
* ''Kingdom Hearts'' Soundtrack (English) - [http://www.game-ost.ru/covers/k/kingdom_hearts_back.jpg click]

===<s>Task 2</s>===
No sign-ups, please.

===Task 3===
I've added your names from what I remember. Feel free to replace your names with your sigs, or remove them, or whatever you will.

====''Kingdom Hearts''====
'''COMPLETE'''
*Complete by anonymous user, need someone to check the game.

====''Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories''====
*Incomplete

====''Kingdom Hearts Re:Chain of Memories''====
'''COMPLETE'''
*Completed by [[User:Xion4ever|Xion4ever]]
#[[User:Xion4ever]]

====''Kingdom Hearts II''====
'''COMPLETE'''
*Completed by {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}
#{{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} -- via YouTube walkthrough ([https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhFrPub2aXHBqHdvkGwo6g3jUSh2JSZIB Cyberman65]).

====''Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days''====
*In Progress
#{{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} - via YouTube walkthroughs/other videos. Can play through again if needed. Some tracks noted [[Forum:Notes 26, (KHD, Day-by-Day Information/Points) - Xion4ever|here]].

====''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep''====
*Terra's story has been completed, Ventus and Aqua's stories need to be finished.
#{{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}
#{{User:LevL/Signature}} - via KH13 videos
#{{User:Chainoffire/sig}}

====''Kingdom Hearts Re:coded''====
'''COMPLETE'''
*Complete via videos, need someone to check the game
#{{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} -- via YouTube walkthrough ([https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh4ut3YEBTnbkM67cNDJ6O-O Everglow8444])

====''Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance''====
'''COMPLETE'''
*Completed by {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}
#[[User:MateusinhoEX]] -- upon availability
#{{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} -- via YouTube walkthrough ([https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhFrPub2aXHCAk5q-9MyVzwtNQgD5zgZk Cyberman65]). Need someone to check the game for me, especially for events/battle not seen in cutscenes.

====''Kingdom Hearts χ''====
*Daybreak Town is complete
#{{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} - via YouTube walkthrough ([https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLhcSrKyqhfh5gWWmRv4rISACTyrZbPPsS Everglow8444]).
*Notice: Until the game (and its variations) are completely released, we'll be constantly updating this. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}}

====''Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX''====
;''Kingdom Hearts: 358/2 Days'' (Cinematic Cutscenes)
'''COMPLETE'''
*Completed by [[User:ANX219|ANX219]]
#{{User:ANX219/Sig}} -- via a YouTube video/KH13 videos

====''Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX''====
;''Kingdom Hearts Re:coded'' (Cinematic Cutscenes)

====''Kingdom Hearts III'' & DLC====
Incomplete.
*Though, until the official soundtrack is released (supposedly later this year) we should refrain from creating new articles for songs that first appeared in KHIII. For songs already used in the series, I don't personally see a problem. But we'll have to confirm it's not a variation of the song that is renamed in the KH3 OST. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}}

===Task 4===
For ''your'' sake, wait until Task 3 is complete, and all the information has been acquired to add the information to the list. You may still sign-up, however, and if you ''really'' want to, go ahead and start it.

#{{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}

===Task 5===
For ''your'' sake, wait until the track listing page is complete. You may still sign-up, however, and if you ''really'' want to, go ahead and start it.
#{{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}}
#{{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} - Notice: If this gets into August 10 and beyond territory I won't be reliable...unless contacted off Wiki.
#{{User:ANX219/Sig}} - Just for organizing the List of KH series tracks page, no clue how to record audio-- working on that.

==Discussion==
Task 2 isn't necessary. The songs don't have Japanese titles (only exception are the Utada songs); they're straight-up English (or occasional other language) even in the JP releases. [http://kh13.com/forum/gallery/image/10866-02/ Photo of the DDD OST as an example.] [[User:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#002395 ;">Ultima Spark</span>]] ''[[User talk:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#007FFF ;">(talk)</span>]]'' [[File:Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png|17px]] 13:19, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

