Editing Forum:IRC Profanity Filter - again

{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}
{{LA|Vtext=It has come to my attention that there are some on the IRC that think the Profanity filter should be taken down. By the Profanity filter, I'm referring to the policing of the use of bad words, and how one can get in trouble for using one.

Of course, the immediate response is "Children have access to the IRC channel, and we don't want to take responsibility if they get in trouble for using a bad word."

This got a few people thinking: How many children actually ''come'' to the IRC? We keep on preaching about how non-PG related things could "offend" others, but so far, the only problems I'm seeing are arguments about the enforcement of this. There have been so many disputes over this, I want to end this once and for all.

For start, I'd like to get people's honest opinions about Profanity in the poll directly below this bubble. I want to know how many people think it is bad.

Now, as for the poll below the first poll, don't get the wrong idea. It is fully understandable if you don't want to reveal your real age, and you don't have to participate. And, if you will vote in the poll, please post an honest response. Now, the reason why I do this is to learn how many "youngins" are actually ''on'' the channel, because there is no sense stopping what people want to do if there is no one to "taint".

That's right, this forum is dedicated to either the weakening, or the strengthening, of the profanity filter.}}
<poll>
Does swearing offend you?
I could cuss all day!
Only if it's directly used in offense.
It doesn't offend me.
I'm in the middle ground...
It offends me, and I don't want to hear it at all.
</poll>
<poll>
What is your current age range?
Older than 13
Younger than 13
</poll>

==Comments==
{{LA|Vtext=Feel free to post your opinions below here.}}
{{DTN|time=23:35, August 20, 2010 (UTC)|text='''''<u>Opinion</u>''''': Polls solve nothing. They do not form consensus. A decision supported by the consensus and agreement of the community is not all related to a poll.}}
{{LA|Vtext=Thanks for your opinion.

It's actually not about making a decision, this is purely of curiosity. If the poll results lean on a descision that is needed to be made, then it can be dealt with then.

The polls we're the only way to keep it anonymous for those who don't want to reveal their real age.}}

{{OHTSC|text= You make much sense, I am behind you one hundred percent, but there's not much we can do.}}
{{DTN|time=16:49, August 21, 2010 (UTC)|text=Quite frankly, I think that every regular user under the age of thirteen on the IRC Channel had identified themselves as such. If they have already identified themselves there, and this forum is based on the IRC, they should have no problem telling us that on this forum. If not, they evidently do not care enough about the issue to give their two cents, since it would require them to, yes, do the simple act of repeating what they have already announced.

Also, your approach to the issue is essentially that the non-PG rule is upseting you and other unnamed, unconfirmed users that we have no evidence of being real or not. Since you cannot find a solution to the problem, you immediately decide that we should open the option to just get rid of that rule, so that it works better for you and the possibly unreal people. By the creation of this forum about a topic related to possibly removing the non-PG rule and the profanity filter, it is pretty obvious that you wish for this to happen, if the decision was up to you. To continue, this approach says of you that you cannot solve the problem, so let's just get rid of it. That is, in all seriousness, absolutely ridiculous. If you cannot solve the issue, the solution is not to just get rid of it. That just pushes the problem away and solves nothing; one or more of the involved parties will not be satisified.<!--Of course, none of this applies to shutting down the IRC Channel, which should be shut down regardless of the situation, since all other solutions have failed and this is the only remaining one.-->}}
{{LA|Vtext=Interesting theory. Incorrect, but interesting. Well thought out. You're attempting to read my actions and justify them in your own way. That's a very clever way to break someone down psychologically. Unfortunately, your attempt failed, and I am not thwarted.

I am not going to rave and rant about how hypocritical you are being right now. Instead, I have the following thing to say:

What's your point? That is simply a list of reasons against me, and, frankly, ''that'' is not helping anything. You have only gone down to the same low everyone on the IRC had escalated too. What a great example to set. Good day.
<!--That is about the funniest joke I've heard all day. There are several possibilities to explore when it comes to fixing the channel, and simply deleting it is cowardly. At least I'm conducting a bit of research as to why the Profanity Filter could be removed, but, frankly, it's leaning the other way.-->}}
{{DTN|time=22:34, August 21, 2010 (UTC)|text=I do not see how I am justifying your actions since I do not approve of them at all.

Second, on the subject of being hypocritical, the IRC Channel [[User:DoorToNothing|should be shut down]]. There is actually identifiable support for the action to be done, much unlike here, though not entirely. In addition, there is another solution to the problems the IRC Channel has been experiencing that I also thought of rather than just shutting it down. Did anyone ever bother to listen to it or consider it? No, the idea was cast off quickly. I assumed this meant that there was already disappoval by the IRC community, much like every other action I attempted to make on the IRC before I finally realized it was time for me to leave. So, it ended there, and now I just support the more likely action of lighting the channel up.

