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Talk:Soul Eater: Difference between revisions
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:::Wasn't gonna make that joke, but thanks for bringing it up yourself and making my input in that situation unnecesarry. --Evnyofdeath 22:21, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | :::Wasn't gonna make that joke, but thanks for bringing it up yourself and making my input in that situation unnecesarry. --Evnyofdeath 22:21, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | ||
Also, I've READ THOSE LINKS ALREADY and stated my opinion on them. To me it seems someone is trying to use a game mechanic and a JOKE WEAPON to prove his point. --Evnyofdeath 22:22, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | Also, I've READ THOSE LINKS ALREADY and stated my opinion on them. To me it seems someone is trying to use a game mechanic and a JOKE WEAPON to prove his point. --Evnyofdeath 22:22, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | ||
{{ST|text=ardless, Kryten, the mobile evidence is invalid because it's been contradicted in days, and i'm not sure how clearly labeling Riku's weapon as a Sword is in any way inderect, the soul eater releasing hearts evidence is invalid because's been contradicted throught the whole damn series, and the Nomura quote is invalid as evidence because it's completely open to interpretation. Again, YOU. HAVE. NO. PROOF.}} | |||
:I really should stay out of this, but let me state again: | |||
*Mobile does not contradict Days. As I said before, a Keyblade is a type of Sword. Furthermore, it labels Riku's '''weapon-type''' as a Sword, not the Soul Eater. That is the definition of "indirect", since it also applies to the Oblivion and Way to the Dawn. | |||
*The hearts thing is not contradicted anywhere. A contradiction would be a Keyblade releasing grey hearts, or someone saying "Keyblades can't release hearts". What we have here is a ''plot hole'', a point where something happens without a clear explanation. Possible explanations include (1) Sora was close by enough for it to count as his Keyblade's effect; (2) They only looked pink in KH2 due to a pink disco ball in the vicinity; (3) They were ''disguised'' as released hearts, because they were undercover as part of an attempt to bring down the Pink Conspiracy. | |||
*In that quote, Nomura point blank says that the Way to the Dawn is the Soul Eater: | |||
<blockquote>Is that Keyblade a transfigured version of Soul Eater? Nomura: I designed it with that image. Since Riku has always been using Soul Eater, he still calls it that even after it changed form.</blockquote> | |||
*He also says something similar in the Director's Secret Report XIII. | |||
Finally, as I've said before, categories are non-exclusive. That's why we have the Oblivion and Way to the Dawn in the "Swords" category, because Days calls them Swords. | |||
So, in summary: | |||
#Mobile calls it a Keyblade. | |||
#Nothing explicitly says "Not. A. Keyblade." | |||
#Ergo, it is a Keyblade in all appearances, no matter the provenance, until proven otherwise. | |||
(1) and (2) together are the only proof needed, even though, as I've presented above, there is more. The simple fact that in just ''one'' officially licensed product, it is called a Keyblade, is enough to consider it one until we find evidence otherwise. If we operated differently, for example, we would have no name for the Keyblade Kairi wields in KHII, because the game doesn't explicitly state at that point that it is named "Destiny's Embrace". It is later, in KHBbS, that the thing is given that name, but under an exclusionary logic, that still wouldn't count for KHII...which is why we don't use that kind of reasoning.[[User:KrytenKoro|(ಠ_ೃ)]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>Bully!</small>]] 23:25, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
"Nothing explicitly says "Not. A. Keyblade""? you're really inputting that in as ''evidence''? under that we could call just about ''anything'' a keyblade. the rest of that could make sense if you think about it the rightway, but seriously? "Nothing explicitly says "Not. A. Keyblade""? damn Kryten you had me fooled into thinking that you knew what the hell "evidence" was --[[User:ShadowsTwilight|ShadowsTwilight]] 23:56, October 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
... After reading this entire text wall, I can conclude that Kryten is indeed right, and that I/we are wrong. Seriously guys, he showed us the evidence, I don't get what else you could possibly want. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} | |||
