Editing Forum:Logical Theory on Birth by Sleep

[[User:KeybladeKnight|KeybladeKnight]] 19:49, 8 February 2009 (UTC){{Forumheader|Twilight Town Library}}

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Okay so I've been trying to connect all of the pieces to birth by sleep and this it what I think.

First Terra is a much younger Xehanort cause they look alike and remember Ansem the wise found him without his memory. Also I think that he lost his memory in a battle with Master Xehanort and that is was dramatic enough to change his appearnce thous Xehanort having white hair and different eye color. Also the in Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix Xemnas talks to Aquas armor who he mentions is an old friend in the room of sleep where I think he was trying to recover his true memories. One last thing In final mix+ the engmatic soldier he speaks and says that he hates Xehanort which could be that he hates what he caused.

Now I really had no idea about Ven the Roxas look alike but then read somewhere that an Unbirth is somebody yet unborn. Which made me think he is the Unbirth of Roxas and that in order for that person to be born the Unbirth must be erased. Which is the last thing Ven says to Terra in the Birth by Sleep Trailer. This would also explain why Ven has no memories and that he wants to be erased cause he finds out when confronting Master Xehanort in the Olympus Coliseum.

As for Aqua I really am lost as to the connect to her and Kairi I could see her as the unbirth of Xion as they do seem simliar. 

So those are my theories on those three but I could be completly wrong I'll just have to watch the game and it release.



If he was in a battle with Master Xenahort, why did he lose his memories and not his life? Why did his appearance change from losing his memories? Xemnas wanted power, not the return of his memories. One thing I don't get: If Xenahort lost his memories, how did Xemnas remember the armor (which is supposedly Aqua)? So, the engimatic soldier hates Xenahort because he created Xenahort? How? If an Unbirth is a person that isn't born yet, why does the Unbirth look like an nobody (Roxas) and not the person (Sora)? Why say erased? Why not say die or killed? "Erased" is for data, not for beings. Ven wants to die so he can create Roxas? That doesn't make sense at all!!!!!!!!!
He wants to be erased because he has amnesia? Okeydokey. Again, makes no sense. [[User:Augment96|Augment96]] 04:14, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

My guess is that Ven and Aqua ended up saving Terra but lost their lives along with Master Xenahort and his apprentice but before this Master Xenahort did something to with his memories. The trailer suggest that Master Xenahort had some sort of ablity to control memories when he confornts Ven in the Coliseum either by unleashing memories or being able to destroy them. As to his appearance change he could given into the darkness as Riku did changing his appearnce and being unable to turn back to his normal self. He could have done this to try to beat Master Xehanort as seen in the last part of the final mix trailer where his eyes change colors. The question as to Xemnas remembering is that he remembers because he's used the room of sleep which makes those inside it remember memories by sleeping. Xigbar stated in final mix that Xemnas spends alot of time in that room when Zexion is looking for him. As to the enigmatic soldier hating Xehanort I think he's referring to Master Xehanort I had to rethink it. 

As to the question of Ven remember Sora had already been born and you actually see him and Riku sword fighting on the beach. Also as we do not know much about unbirths or how they are created I can be wrong. Also as to the "why not say die or kill" it could be the choice of words. Ven doesn't know Roxas will be created it's the fact that he finds out he is an unbirth the enemy they have been fighting that makes him want to die. 

Hope this clears some of the questions again this are all theories we won't know anything for sure until the game's release.

How come everyone is dead except for Terra? Is he the strongest out of all of the Chasers? Why would Master Xenahort affect Terra's memories? Why not just kill him? Why not affect Ven's or Aqua's memories? Unleashing memories? I don't get it. You mean he can give a person the memories he/she lost? Riku changed his clothes, not his eye or hair color. Riku looked like Xenahort because Xenahort possessed his body. Why would Terra want to beat Master Xenahort? Xenahort was his master and he was trying to find him. Maybe Terra's anger changed his appearance, not his willingness to give into the darkness? Why does the Room of Sleep give a person the memories they lost? You're saying that the Room of Sleep has Namine's power? But Namine put Sora to sleep to erase all of his memories, not give him back his memories? Namine got back Sora's memories by "chaining" them over a period of time. Master Xenahort is the Enigmatic soldier? Hmm, it's possible but unlikely. Since Sora was already born, Ven can't be Sora's Unbirth (if the definiton of an Unbirth is a person who isn't born yet). Well, that statement about Ven wanting to die for being an Unbirth might be true, I guess. [[Special:Contributions/149.150.236.189|149.150.236.189]] 19:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