Someone decided to close my tabs on my computer and I lost what I had written so far... D: Sorry for the late work! {{User:ANX219/Sig}} 16:34, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
:I wonder why task two exists then? That was taken from the old project page a couple years ago...Maybe then we didn't have the Japanese titles (Utada, etc.) translated? Also, if we need .ogg files- "task 4" perhaps?- let me know. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 20:52, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
::I'll add Task 4, then. As for Task 2, I also don't know why it was added. I just copied it from the original project from four years ago. If there really isn't an instance where the titles are in Japanese, then we should cancel the task. I feel that's what we should do. I was on KH13 (where Ultima Spark got the image of the KH3D OST), and even the 10th Anniversary track listing is in English. And that's a Japan-only release (like the KH3D OST). So, I'm just canceling it until we find an instance where the track listing is in Japanese. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 18:04, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Just providing an update. So far, we have completed ''Kingdom Hearts Final Mix'', ''Kingdom Hearts Re:Chain of Memories'', ''Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix'', ''Kingdom Hearts Re:coded'', ''Kingdom Hearts 3D: Dream Drop Distance'', and the ''Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days'' cinematics from ''Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX''. We've also got most of ''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep'' completed. So that leaves ''Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories'', ''Kingdom Hearts 358/2 Days'', the rest of Ventus and Aqua's stories in ''Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep'', and the ''Kingdom Hearts Re:coded'' cinematics from ''Kingdom Hearts HD 2.5 ReMIX''. Since we're mostly done, I think we're okay to continue to Tasks 4 and 5. What do you guys think? (By the way, as of right now, I've gotten 1,528 entries of music in my Excel document, and that's without the songs from ''Kingdom Hearts HD 1.5 ReMIX'') {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 22:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

===Full Tracks===
{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=03:24, 4 April 2015 (UTC)|default2=We've discussed the potential of having full tracks uploaded to the wiki, and whether that breaks any copyright laws. So, I've tried to understand Fair Use doctrine in the United States, which is what all the content on the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki is licensed under, to see how far we could use that regarding the music. There are some things I know all of us don't want the wiki to become, and one of those is a file hosting site for others to download the OST easily. However, with the decision to make the tracks into full articles instead of a list, the 30-sec. soundbyte isn't sufficient to illustrate the subject anymore, especially for tracks like "{{wl|Hikari -KINGDOM Orchestra Instrumental Version-}}" and "{{wl|Darkness of the Unknown}}", which are notably longer and face significant changes in melody and composition that can't be illustrated in 30 seconds (and in some cases, even in one minute). So, here's what I've gathered.

According to the [[wikipedia:United States Copyright Act of 1976|United States Copyright Act of 1976]], there are four factors that should be considered by courts in determining whether the use of copyrighted work counts as Fair Use. The four are
#the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
#the nature of the copyrighted work;
#the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
#the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

[[wikipedia:Fair Use|Wikipedia]] lists multiple instances/examples of each of these in action. [https://longzijun.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/music-public-domain-and-copyright/#fair-use-criteria This post] explains the entire thing very simply. Based on the two sources, there are a couple things to be said about whether we have the right to upload full tracks to the wiki. I'm going to make the argument for why uploading the full tracks would be okay under each point of Fair Use.
#'''The Purpose and Character of the Use:''' According to Wikipedia, "The first factor is regarding whether the use in question helps fulfill the intention of copyright law to stimulate creativity for the enrichment of the general public, or whether it aims to only "supersede the objects" of the original for reasons of personal profit. To justify the use as fair, one must demonstrate how it either advances knowledge or the progress of the arts through the addition of something new." Longzijun (the blog I linked) notes that one has a higher likelihood of successfully claiming copyright if "...the purpose is for non-commercial use, especially for education, criticism and commentary, or for strictly personal use..." Originally, all musical tracks are of a commercial nature. They're made for the game and into soundtrack albums as part of marketing the series. To upload them here would convert them into an educational nature, as the purpose of the articles on here is to educate the reader about the series. In addition, the specific music articles are especially educational as they delve into the musical composition aspect of each track with the "Composition" section.
#'''The Nature of the Copyrighted work:''' Not much can be said about this one. It focuses on the nature of the work. If it's factually-based, then it'd be fair use to use it. However, music isn't factually-based, it's creative, so no use of the music could be considered fair use under this point.
#'''The Amount of the Portion Used:''' According to Longzijun, generally speaking, we should use no more than 10% of the work in question to qualify under fair use. However, this changes depending on the way it's being used, and what portion is used. He notes how using the 10 minutes of the incinerator scene from ''Toy Story 3'' would not fall under Fair Use because that's the climax. Wikipedia lists some court cases in which using even the whole work has been deemed Fair Use, as well as one (''Bridgeport Music, Inc. v. Dimension Films'') in which sampling didn't fall under Fair Use. I think for the same reason as Point 1, we can use the entirety of the track and it'd be Fair Use. Longzijun notes that it'd still be fair use for you to make a video on how to play a song because it'd be instructional and educational, and since it's to learn how to play the song, the entirety of the song would have to be used.
#'''Effect Upon Original Work's Value:''' Basically, the effect on Square Enix to make money off of the music. Longzijun writes, "This criterion is related to the potential of your use of the work to affect the market value, and potential future market value, for the work. Of course, the smaller the actual and potential audience, the better your chance of your use of the work being considered fair use." According to Wikipedia, "...courts often consider two kinds of harm to the potential market of the original work: First, courts consider whether the use in question acts as a direct market substitute for the original work." In other words, we use the music with our name on it and effectively pretend it is ours. This works easily for us; we don't have the biggest audience in the world, so the use of the tracks on the site doesn't truly affect Square Enix's ability to make money off them. In addition, since we upload them all in .ogg (and I recommend we continue to do so), and we do not provide a means to download all the tracks at once, we further limit anyone's ability to simply download all the tracks; thus, we do not replace Square Enix as the source for getting the tracks (I mean, I wouldn't want to take the time to download all 400+ tracks individually, and that's not counting tracks made for each individual game).

