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{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}} | {{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}} | ||
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Each of these sub-sections will need to be varified, of course, by guidebook or Ultimania. The ''CoM'' guidebook, I know, at least lists the cards in each deck, the quantity, and the quantity of values, but for some reason, ''CoM'''s influence on the Wiki seems to have completely vanished, replaced by ''Re:CoM'', So this complicates things. I'm not sure of the contents of the Ultimania, as I've never read or seen a copy, but I'm sure we can get around this. | Each of these sub-sections will need to be varified, of course, by guidebook or Ultimania. The ''CoM'' guidebook, I know, at least lists the cards in each deck, the quantity, and the quantity of values, but for some reason, ''CoM'''s influence on the Wiki seems to have completely vanished, replaced by ''Re:CoM'', So this complicates things. I'm not sure of the contents of the Ultimania, as I've never read or seen a copy, but I'm sure we can get around this. | ||
Then this morning, I went through the painstaking process of completely revising the [[Zexion | Then this morning, I went through the painstaking process of completely revising the [[Game:Zexion]] article (even if it unfortunately credited me as an IP at the time), adding Enemy template and all, as much as I hate the complexity of that thing. But going through each of the boss articles, I realized how terribly these were written. Some strategies were just a bulleted list of attacks, for Pete's sake! Thus, I thought it might be a good idea to revise these articles, but I can't do this all by myself. I need your help with this. Aside from issues with missing stats or card deck information, the Zexion boss article is an example of a well-written boss article, a model anyone can use if they wish to attempt revising a boss article on their own. Boss articles should contain the following sections in this recommended and personally preferred order: | ||
*Game template. List all games the character is fought in. | *Game template. List all games the character is fought in. | ||
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*Youmay template. Link to the character article of the boss in question. | *Youmay template. Link to the character article of the boss in question. | ||
*Intro. Don't just say "So-and-so appears as a boss in this-and-this game.", provide a bit of a story to it, such as "Marluxia wishing to do away with Sora due to his actions in Castle Oblivion, he attacks the Keyblade master and engages him in a climatic battle." I'm not saying be the next Shakespeare almost as if we were redoing the character article in an intro, but one line is quite pathetic. I refer to how badly the Zexion boss article looked before I revised it when saying this, as I will many times as an example. | *Intro. Don't just say "So-and-so appears as a boss in this-and-this game.", provide a bit of a story to it, such as "Marluxia wishing to do away with Sora due to his actions in Castle Oblivion, he attacks the Keyblade master and engages him in a climatic battle." I'm not saying be the next Shakespeare almost as if we were redoing the character article in an intro, but one line is quite pathetic. I refer to how badly the Zexion boss article looked before I revised it when saying this, as I will many times as an example. | ||
*Enemy template. Fill in all necessary fields. If a character appears in two games, set up the template for those two games. Don't be lazy and only do half the work (an example being [[Lexaeus | *Enemy template. Fill in all necessary fields. If a character appears in two games, set up the template for those two games. Don't be lazy and only do half the work (an example being [[Game:Lexaeus]], the article only showing stats for ''CoM''). If you don't know a certain statistic, ask someone else (PM them on the IRC, contact a reliable staffer, or leave an inquiry on the boss article's talk page), or simply put the expansion template on the top of the article, stating what it is you're looking for, lables such as "Statistics" and even something lengthier like "Determine quantities of cards in Deck Statistics section" being acceptable. | ||
*Strategy. If a character appears in more than one game, write it as "Strategies". Game titles should be used in sub-headings. If multiple battles with different characters occur within a single game ([[Terra-Xehanort | *Strategy. If a character appears in more than one game, write it as "Strategies". Game titles should be used in sub-headings. If multiple battles with different characters occur within a single game ([[Game:Terra-Xehanort]]), that's when you can get into sub-sub-headings and such. Otherwise, each new game a character is fought in should be a new sub-heading. A bulleted list of attacks does not count as a strategy, and a well-written strategy will use terms such as "one must" instead of "you" and "the player". It will also describe methods of beating the character as well as list their attacks in a more article-like formatting than a bulleted list. A good example is the Zexion boss article, a bad example being [[Game:Riku Replica]]. | ||
*Deck Statistics. Only add this if a boss is fought in ''CoM''/''Re:CoM'' with the sub-sections mentioned above, all conditions I mentioned taken into account. | *Deck Statistics. Only add this if a boss is fought in ''CoM''/''Re:CoM'' with the sub-sections mentioned above, all conditions I mentioned taken into account. | ||