As I said I think they ended up saving him but they die defeating him and yes I think he is the strongest of the the three. I took another look at the trailer and It seems as if Master Xenahort expected Terra to become the keyblade master possibly not wanting to kill his favorite student he erased the memories so that he would not be a threat to his plans any more. Also as to the releashing memories in the Coliseum Master Xenahort tells Ven that he is losing it and that he needs help remembering then goes on to summon some purple orb and then a shocked Ven seems to remember something possibly that he is a unbirth. Remember that in the begining they didn't know what had happened to Master Xenahort and his apprentice. Then also remember that they find out he is looking for the pure hearts princesses which is why they encounter him in there worlds probably leading them to find out that he plans on using Kingdom Hearts. This would lead all of the chasers to try to defeat Master Xenahort. Another thing in the trailer Malificent states that Terra has given into the darkness as does Xenahort who tries to get Terra to join him. Also the room of sleep is located in Castle Oblivion which has powers over memories. As to the Enigmatic soldier I mean he is Terra and he says "I have nothing to give but my hate for Xenahort" when sora beat him the first time which means he is probably referring to Master Xenahort as the one who he hates. As for the unbirth although Sora had already been born Roxas hadn't which means that an unbirth could also take the form of the person's nobody.

So, everyone's dead except for Terra? Man, that sucks!!! I hope that's not true. I don't know. It seems you see so much information in these trailers. And I don't see it. However, that doesn't mean you're wrong. Aren't all of them (Master Xenahort, Master Xenahort's apprentice, Terra, Aqua, Ven) Keyblade masters since they all can weild Keyblades. Wouldn't Terra be worthless since he lost his memories? Why didn't Master Xenahort make Terra evil instead? Why did Master Xenahort help Ven if he's trying to kill Ven? How come Master Xenahort has so much control over a person's memories? Where did Master Xenahort's apprentice come from? Why did Master Xenahort turn evil? Why does he want Kingdom Hearts? As far as I can tell, Master Xenahort doesn't need the Princesses of Heart. He can summon Kingdom Hearts on his own. Does Master Xenahort and Maleficent have an alliance? But why did Terra give in to the darkness? To take down Master Xenahort? If Terra has given in to the darkness, how come he didn't join Master Xenahort? How come the Room of Sleep has power over memories? How come Terra is both Xenahort and the Enigmatic Solider? How can he be both? How can an Unbirth take the appearance of a Nobody? I thought they can only take the appearance of humans. [[Special:Contributions/68.82.162.148|68.82.162.148]] 00:07, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't get all my info my the trailers but I watch them read info on the characters and make a well informed guess not something stupid like Terra,Ven, and Aqua must be Sora,Riku, and Kairi's parents which is so-far fetched. As for everyone dying it's prety true as you see the armor Aqua wore in the final mix trailer strangely enough with her keyblade struck into the ground. I'm not sure but I think that Terra,Ven,Aqua and Master Xenahort's apprentice are still apprentice while Master Xenahort  is a full fledged keyblade master. One thing that I'm confused about are Terra,Ven,and Aqua Master Xenahorts apprentices or are they some unamed master's apprentices. Cause I read the "three apprentices search for the lost two" but then I read "A Master sends his apprentices to search for the lost two who signal that a great diseaster is about to happen when they are lost. I am unsure which one to trust. As to Terra being worthless I think it was more compassion that made Xenahort spare his life. Also Master Xenahort isn't evil in fact as to the Apprentice I think his is trying to get rid of the darkness in him which is why he urges Terra to fight the apprentice so that he can be relived of the darkness. Almost a good guy obessed with the destruction of all darkness corrupted by the fact that he is a keyblade master thinking he is almighty. Thus he wants to use the light of Kingdom Hearts to save his apprentice. Which would be why he wants the Princesses of Heart to learn more of those with no darkness in them. I don't think him and Maleficent have any alliance but I would be shocked if he did. Terra probably gave into the darkness like Riku did influenced by Maleficent and his own drive to gain power and his wanting to save his friends by any means. He would have only done it in the final battle with Master Xenahort after he wasn't strong enough to defeat him on his own. Also I have to edit the Room of Sleep it is not a room of remembering memories but the place where Aqua's armor is at and where Xemnas talks with "his old friend" located in a secret room under Ansem's labortory. I was confusing it with the Room of Awakening in Castle Oblivion which does actually have some sort of ability to unlock memories by sleep and it is thought that another of Xemnas friends is there possibly Ven's armor and his keyblade. That is the room which Xemnas had been looking for but had yet to find it Xibar states that the reason why Xemas is so interested in it is because it might be where the other is possibly Ven's armor and his keyblade. The Engimatic solider is more of a ghost than really a actually presence. I think its like a chain unbirth, the actually being heartless and nobody. The unbirth is really more of a prophecy of the being and also it is thought that if the person is born that if the unbirth isn't destroyed it just fades sorta like a nobody. Which means that they could take the appearnce of the nobody.