:Yay verily. ST, did you even bother to read the ''rest'' of Kryten's post? Or are you just going to denounce a six-word segment as bullcrap, without taking notice of the rest of it? No, of course not; if you ''did'', you would have noticed Kryten labelled that point as part of his ''summary'', not ''evidence''. So you, good sir, are the one who doesn't know, "what the hell evidence [is]". [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 00:09, October 22, 2010 (UTC) | |||
You people are hopeless -_- This argument ''has'' lapsed <s>almost</s> 3/4 of the page now. ST, your posts have grown to pure stubborness. You are refusing to admit that you might, ''might'', be wrong. And telling someone that points in ''their'' argument are void is a pretty poor way to convince people that you are correct. | |||
Here are my two cents: I think that you are both sort of right. I was always under the impression that - yes, Soul Eater IS a Keyblade, however, it is more of a prototype Keyblade, or rather, not a ''true'' Keyblade. Riku acquired it when he couldn't wield a Keyblade, because his heart was too weak, but then it transformed into a real one when his heart grew stronger. So it was sort of his preliminary weapon until he got the strength to wield a true one. So it could be a different ''kind'' of Keyblade. It could work quite similar to bleach: Soul Eater is the unreleased state of a Zanpakuto, and Way to Dawn is the released state. Only it's, you know, permanently released. Just stop fighting about this, it's getting on my nerves >_> --{{User:LegoAlchemist/Sig}} 01:11, October 22, 2010 (UTC) | |||
:Indeed. Not to mention there's nothing in the article that you should find objectionable. The page says Soul Eater "is a form of one of Riku's Keyblades" and "is a sword that grows more powerful when used with darkness", both of which are true. Additionally, as a weapon strongly connected to Keyblades, as it is a proto-Keyblade, all of its categories are appropriate. The only thing you have to argue over is the "Riku's swords" template. --[[User:Neumannz|'''<span style="font-family:Gisha; color:#005400">Neumannz</span>''']], [[User talk:Neumannz|''<span style="color:black; font-family:Agency FB Bold">The Dark Falcon</span>'']] 01:19, October 22, 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{Zaqaree|time=05:29, December 14, 2010 (UTC)|text=Let's define what makes a keyblade... | |||
1.It releases hearts from Emblem Heartless | |||
2.Its a universal key | |||
Any thing without any of these two things, NOT A KEYBLADE. | |||
Okay, Let's talk about Soul Eater. In Days, when playing as Riku, if his weapon is Soul Eater, it doesn't release hearts. You see, when a weapon other than the keyblade defeats a Heartless, the hearts go straight back into the Realm Of Darkness and become a Heartless again. This is signified by a Grey Heart coming out of the slain Heartless. Since GREY HEARTS come out of heartless from heartless defeated by Riku's Soul Eater, therefore, it is NOT A KEYBLADE. Sure, you can argue it releases Pink Hearts in Chain of Memories, but it's likely due to animator's laziness, seeing that Cloud's sword and Squall's Gunblade also releases Pink Hearts in KH2. And don't give the crap that it is an intermediary for Way to The Dawn. Nomura meant that Soul Eater was used by the Way to The Dawn to manifest a physical form instead on taking a form by itself. }} | |||
:Except that's just fucking wrong. It releases pink hearts in ''every'' game it appears in.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 05:38, December 14, 2010 (UTC) | |||
::I played Days and it DID releases pink Hearts. I got teh proof {{User:17master/Sign}} 16:08, December 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{Maggosh|flint=We're not back to ''this'', are we? After ''all'' we've been through...!}} | |||
:unfortunately i have to agree, it's a bummer that the "Sword" notion lost but can we please let it go already--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 16:58, December 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
Here ya go Zaqaree: http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/the17master/Riku_Pink_Hearts.png {{User:17master/Sign}} 17:33, December 21, 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{neumannz|time=18:45, December 21, 2010 (UTC)|notice=<big>WE'RE DONE WE'RE DONE WE'RE DONE</big>}} | |||
== Suggested Changes == | |||
Since the page is locked, two minor changes I'd like to suggest: | |||
:"is a form of one of Riku's Keyblades" - this seems a bit vague, and implies Riku wields more than one Keyblade, which AFAIK he doesn't (Roxas' Oblivion not withstanding). I think it should be reworded to "a form of Keyblade wielded by Riku" or words that effect. | |||
:Also, since it is considered a keyblade, I think it's worth noting it's design is dissimilar to other Keyblades, with no Keychain, handguards, or "teeth" on the blade. | |||