*Battle Quotes. Sub-sections according to games, no "Hee-yah" or "Muahahahaha!", just legitimate phrases like "Give me your best shot.", as mentioned in the MoS. I know a policy exists stating only seven quotes may be used, but that makes having the section irrelevant all together, and some articles having this and not others is quite inconsistent. While we could eliminate the section all together, it's quite useful for readers, since battle quotes irk a lot of gamers while playing. And if confusion arises over a quote, it's not that hard to just discuss it and find a reasonable resolution. | *Battle Quotes. Sub-sections according to games, no "Hee-yah" or "Muahahahaha!", just legitimate phrases like "Give me your best shot.", as mentioned in the MoS. I know a policy exists stating only seven quotes may be used, but that makes having the section irrelevant all together, and some articles having this and not others is quite inconsistent. While we could eliminate the section all together, it's quite useful for readers, since battle quotes irk a lot of gamers while playing. And if confusion arises over a quote, it's not that hard to just discuss it and find a reasonable resolution. | ||
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Rather than leave these articles to collect dust, I say we make them as good as we can before we allow them to do so. Let's not be lazy editors that just place a cleanup template atop an article in hopes that one day a guy with nothing better to do will revise it. I think with all I am that this should be one of the Wiki's next projects, and I hope you'll agree! I appreciate any help I receive, and hopefully this will be an edit-motivating group experience!}} | Rather than leave these articles to collect dust, I say we make them as good as we can before we allow them to do so. Let's not be lazy editors that just place a cleanup template atop an article in hopes that one day a guy with nothing better to do will revise it. I think with all I am that this should be one of the Wiki's next projects, and I hope you'll agree! I appreciate any help I receive, and hopefully this will be an edit-motivating group experience!}} | ||
==Discussion== | ==Discussion== | ||
I merely wish to clarify, as I don't think I made it apparent enough above, that this forum's subject refers to both Character and Enemy (Heartless, Nobodies, etc.) bosses (hence the title). - | I merely wish to clarify, as I don't think I made it apparent enough above, that this forum's subject refers to both Character and Enemy (Heartless, Nobodies, etc.) bosses (hence the title). - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 22:49, August 23, 2010 (UTC) | ||
::And yes, we are intended to discuss this. - | ::And yes, we are intended to discuss this. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 05:27, August 24, 2010 (UTC) | ||
{{LapisScarab|time=05:39, August 24, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=I actually brought up something similar on the Project Enemy:DESIGN page. I'm tired and lazy right now, so behold the power of copy and paste! | {{LapisScarab|time=05:39, August 24, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=I actually brought up something similar on the Project Enemy:DESIGN page. I'm tired and lazy right now, so behold the power of copy and paste! | ||
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Categorization - redundant. The Enemy template already handles all categorization. None is needed, unless we want to categorize bosses by what world they appear in. | Categorization - redundant. The Enemy template already handles all categorization. None is needed, unless we want to categorize bosses by what world they appear in. | ||
Videos - [[Trickmaster]] is the format I've been using. The table should be of minimum width (so no widths are specified, except by the video embedding itself), and centered. If there are more than two videos, they should be in separate rows by game. For a boss that appears more than once, each recurring time should be followed by the applicable roman numeral, as used in all the guides (unless the specific names differ). There should be a video for every boss battle, as well as by episode, so there should actually be four for CoM and Re:CoM bosses. Videos should be ordered by game, as done with the game template, then chronologically within (for BBS, assume T>V>A). Videos should show the complete battle. Days bosses should not have their own videos, as it is abusive of fair use - instead, link to the Mission article with the full-mission battle (excluding AntiRiku and AntiSaix, which are a special case). For games with more than one scenario (CoM and BBS), the scenario should be specified if necessary, as done at [[Vanitas | Videos - [[Trickmaster]] is the format I've been using. The table should be of minimum width (so no widths are specified, except by the video embedding itself), and centered. If there are more than two videos, they should be in separate rows by game. For a boss that appears more than once, each recurring time should be followed by the applicable roman numeral, as used in all the guides (unless the specific names differ). There should be a video for every boss battle, as well as by episode, so there should actually be four for CoM and Re:CoM bosses. Videos should be ordered by game, as done with the game template, then chronologically within (for BBS, assume T>V>A). Videos should show the complete battle. Days bosses should not have their own videos, as it is abusive of fair use - instead, link to the Mission article with the full-mission battle (excluding AntiRiku and AntiSaix, which are a special case). For games with more than one scenario (CoM and BBS), the scenario should be specified if necessary, as done at [[Game:Vanitas]]. | ||
Lexaeus | Game:Lexaeus missing stats - do we want the Absent Silhouettes and Replica Data to be covered on the same page? They are a different type of thing, and if the stats are there, then full info on the AS and RD should be, too. I'd personally prefer covering these on the main AS and RD pages. | ||
}} | }} | ||