There is one final point that doesn't have anything to do with the courts, but more with the likelihood of Square Enix coming after us for uploading the full tracks to the wiki. I read an article on MSN earlier this week, which was originally on [http://www.wired.com/2015/03/nintendo-youtube-creators/ Wired], which went into the world of copyright claims in the world of Let's Plays. It explores Nintendo's reaction and approach to their content on YouTube (and much anywhere else). There is something I learned from there to note in our discussion here, and I've come to the conclusion that Square Enix would NOT go after us for uploading the tracks to the wiki. They currently do not do so on any YouTube videos, and there are tons of videos on YouTube with full tracks (and extended tracks). 

Therefore, it is my opinion that we can safely and fairly upload the entirety of music tracks from the series onto the wiki for the purpose of these music articles. There is no reason to believe Square Enix would mind, and there is a logical argument for our use of them to fall under Fair Use. I only advise caution with two tracks, those being "{{wl|Simple and Clean}}" and "{{wl|Sanctuary}}". On YouTube, those are the only tracks that are ever taken down in connection to the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series, and the openings and credits are always muted voluntarily or by force (in which case, the whole video ends up muted). The reason is that unlike "{{wl|Dearly Beloved}}" and "{{wl|Daydream Upon Neverland}}", Square Enix doesn't hold the rights to "Simple and Clean" and "Sanctuary", [[wikipedia:EMI Music Japan|EMI Music Japan Inc.]] does. It's noted in the game credits and such, and when the videos are taken down, EMI Music Japan is noted to have made the claim, not Square Enix. But other than those two tracks, I personally believe that we are in the clear when it comes to uploading the tracks to the wiki. And the way the wiki's set up, we don't make it easy for people to download the entirety of any album from the wiki, as the files are in .ogg (a generally unsupported format when it comes to personal music playback) and each file is on its own separate page, making downloading files a tedious and time-costly time. Thus, I believe that we would not be violating copyright laws by uploading the full tracks to the wiki.}}
It's one thing to believe that they wouldn't come after us. However, it's another thing if they did come after us. Truth be told, so long as we can argue that we have a right to using the full tracks, I'm okay with using the full length...so long as we are prepared for the worst case scenario. My worry is that they will come after us- for whatever reason. Are there any other Wikis that do use the full length track? Last I remember, most followed the thirty second rule. Should they demand a removal of the full track, we can easily do that and go back to thirty second snip-its. Wasn't there an older discussion on this somewhere? (Perhaps Kryten would remember?) {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 20:49, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

==Reopening==
{{Xion4ever|time=17:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)|text=Since we're going to have even more music articles to mess with in the future *cough* Melody of Memories *cough* I'm revisiting the music articles/reopening this thread. As I mentioned in our Discord server, I forget when exactly we discussed it, but I recall us wanting to trim the composition sections? Something along the lines of determining what was truly noteworthy to have in the article. 