That is all. [[User:Drake Clawfang|Doreiku]][[User talk:Drake Clawfang|Kuroofangu]] 20:38, January 31, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:In ''Kingdom Hearts'', Leon calls the "Keyblade of heart", "Riku's Keyblade". Would you be amenable to changing it to "a form of Riku's main Keyblade", with "Riku's main Keyblade" linking to WttD?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 20:52, January 31, 2011 (UTC) | |||
::There's also him dual-wielding Destiny's Embrace in ''Kingdom Hearts II'' to consider. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 21:23, January 31, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Ah yes, I'd forgotten about those two. I think "a form of Keyblade wielded by Riku" would still work though, or "a form of Way To The Dawn wielded by Riku". [[User:Drake Clawfang|Doreiku]][[User talk:Drake Clawfang|Kuroofangu]] 22:40, January 31, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:Well, for Destiny's Embrace, we have always treated Sora's Keychains as if they are forms of his first, even though he can manifest them on his second Keyblade as well. I don't think there's any backing to say that only Riku's second Keyblade can become the Destiny's Embrace. | |||
:For the wording, we use "a Keychain for <nowiki>[[Kingdom Key|Sora's Keyblade]]</nowiki>" for all the others, so I'd feel most comfortable modifying that for this purpose. I think we all agree on "form" instead of Keychain, but we need to find something to replace "Sora's Keyblade" (I don't think we need to say "wielded by Riku", if we just use the possessive).{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 23:43, January 31, 2011 (UTC) | |||
::Frankly, I'd like to replace "Keychain" with "form" for ''all'' of its instances... | |||
::But for replacing "Sora's Keyblade", I think "Riku's main Keyblade" should be good enough. (Though it occurs to me that even though Aqua uses the Master Keeper, we aren't calling it a keychain or form of ''her'' Keyblade, so even though Leon calls the KoH "Riku's Keyblade", I don't think we should consider it as such, so "main" isn't needed. </run-on sentence>) --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 01:44, February 1, 2011 (UTC) | |||
:For Master Keeper, I worded it that way because it is treated as the game as if it still is Eraqus's Keyblade, and she is just carrying it. | |||
:I would agree that Leon is wrong. ''However'', if we say "Riku's Keyblade", it seems inaccurate to say that that refers to something other than the Keyblade of heart (in this case, the WttD), when that phrase is specifically used within the game to refer to the Koh.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 02:35, February 1, 2011 (UTC) | |||
So anything happening with this? [[User:Drake Clawfang|Doreiku]][[User talk:Drake Clawfang|Kuroofangu]] 08:42, February 3, 2011 (UTC) | |||
== New solution == | |||
Which should solve everything, really. | |||
"Keyblades are said to be man-made counterparts to Kingdom Hearts." | |||
Through Nomura, we know that the Soul Eater is considered the intermediary through which Riku obtained his Keyblade. It seems pretty straightforward, then, that the reason the Soul Eater has some Keyblade-only properties, but is clearly not a "true Keyblade", is that it is simply an unfinished Way to the Dawn, much like Riku's Keyblade of People's Hearts.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 00:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
:I'd say it's a different kind of incomplete, probably because they're two different types of Keyblades. (I say this even though we have no evidence that the Soul Eater can't lock/unlock things...) --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 02:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
::Oh soitenly, it's a different type. But the basic idea of "Why is Riku's Keyblade-like thing not have the trademark features of a Keyblade" would be "its incomplete" -- something we really should have guessed from the similar situation of the KoPH.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 03:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
:::Biggest difference being that the KoPH is missing the keychain, while Soul Eater is missing, well, everything that defines a keyblade (visually at least). Ok, that sounds good. The question is though where does leave Soul Eater's official label? Keyblade? Half-Keyblade? Incomplete Keyblade? Not-a-Keyblade (due to not being complete)?--{{User:ShadowsTwilight/Sig}} 03:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