{{EO|time=00:05, August 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=I don't recall Shard ever providing me with such scans. They'd be useless to me, anyways, as I have no way of reading Japanese. Keep in mind that this is intended to be a forum about starting a new project, not me asking for help or complaining about the Wiki. | {{EO|time=00:05, August 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=I don't recall Shard ever providing me with such scans. They'd be useless to me, anyways, as I have no way of reading Japanese. Keep in mind that this is intended to be a forum about starting a new project, not me asking for help or complaining about the Wiki. | ||
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Last comes Absent Silhouettes and Data Replicas. I feel they'd make the AS and RD pages ridiculously long. No need to do that, as the page should describe what an AS or DR is itself, and then link to the boss articles as they currently do. We need to simply expand the enemy template if we resort to that.}} | Last comes Absent Silhouettes and Data Replicas. I feel they'd make the AS and RD pages ridiculously long. No need to do that, as the page should describe what an AS or DR is itself, and then link to the boss articles as they currently do. We need to simply expand the enemy template if we resort to that.}} | ||
{{KrytenKoro|For strategies, I meant max two per fight, not max two per article. I have seen quite a few where the article suggests up to five different ways of approaching something, like [[Sephiroth | {{KrytenKoro|For strategies, I meant max two per fight, not max two per article. I have seen quite a few where the article suggests up to five different ways of approaching something, like [[Game:Sephiroth]]. I'm not talking separate passages, either - there should only be two ''contiguous'' strategies, that you can follow without having to sort out the page. The Game:Sephiroth page is hideously redundant and convoluted on many levels. | ||
For the ultimania - sorry, I thought he had. The link is on my talk page, I think. The stats are in order as in the template, but I had forgotten that the labels were still in Japanese, so someone who is fluent should probably attack those. | For the ultimania - sorry, I thought he had. The link is on my talk page, I think. The stats are in order as in the template, but I had forgotten that the labels were still in Japanese, so someone who is fluent should probably attack those. | ||
For battle quotes, Sephiroth | For battle quotes, Game:Sephiroth actually has a good example. I was thinking something like this: | ||
*'''Heartless Angel''': Sephiroth will shout "Descend, Heartless Angel!", then summon a halo of darkness over Sora that will reduce him to 1 HP and 0 MP once completed. The attack cannot be dodged, but Sora can interrupt the attack by damaging Sephiroth in any way. Sephiroth starts using this technique when reduced to about 30% health, and if interrupted, he will immediately use Stigma. | *'''Heartless Angel''': Sephiroth will shout "Descend, Heartless Angel!", then summon a halo of darkness over Sora that will reduce him to 1 HP and 0 MP once completed. The attack cannot be dodged, but Sora can interrupt the attack by damaging Sephiroth in any way. Sephiroth starts using this technique when reduced to about 30% health, and if interrupted, he will immediately use Stigma. | ||
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I wouldn't say that CoM's influence has vanished, the slight and card sections for example cover the differences. Most stats are still for CoM though, even if the images are from ReCoM. There should be a precise distinction I think.}} | I wouldn't say that CoM's influence has vanished, the slight and card sections for example cover the differences. Most stats are still for CoM though, even if the images are from ReCoM. There should be a precise distinction I think.}} | ||
{{EO|time=19:54, August 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=All right, please see [[Ansem, Seeker of Darkness | {{EO|time=19:54, August 25, 2010 (UTC)|text=All right, please see [[Game:Ansem, Seeker of Darkness]]. I recently added the deck values based on the scan ShardofTruth translated. I think we should continue discussing the Deck template on the IRC, Kryten, if you wouldn't mind. I tried centering the list of values as you see done on the music articles like [[Swim This Way]] so it would take up less room, but no luck. Interpreting what you said about strategies this way after you re-explained yourself, I couldn't agree more. | ||
In terms of battle quotes, I really would still like to see a section listing every quote, but I can live with what you just defined as what should be done. We can put this matter behind us. I actually find that the format you used would be better. | In terms of battle quotes, I really would still like to see a section listing every quote, but I can live with what you just defined as what should be done. We can put this matter behind us. I actually find that the format you used would be better. | ||
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At the moment, I'm struggling to download ShardofTruth's scans. That's why I had forgotten he showed them to me... it was a download link that wasn't cooperating for me, and for that, I apologize for the resulting confusion. Once we get these issues resolved, I'd really like to get started on this project attempt, maybe even make a project page for it if the green light is given.}} | At the moment, I'm struggling to download ShardofTruth's scans. That's why I had forgotten he showed them to me... it was a download link that wasn't cooperating for me, and for that, I apologize for the resulting confusion. Once we get these issues resolved, I'd really like to get started on this project attempt, maybe even make a project page for it if the green light is given.}} | ||