Hope this goes more into detail and I gotta say I love people asking me why? It helps me think it over more recheck and edit my theory but once again we no nothing for sure until the game comes out which means we could all be wrong.

I haven't watched the trailers for a while. I read the info on characters like Terra but it was a long time ago. How come Ven's armor and Terra's armor don't exist in the present? How come Aqua's armor is the only armor that exists in the present? So, how do you determine if you are a Keyblade master or an apprentice? Does Master Xenahort determine if you are the Keyblade master or apprentice? What makes Master Xenahort the master and the Chasers the apprentices? The Chasers look pretty strong to me. Terra, Ven, and Aqua were apprentices of Master Xenahort. But it looks like he abandoned them for that other guy. But there could be another unnamed Keyblade master. That's unknown, for now. I just looked it up. It seems that there is another Keyblade Master who hasn't been named yet. This unnamed Keyblade master sent the Chasers to look for the "lost warriors". Master Xenahort has compassion, even though he's a bad guy? So, Master Xenahort cares more about Terra than the others because Terra is more powerful than the others? but Master Xenahort is the villain, as far as I know. How can he be the villian if he's not evil? Who's trying to get rid of the darkness, Terra or Master Xenahort? [[Special:Contributions/68.82.162.148|68.82.162.148]] 03:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

So, Master Xenahort gets a new apprentice so that Terra can beat him up? That sounds weird!!! A good guy obsessed with the destruction of darkness? That might be true. Which apprentice, the new guy or Terra? So, if Master Xenahort's a good guy who's trying to save his apprentice, why did he abandon his old apprentices? Why is Master Xenahort aligned with Maleficent, who's evil? I think Master Xenahort and Malificient have an alliance. But that's just my opinion. Riku did it to save Kairi and then to beat Sora (probably out of jealousy). When were Aqua and Ven in danger? So, Master Xenahort fought with Ven, Aqua, and Terra. Then he beat them. Ven and Aqua were dying. So, Terra gave in to the darkness to save their lives and to beat Master Xenahort. Your theory seems to be flawed. You say Master Xenahort's obsessed with beating the darkness. He wants to find Kingdom Hearts to get rid of the darkness in Terra (or his other apprentice). But Terra wouldn't have gotten the darkness in him if it weren't for Master Xenahort almost killing him and his friends. So, what made Master Xenahort the "bad guy" in the beginning? It wasn't the search for Kingdom Hearts. He only searched for Kingdom Hearts to get rid of the darkness in Terra (or the other apprentice) but Terra didn't have the darkness. So, Master Xenahort didn't have no reason to fight his apprentices then. [[Special:Contributions/68.82.162.148|68.82.162.148]] 03:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Is there any proof that Ven's armor still exists? But what can Xemnas do with Ven's armor, even if he did find it? Besides, it doesn't matter. Xemnas is gone. So, the Enigmatic Soldier doesn't truly exist? He won't be in Birth By Sleep? And I'm not talking about Terra. I'm talking about the actually Enigmatic Soldier. Chain Unbirth? What is that? Is it different from a regular Unbirth? Prophecy of a being? What does that mean? So, if there's an Unbirth, that means that in the future, a being will come along that looks like the Unbirth? Nobodies don't fade away. They only get destroyed. But I don't get it. How does an Unbirth take the appearance of a nobody and not the person? If Ven's an Unbirth, he should be taking the appearance of Sora, not Roxas? Roxas doesn't truly exist. [[Special:Contributions/68.82.162.148|68.82.162.148]] 03:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

First of all these are all theories I don't have answers to everything this forum is about the connections between Terra,Ven,Aqua etc. So lets try to stick with those things okay.

