Editing Forum:Can Heartless Use the Keyblade?

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This has been bugging me recently. I've always operated under the assumption that this was impossible, & that's why Not-Ansem had to possess Riku. Then the Wiki dropped a bomb on me by arguing that Sora could technically be considered a Heartless until he reunites with Roxas. Up until then, I'd assumed that he was incomplete, but still fundamentally a normal person. Not a Heartless. I'm still not sure which interpretation is true. But supposing he is a Heartless, he's able to wield the Keyblade, but presumably wasn't in his Shadow form. And even if that's not true, we still have to wonder why a Nobody can use a Keyblade, but a Heartless can't. It's all very confusing, anyone think that they can shed some light on this?[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] ([[User talk:Neo Bahamut|talk]]) 01:41, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

{{TLL13|time=Taylorlauntnerlvr13 14:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)|talk=All I know is that the nobodies can't use keyblades, with the exceptions of Roxas and Xion. I suppose Namine COULD since she is Kairi, really. The heartless cant weild keyblades. Anti-Sora is the Sora heartless you are thinking of. Its called Anti-Form, not Shadow form, by the way..... Also, the reason Roxas and Xion can use the keyblades is because they are essentially Sora. Therefore, Heartless can't use keyblades because they are evil. Does that help???}}
:Oh, my, no. There's nothing to say that Nobodies, in general, can't use the Keyblade. So far, all we know is that Nobodies & Replicas of Keyblade Wielders can, except Xemnas, for some reason or another. Anti-Form is not a Heartless, & is distinct from Anti-Sora, which near as I can tell is a Heartless that copies Sora's appearance--but its Keyblade is probably fake. The Heartless to which I am referring is (1) Sora, transformed into a Shadow, in Hollow Bastion & (2) Sora, from the end of KH1 until the beginning of KH2. For 2, we don't know that he is technically considered a Heartless at this time, but that's the Wiki's general position which, if true, leads to this question. Being evil is not a barrier towards using the Keyblade, & it's also kind of a subjective term.[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] ([[User talk:Neo Bahamut|talk]]) 21:39, 6 September 2013 (UTC)



{{TLL13|time=Taylorlauntnerlvr13 14:48, 9 September 2013 (UTC)|talk=Well, then, you answered your own question, i guess.....}}
:No, I only defined the subjects involved, & listed the knowns & unknowns. There's still no clear answer for whether or not Heartless can use the Keyblade, why, or if Sora is considered a Heartless during Chain of Memories.[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] ([[User talk:Neo Bahamut|talk]]) 20:12, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
::Sora was separated from his body from Hollow Bastion to Twilight Town, so for most intents he should count as a Heartless, although DiZ considers him to have stopped being a Heartless when he got his body back. Furthermore, Ansem is part of Xehanort's Organization XIII, implied to be Keyblade wielders for darkness, and Young Xehanort gave up his body in order to travel through time, so it seems as if he would be a Heartless as well. Xehanort also talks about Keyblade Masters being able to extract their own hearts in order to attain immortality. According to the glossary, the "heart must be proven" to wield a Keyblade, but if that rules out anything it would be true Nobodies, of which there's an awful lack; even the Organization XIII had hearts, in the end. In the end, there doesn't seem to be any reason to believe that a Heartless ''couldn't'' wield a Keyblade, provided its heart was strong enough to wield one in the first place. Its main obstacle would be that non-agents of light can't stand against them, but that's clearly surmountable as shown by the scads of evil wielders in the series.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:43, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:::Good point about DiZ, he's kind of an authority on Heartless, though he has been wrong before. I'm not sure about the point on Xehanort, though. It was my impression that Young Xehanort actually did not give up his body, rather that Not-Ansem somehow transferred the time travel ability to him. This could explain how he could gather the various others (Xemnas, Saix, etc.), even though there's no indication that they'd ever given up their bodies. I also don't think that a disembodied heart is de facto a Heartless, though I'm not sure if that's what you were saying. Either way, Kairi's heart can leave her body, but she can't become a Heartless. The key seems to be that the darkness takes it over. Getting around to the main point, I almost remember it being said somewhere that Heartless can't use Keyblades, but maybe I just imagined that line? If not, I agree that there's no clear indication, except MAYBE the line about Heartless "being hearts but having no hearts of their own," but it would be very bizarre if they played up Not-Ansem being unable to directly fight with a Keyblade so much just to have him go "lol jk i had it teh hole teim!" You would think that the True Organization would all use Keyblades, wouldn't you? So far, it's been limited to Xehanort, but I have high hopes that he'll up the ante for KH3, considering that the Organization is up against a growing number of Keyblade Masters, some of whom are swinging twin keys around like it's going out of style.[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] ([[User talk:Neo Bahamut|talk]]) 23:29, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
::As far as playing it up, Nomura has indicated in the past (probably in reference to Eraqus or Terra's heart) that Xemnas chose not to use a Keyblade, rather than being unable. As far as Young Xehanort, yeah, it says he had to give up his body temporarily to time travel, and he's given his heart to darkness and everything. I don't really see a reason he would not be considered a Heartless other than "if Nomura decided he wasn't".
::By the way, gamefaqs has the scripts if you want to just check those.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:44, 13 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I don't really think that I could check through the whole script, but that sounds lot like Not-Ansem. And I assume that Nomura is using a cheeky definition of "choose." If it's just that Xemnas literally did not feel like it...can you say, "Plot hole"?[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] ([[User talk:Neo Bahamut|talk]]) 01:15, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
::No, it's Young Xehanort. Either prove it wrong or don't keep saying it's wrong.
::Nomura said something like "Xemnas may have had a reason to not use a Keyblade, if he had one."{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
:::That's not how it works, dude. I'm not going to agree to something just because you claim it's true. You're making the claim that something happened that wasn't explicitly shown, the burden is on YOU to prove it, & I'm not going to sit here hunting through archives for a quote that might not even exist. If it's so obvious, you should be able to show why it's true, instead of getting mad that I'm not taking your word for it. On the other hand, Not-Ansem WAS established to have left his body, went back in time, & started the time loop with Young Xehanort. I don't have anything to prove, because my theory already accounts for the events.[[User:Neo Bahamut|Neo Bahamut]] ([[User talk:Neo Bahamut|talk]]) 14:18, 15 September 2013 (UTC)