::Yes, I left this message as an IP. This was not a case of sockpuppeting. - | ::Yes, I left this message as an IP. This was not a case of sockpuppeting. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 00:18, August 26, 2010 (UTC) | ||
{{KrytenKoro|OH! Also, any videos used, we need to have permission from the video uploader. No ripping off of videos in the main articles. We'll need an official statement from whoever the videos belong to, either from them signing on a project page, or an archived scan of an email.}} | {{KrytenKoro|OH! Also, any videos used, we need to have permission from the video uploader. No ripping off of videos in the main articles. We'll need an official statement from whoever the videos belong to, either from them signing on a project page, or an archived scan of an email.}} | ||
{{EO|time=16:58, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Agreed. However, isn't it kind of difficullt to just spam a bunch of YouTube channels asking for videos, especially when these people won't respond? In the end, can we say that the project can be begun? If so, I'll create the project page based on what we've established here.}} | {{EO|time=16:58, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Agreed. However, isn't it kind of difficullt to just spam a bunch of YouTube channels asking for videos, especially when these people won't respond? In the end, can we say that the project can be begun? If so, I'll create the project page based on what we've established here.}} | ||
{{neumannz|time=17:47, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm a little confused as to how this isn't really a restatement of [[ | {{neumannz|time=17:47, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=I'm a little confused as to how this isn't really a restatement of [[KHWiki:Project Enemy/STRATEGY]]...}} | ||
{{EO|time=17:49, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Project Enemy seems to cover lesser beings like Shadows and Dusks. This is intended for bosses like Barbossa and Vanitas. If we can make this project page a "See Also" or subpage to Project:Enemy, that's fine, too.}} | {{EO|time=17:49, August 26, 2010 (UTC)|text=Project Enemy seems to cover lesser beings like Shadows and Dusks. This is intended for bosses like Barbossa and Vanitas. If we can make this project page a "See Also" or subpage to Project:Enemy, that's fine, too.}} | ||
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The HP, AP and EXP stats change greatly in ReCoM, the status and element effects are the same though. I've been thinking about a simple solutions these days, but nothing crossed my mind. At the moment there are three possibilities: | The HP, AP and EXP stats change greatly in ReCoM, the status and element effects are the same though. I've been thinking about a simple solutions these days, but nothing crossed my mind. At the moment there are three possibilities: | ||
*Overwrite the CoM stats completely. Because ReCoM is the superior version, CoM becomes obsolete, even if it's still buyable and playable for the GBA. This is how it's done for the FM versions at the moment (only the other way around). They are only stats after all. | *Overwrite the CoM stats completely. Because ReCoM is the superior version, CoM becomes obsolete, even if it's still buyable and playable for the GBA. This is how it's done for the FM versions at the moment (only the other way around). They are only stats after all. | ||
*Make references to the older/newer stats. It could be done like in the [[Guard Armor]] article, but because some enemies can be fought on different floors, this could be easily get out of hand (for Shadow there are 13 floors multiplied with 3 different stats makes 39 references). It can also be achieved by using backslashes or brackets in combination with the {{ | *Make references to the older/newer stats. It could be done like in the [[Guard Armor]] article, but because some enemies can be fought on different floors, this could be easily get out of hand (for Shadow there are 13 floors multiplied with 3 different stats makes 39 references). It can also be achieved by using backslashes or brackets in combination with the {{KHCoM}} and {{ReCoM}} template. | ||
*Make another tab or change the existing one for another set of stats. The most complex solution. | *Make another tab or change the existing one for another set of stats. The most complex solution. | ||
What do you think?}} | What do you think?}} | ||
{{EO|time=14:16, September 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=I personally like option I or II. However, we could just go into the template and write the CoM and Re:CoM stats in, like this: | {{EO|time=14:16, September 1, 2010 (UTC)|text=I personally like option I or II. However, we could just go into the template and write the CoM and Re:CoM stats in, like this: | ||
*HP: 1879{{ | *HP: 1879{{KHCoM}}<br>1900{{ReCoM}} | ||
Then again, were we to include both CoM and ReCoM stats, this would greatly complicate the Deck Statistics section, considering the decks are completely different between the two games, as well. This would just make the section incredibly long and redundant. While all of this is doable, I believe in terms of the Deck sections, CoM's existence will have to be ignored completely to favor ReCoM. This, in turn, would make using CoM stats in the template an inconsistency, something I'm personally against.}} | Then again, were we to include both CoM and ReCoM stats, this would greatly complicate the Deck Statistics section, considering the decks are completely different between the two games, as well. This would just make the section incredibly long and redundant. While all of this is doable, I believe in terms of the Deck sections, CoM's existence will have to be ignored completely to favor ReCoM. This, in turn, would make using CoM stats in the template an inconsistency, something I'm personally against.}} | ||