::::DTN asked me to create this as a forum thread to receive wider comment, and you can see my suggestion [[Forum:Soul Eater: To be, or not to be a Keyblade because holy hell this plot is confusing|here]].{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:13, 20 September 2011 (UTC) | |||
== Forms == | |||
Shouldn't we add the Soul Eater Forms ([[:File:Dual Soul Eater.png|DBSE]] and [[:File:Soul Eater HT KHRECOM.png|HTSE]]) to the article? Since an adaptation to the template would look weird since we don't have a KH template and the Re:CoM template we have has a card for the image the best option I can think is a forms gallery like we have in characters.--{{User:Xabryn/Sig}}04:58, 14 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
:I don't see why not, the article mentions booth forms so they should be shown here. The problem with the KH template is that we don't have any item stats or description for the Soul Eater. --[[User:ShardofTruth|ShardofTruth]] 13:53, 14 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
::Okay I have added a forms gallery to the page, and about the KH Template I know we don't have stats or description it's neither one of Sora's Keyblade nor a party member weapon so unless it's stats were mentioned in the Ultimania, what I find unlikely, there is no way for us to make one which is what I was trying to say when I mentioned it would be weird to adapt the template for a form image.--{{User:Xabryn/Sig}}13:52, 15 April 2012 (UTC) | |||
==Soul Eater is a sword, not a Keyblade== | |||
https://www.khinsider.com/news/A-Look-Back-KINGDOM-HEARTS-Ultimania-Gallery-Comments-Part-1-15519 | |||
Here the proof "This isn't a Keyblade, but it is a sword that Riku uses in the first half [of the game]. I wanted to make a sword without a blade, and this is what came out after a lot of sketches. Like on the box art, I thought it was nice how it looks like a wing when he carries it on his back. Well, not that he carries it on his back in the game." Nomura literally say it is not a Keyblade, but a sword. To be honest is really dumb that this weapon was considered a Keyblade here, the whole point of Riku was that he wanted a Keyblade, but if the Soul Eater was already a Keyblade, all this would make absolutly no sense. Why want a Keyblade if you already have it?--[[Special:Contributions/93.41.38.64|93.41.38.64]] 10:53, 2 September 2019 (UTC) | |||
:That's from the KH1 Ultimania. In the KH2 Ultimania, cited on the page, he says it's a Keyblade. He probably designed it as sword first, but changed the idea when Riku got his Way to the Dawn. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 13:55, 2 September 2019 (UTC) | |||
::Ok, just ignore the fact that the WHOLE point of KH1 was Riku that wanted a Keyblade when he had the Soul Eater (so the whole point will be dumb), ignore the fact that in 358 the Soul Eater is literally classified as a sword even if there is the "Keyblade" category, and ignore it's design. I tried--[[Special:Contributions/93.41.38.64|93.41.38.64]] 14:29, 2 September 2019 (UTC) | |||
:::The Soul Eater article doesn’t even claim it to be a Keyblade, so I don’t get what you’re making a fuss about. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 16:06, 2 September 2019 (UTC) | |||
::::In the end of the page there is the KEYBLADE template, and in Riku's weapons template the Soul Eater is in the "Keyblade" section instead of "other" section. So, yhea, is stated, even if there is A LOT of sources that say the Soul Eater is not a Keyblade--[[Special:Contributions/93.41.38.64|93.41.38.64]] 19:55, 2 September 2019 (UTC) | |||
== Soul Eater being a sword and not a keyblade == | |||
Why do we list Soul eater as a keyblade for characters like Riku, Riku Replica and Data Riku? Especially for Dark and Data-Riku, since that is the only weapon they wield? I'm just confused. | |||
:Read above. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 22:20, 19 January 2020 (UTC) | |||
== Keyblade status (2024 edition) == | |||
I'm just putting notes from Discord here with the rest of the discussions for future reference, since this gets brought up a lot. In short, modern sources do not classify the Soul Eater as a true Keyblade. TSH confirmed this in the Memorial Ultimania and Character Files: ''It's called a sword, it doesn't appear on the pages showing all Keyblades, and Dark Riku does not have a "Keyblade used" box that other users do''. So, even though it is the developing form of Way to the Dawn, it does not qualify as a Keyblade for the purpose of navboxes, the [[list of Keyblade wielders]], and other logistical stuff. —<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman'; font-size:110%>[[User:Aid1043|<span style="color:#9932CC">Aid</span>]][[User talk:Aid1043|<span style="color:#9932CC">1043</span>]]</span> 01:20, 18 January 2024 (UTC) | |||