To continue, you are being hypocritical yourself by claiming that listing things against another user do not help anyone. Your last paragraph is obviously against me, how does that solve a single thing? You also blanked out an insult to me so as to speak your mind, as well as to not seem hypocritical. "''That is about the funniest joke I've heard all day. There are several possibilities to explore when it comes to fixing the channel, and simply deleting it is cowardly. At least I'm conducting a bit of research as to why the Profanity Filter could be removed, but, frankly, it's leaning the other way.''"

To take a word from your own book, "Unfortunately, your attempt failed, and I am not thwarted."}}
{{LA|Vtext=I see. Well, I thought I'd be polite and not point out your hidden message, and, to be honest, my hidden message was in direct response to yours. I apologize that it was taken the wrong way.

I can't tell if you are going against the Forum - which doesn't make sense, as you don't come to the IRC anymore - or if you are going against me. Does it bother you that I made the Forum? I can give you those "seemingly nonexistant users" any time. If this is personal, take it somewhere else. I am sick of having to deal with you all the time, DTN. If it is personal, I'm sorry. I know what it was, I remember, and I'm regretful toward it. I don't like being mean. I will even admit it out loud, as opposed to just hiding it in a hidden message where only editors can read it. 

On the other hand, I would be happy to hear any idea of yours that would contribute to the benefit of the channel. I noticed that the channel has quieted considerably, and I now believe that it was just summer chaos that brought the channel down. So I don't think anymore action is necessary. But, by all means, let me know. I wasn't aware that you had an idea, and if I was before, then I forgot. Sorry.

And I also apologize for the way the channel treated you before. You did not deserve it. You were only doing your job as the only channel operator present. I understand that a post like that is stressful at times. I'm not asking you to come back, only that I wish to convey an apology for past misdoings, and gratitude for all that you've done.}}
{{DTN|time=23:29, August 21, 2010 (UTC)|text=I am not going against you personally; even though I have left the IRC, I am still entitled to have an opinion on its issues. I am attempting to make sure the channel does not make an action is just going to lead to its quicker demise. True, I want the channel gone, but I am not one to support an action that will only further destroy it. I will let its own nature do that. Also, on the subject of a personal conflict, I have no issue admitting that you were one of the users who contributed to my departure. However, virtually every user who regularly visits the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki's IRC caused it, so do not feel like it is your fault entirely, or even significantly.

What does offend and confuse me, though, is you saying that you are sick of dealing with me. I do not see how this is possible, since I have been away from the IRC for what has felt like months, and I have not been as active on the wiki as I usually am either. Therefore, I fail to understand how you have to "deal with me all the time."

My idea involves moving the channel to a different channel and then destroying #wikia-kingdomhearts. I have accepted that some of the issues of the IRC are natural, though we have lost control over these actions. My main concern is for the users and for the reputation of the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki. Therefore, my plan is to move the channel to a new channel that is not at all affiliated with the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki. That way, the young'ins can keep their channel, and the channel's community can no longer shame the wiki. In fact, rules may even be able to be abolished if this was to happen.