To me, the composition sections are basically musical "fluff" that we can add just to add to the article to help readers understand some of the musical things taking place- hence the musical jargon and analysis. However, I think, for our sanity and sake, the music articles are fine without that specific section- especially to finish creating the individual music articles to wipe out this eyesore of text: [[List of Kingdom Hearts series tracks|click]]. That said, if we want to still add the Composition sections to each individual music article but place a <nowiki>{{sec-stub}}</nowiki> template on it, that's fine by me.}}
{{TheSilentHero|time=17:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)|text=Maybe we could only cover length, tempo, and instruments used, without going into full detail of what plays when. That way we'd still have some content on these pages, but it shouldn't take too long to add. (I think. I don't know how you figure out something like tempo.)}}
{{Xion4ever|time=18:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)|text=I agree that length, tempo, and instruments used should at least be the bare minimum we cover. I get the argument on the composition section length though. I'm split because as a music person, I think it's cool to know what all is happening in a piece. However, to a non-music person, it might just seem like a bunch of irrelevant nonsense. Going further, for the music pages I've created, I've done my best to check tempos with a metronome, including any fluctuations due to tempo changes/different versions between different games/etc, and checking with official sheet music where available (Example: the piano collections). That said, a lot of the more descriptive stuff ["fluff"] can be highly subjective...which alone might warrant not using because it's too opinionated/interpretive. Even certain instruments may seem opinionated depending on the person- more rare of an occasion, but it is possible. I recall TNE and I discussing a piece that we felt had two different instruments.}}
@@ Line 143: / Line 143: @@
 ==Reopening==
-===On composition sections - What to include?===
 {{Xion4ever|time=17:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)|text=Since we're going to have even more music articles to mess with in the future *cough* Melody of Memories *cough* I'm revisiting the music articles/reopening this thread. As I mentioned in our Discord server, I forget when exactly we discussed it, but I recall us wanting to trim the composition sections? Something along the lines of determining what was truly noteworthy to have in the article.
@@ Line 149: / Line 148: @@
 {{TheSilentHero|time=17:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)|text=Maybe we could only cover length, tempo, and instruments used, without going into full detail of what plays when. That way we'd still have some content on these pages, but it shouldn't take too long to add. (I think. I don't know how you figure out something like tempo.)}}
 {{Xion4ever|time=18:44, 16 June 2020 (UTC)|text=I agree that length, tempo, and instruments used should at least be the bare minimum we cover. I get the argument on the composition section length though. I'm split because as a music person, I think it's cool to know what all is happening in a piece. However, to a non-music person, it might just seem like a bunch of irrelevant nonsense. Going further, for the music pages I've created, I've done my best to check tempos with a metronome, including any fluctuations due to tempo changes/different versions between different games/etc, and checking with official sheet music where available (Example: the piano collections). That said, a lot of the more descriptive stuff ["fluff"] can be highly subjective...which alone might warrant not using because it's too opinionated/interpretive. Even certain instruments may seem opinionated depending on the person- more rare of an occasion, but it is possible. I recall TNE and I discussing a piece that we felt had two different instruments.}}
-===On game appearance order - Chronological or Release Order?===
-{{Xion4ever|time=20:42, 22 June 2020 (UTC)|text=Hero posed this question online earlier: <big>'''''"Shouldn't the game sections be in release order?"'''''</big>
-There is no mention of this in the previous forums or in the music section of our Manual of Style. (At least, none that I have uncovered.) Seeing as I how I created most of the individual track articles, my only reasoning on their current flow- which majority follows chronological- is that it was established once on an article years ago and we never questioned the order since.
-I'm down for whatever we decide. I can see pros and cons to both ways.
-For chronological, thinking of the music articles as an extension of the gameplay...So, like [[Aero]], an ability, or [[Traverse Town|setting/area of a world]]. Chronological helps keep the continuity/set the scene or add a bit of depth. To not have it in chronological order is like zig-zagging across the series.
-For release order, it helps explain why the HD remakes have better recordings (yay orchestras by ''actual'' orchestras!) and sometimes variations or additions in actual music.}}
-{{TheSilentHero|time=20:47, 22 June 2020 (UTC)|text=To me, chronological order only makes sense for stuff like story. Other things "evolve" over time. Like, the BBS tracks are newer than the KH1 tracks. So it would make sense to order them by release.}}