The reason for Aqua being the only armor was that maybe that was the only one Xemnas had been able to find during the time between his creation and the events of KHII. The only reason why hers is found is unknown but I think that Terra's armor was destroyed with the fight with Master Xenahort cause I find it strange that when Ansem the Wise found him he didn't say anything on him wearing armor or even if he had armor that was damaged badly. As for Ven's armor it is unknown as to what happened to it but it could be that it is in the room of Awaking which Xemnas had yet to find in Castle Oblivion or it could have been destroyed. Also Xemnas could be using to recover his memories as a Terra thous that's why he needs the armor.

Now as to how to determine a keyblade master your guess is as good as my. The thing that sticks out is that none of them have keychains on their keyblades except for. Master Xenahort, King Mickey and I think Master Xenahorts Apprentice I'm not sure about the last one. It could be what determines it seeing as how Sora, Riku,and King Mickey all have them.

As to Master Xenahort is trying to get rid of the darkness it stated that Master Xenahort and his apprentice were seprated for some time it could have been during this time period that the apprentice falls to darkness.  This is what makes him want to use Kingdom Hearts to rid his apprentice of the darkness. It could be that while finding Master Xenahort Terra sees the increase in power and is tempted to use the darkness leading him to Malificient. While his friends have a hard time beliving this he does eventually do so.

As to the unbirth I mean that heartless,nobody,and unbirth are all intertwained like when a heartless is born a nobody is created as well. Remember that Sora and his heartless,and nobody were all special who is to say that his unbirth took the form of won't take the form of Roxas. For all we known the unbirh can take the form of the nobody of the person because you could make the argument why doesn't the nobody look like the person the came from.

As to my theory being flawed I think its more like irony because of the fact that Master Xenahort is trying to get rid of the darkness in his apprentice but leads another to the path of corruption. Ultimately leading to the creation of the heartless, nobodies and nine years of worlds being destoryed by the darkness. 

Dang, this things getting long maybe I'll start a new forum for the other characters. Anyways hopes this clears up more things and lets remember this is only theories we could all be wrong!

What could he get from the armor of a Chaser? How come Aqua's armor survived but Terra's armor was destroyed? Perhaps Aqua and/or Ven took "Terra's" armor from him so that he would no longer have the power of a Chaser? How does getting the armor of Aqua help get back his memories? Even if he did get back his memories, what good would it do him? What makes Keychains so important? I thought Keychains represent memories and connections with friends. Since they have no Keychains, the Chasers probably have no memories or no friends. But what separated Master Xenahort from the Chasers? Why didn't he get the Chasers' help? I thought that Master Xenahort was using Kingdom Hearts to get rid of the darkness in his apprentice's heart.  Why would Master Xenahort use the darkness? Why would he need the increase in strength? 
[[Special:Contributions/68.82.162.148|68.82.162.148]] 05:04, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I know that there's a connection between the Heartless, Nobodies, and Unbirth. I just don't know what the connection is. But why? Why is Sora's Unbirth special? Fine, Sora's Unbirth took the appearance of a Nobody instead of the actual person. My question is why. What reason could there be for an Unbirth to take the appearance of an Nobody? "Sora's special". That's it? Nobodies do look like the person they come from. There's only one smal difference or two between the Nobody and the person. Well, if your theory is true, Master Xenahort reminds me a lot of Riku. The Heartless and Nobodies (maybe the Unbirth) existed for a long time, way before the Chasers' and Master Xenahort's time. [[Special:Contributions/68.82.162.148|68.82.162.148]] 05:04, 16 February 2009 (UTC)