Thank you for your apology.}}

{{The Inexistent|sad='''DTN, the shame of past events will never be erased.  The totalitarian regime that this wiki has become can be changed, though.  The entire IRC problem goes back to the few users that stay there longing to be a part of us, yet being shunned.  Why do you think most of them have made about 20 edits each?  Some users were just sick of being oppresed, so they ran there.'''}}
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+{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}}
 {{LA|Vtext=It has come to my attention that there are some on the IRC that think the Profanity filter should be taken down. By the Profanity filter, I'm referring to the policing of the use of bad words, and how one can get in trouble for using one.
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 {{The Inexistent|sad='''DTN, the shame of past events will never be erased.  The totalitarian regime that this wiki has become can be changed, though.  The entire IRC problem goes back to the few users that stay there longing to be a part of us, yet being shunned.  Why do you think most of them have made about 20 edits each?  Some users were just sick of being oppresed, so they ran there.'''}}
-{{LA|Vtext=EDIT CONFLICT: I... don't remember what my reasoning was when I said "I'm sick of dealing with you". I think it was said out of impulse mixed with my bad mood that was going on at the time. I believe I was talking about having to come up with a good argument to respond to you, because that, in itself, is difficult and "deal-worthy" XD.
-...Interesting idea. So, basically, separate the IRC channel from the wiki so that it no longer represents us. I can say that it would work, but I think it would make a lot of people unhappy. Detaching the channel from the wiki will probably get contested, for whatever reason that I'm too tired to think of at the moment. However, as I said before, I don't think action is necessary. The IRC has cooled considerably, and I don't think that your idea would be needed unless we ''really'' get back to what it was before.
-The Inexistent: Wait, what?}}
-{{The Inexistent|text='''Lego, what I'm trying to say is that whatever damage has been caused cannot be erased.  And, this damage was caused because certain users that shared the love of the series couldn't find their nitch here on such a strict wiki.  I know several users that left here because they couldn't be themselves, and now, most of them are found only on the IRC.'''}}
-{{KrytenKoro|Oh for tik's sake, LA and DTN. Just make out already, everybody already knows, so you don't have to keep pretending.}}
-{{KrytenKoro|Also, seriously? Who's been oppressed? Everyone always says this, and then never provides examples.}}
-{{The Inexistent|text='''[[Forum:Bye-Bye, Mirage Arena|W]][[Forum:Strict Official Image Policy?|h]][[Forum:Huge problems on the IRC|a]][http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=User%3AKingdomKeyDarkside&diff=347848&oldid=347844v t] [[Forum:Age policy|w]][[Forum:Dear Admins...|a]][[Forum:User Talk Conversation|s]] [[Forum:Wiki Thoughts - Please Read/Statements|that?]] Oh, and I really don't think you should be on the inactive list, Kryten. I know you say you are, but unless you are still hanging on, you seem to still make more edits than several editors combined. Oh, and Kryten, have you noticed that all of the prolific editors are starting to vanish? Several of the Top 30 are either on wiki break or quit, as well as several others only editting talk and forum spaces instead of mainspace. Kryten, we are all vanishing, one by one. I am not saying that all of these have been oppressed, but then again I can't say that they weren't...'''}}
-{{KrytenKoro|<s>Mirage Arena forum had nothing to do with the ops. It was a regular editor's idea. The image policy is not oppression in any way. The IRC thing is not oppression, it is people harassing others. The Age policy is also not oppression, it is asking people to be polite. The "Dear Admins" thing is someone throwing a fit because they made a useless template that appeared to be fanon, so I deleted it.</s> I don't see any actual issues of oppression in those, and no direct examples given. I see people giving generalized complaints about how the wiki "has gone downhill", as they always do, without ever once giving a suggestion on what should be done differently.
-Now, here's something people could actually do, instead of whining:
-*Suggest that we open up blogs again, or something similar, where people can communicate with friends without making it hard for gnomes to edit and monitor the RC.
-*Suggest a method for ensuring that the IRC follows the rules, while allowing people to socialize.
-*Suggest rules on fan-made images that allow their usage in the userspace, without obstructing the editors who maintain the filespace, or allowing vandals to place the images on mainspace surreptitiously. For example, we used to have quite prominent explanations on how to easily upload them to photobucket and display them here, which most editors do. We also maintain a personal photobucket account for the wiki. It is also possible to upload the images to a different wiki, such as Wikimedia commons, and embed them with size controls as is done on my userpage with my pet pictures. There are MANY options, and I even volunteered to be the helpdesk guy for those.
-*In general, ''report'' an instance where they feel abused or oppressed, and give their side of the story, instead of just grandstanding in the forums.
-Specifically, LA is doing the right thing here, even if others don't agree with his goal - he is stating his issue, and suggesting a direct change. Now, for something like this, it will be impossible to give direct examples of people supporting him besides asking them to discuss here, but as long as he can show how his solution is the best out of our options, then he should get the prize he's looking for.
-My suggestions -
-*I have posted a new draft for the rules, I think it's [[KHWiki:IRC/Draft]]. It should explain the rules more simply, and explain why they are important. It would be nice if we could use that write-up as our official one.
-*We could look into splitting the IRC, as we do with the forums. One thread for asking for wiki help, one for socializing, and one for R-rated socializing.
-*Once the new admins are elected, we'll have more ops on the channel, to keep people from trolling others. That should ease some of the issues people had about the IRC.
-Finally, about me being inactive - As an admin, I am. I don't intend to help anyone who asks for it on my talk page, unless I feel like it. And if I can get the listing from wikia that I want, I'll only be here on weekends, and once I start getting paid, I'm not even going to do that. I'm only still here because I've been able to get my work done faster than my boss can give me new stuff.
-EDIT CONFLICT - O, that. Yeah, from my personal experience, I want to leave because I am so incredibly tired of people complaining without ever offering a hand to help. I'm only still here because of an obsessive personality and the hope that this wiki will be worth reading, since there's not enough interesting people to talk to.}}
-{{The Inexistent|text='''Like I said before, Project:Community.  I don't how it would be organized, but it would be used to plan more community events to bring everyone ''closer''.'''}}
-{{TNE|time=06:27, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|sadtext=Now let me make it clear that on the subject of the Profanity Filter, I have identified the people who keep going on breaking the swear rule, and distastefully at that. And what's more is that I get reports saying that some, if not all, of these people have been unbanned.
-Whilst it's time for us to live and let live as far as these people are concerned, we need to make something clear enough for them. Some of these people just cannot be spoken to.}}