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{{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=03:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|sad=It's a shame that this discussion fell apart into the result here today. The results of this discussion were totally not the purpose of this forum, and I think I speak for most if not all on the wiki in expressing my disappointment for the actions taken today. | {{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=03:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|sad=It's a shame that this discussion fell apart into the result here today. The results of this discussion were totally not the purpose of this forum, and I think I speak for most if not all on the wiki in expressing my disappointment for the actions taken today. | ||
I'd like to first clear up the reason we even have this forum, a concern Shard expressed earlier. First is the policy ENX has brought up. The [[KHWiki:Staff | I'd like to first clear up the reason we even have this forum, a concern Shard expressed earlier. First is the policy ENX has brought up. The [[KHWiki:Staff policy|Staff Policy]] we drafted and implemented over the summer is unexpectedly being used today. I say unexpectedly because, while we drafted it with ENX, TNE, and Kryten in mind (check the logs, I'm pretty sure they were all mentioned), we, or at least I, can't say I truly expected all of them to return so quickly. What great joy it is to me that they '''are''' back, as it has been a joy to all on the wiki to see so many veteran users return to the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki! I bring up the policy, however, because I've been thinking about it's wording. It states: | ||
:''"If they return and want their rights back, they must undergo a two month probation period, where the user must show that they are active enough to hold their powers again."'' | :''"If they return and want their rights back, they must undergo a two month probation period, where the user must show that they are active enough to hold their powers again."'' | ||
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{{NinjaSheik|text=I've been keeping my eye on the forum since it was first started, but I was also thinking about what I wanted to say and wanting to see what others think of it... I'm sad to hear the ENX is leaving, but I can't deny the points that Xion-chan has made. This escalated much too quickly, and has become too person. I pretty much agree with KSM has to say. However, even if this didn't escalated the way it did, I wouldn't really agree to have ENX as an admin. I'm aware of his misbehavior and I wanted to observe his actions a bit before making a decision. But seeing this today did confirm my thoughts. I don't think appointing him as admin would be the right choice if isn't willingly to listen to other people's opinions without taking personal offense to it. I'm really sorry to see him go, though. :(}} | {{NinjaSheik|text=I've been keeping my eye on the forum since it was first started, but I was also thinking about what I wanted to say and wanting to see what others think of it... I'm sad to hear the ENX is leaving, but I can't deny the points that Xion-chan has made. This escalated much too quickly, and has become too person. I pretty much agree with KSM has to say. However, even if this didn't escalated the way it did, I wouldn't really agree to have ENX as an admin. I'm aware of his misbehavior and I wanted to observe his actions a bit before making a decision. But seeing this today did confirm my thoughts. I don't think appointing him as admin would be the right choice if isn't willingly to listen to other people's opinions without taking personal offense to it. I'm really sorry to see him go, though. :(}} | ||
{{ShardofTruth|time=13:42, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|talk=Wow, I read the whole thread and obviously I did not have a clue what this was all about. It's still sad to see ENX leaving again because I think he's a great editor.<br> | |||
I agree with the major opinion here that a mod/administrator should be someone that sets an positive example how to work here, while I also agree with Kryten that the provided tools could benefit everybody (especially true in my case since I hardly get involved in the social aspects of the wiki).<br> | |||
What I don't agree with is how ENX was deemed unfit for this position. If we have a policy (that we all agreed on) we should follow it, if we make exceptions this kind of a "dictator-like" move, and unfair for the person involved. So if you want to include voting, then the policy should be changed again.<br><br> | |||
We're all here because we love (or at least like) Kingdom Hearts but our backgrounds and reasons to edit here are different, so we have different opinions on many things and that's perfectly fine, as long as we reach some sort of middle ground. I was never me against them or us against the rest of the internet and I wish ENX had remembered that.}} | |||
{{ENX|time=14:26, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|hooded=Why do I feel like you are the only one with any sense right now, Shard? I wish to raise attention to some things I have said in an ongoing conversation with RikuTheBloody on my talk page; key points are '''bolded''': | |||
Do you really need them to edit? It isn't that serious. Is this the person I looked up too? Is KSM work on your TB's meaningless? {{User:Master Riku the Bloody/Sig1}} 17:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
::'''I'm not willing to stay here and be attacked or insulted. Administrator powers are not necessary, but it is upsetting to me to have met the policy's requirements, and, just because of who I am, I am being denied them. See ShardofTruth's message on the forum.''' And Kryten's first. '''I don't want to leave the Wiki, but I have no choice. The people here make my life all the more stressful, even though I love editing here. But how can I possibly come back after I let my childish anger get the better of me like that on the forum? I cannot. I don't take criticism well. I accept that. But it is infuriating to me that people refuse to follow a policy that has been in place, apparently, since almost two Decembers ago and finalized on a recent Roundtable. The hypocritical nature of this Wiki's community and the superiority complexes of each of its administrators (are they trying to tell me they are perfect angels who have never misbehaved before?) have forced my hand. I've been hurt too many times by the people on this Wiki to be able to take it anymore.''' Based on the harsh, cruel words of what was stated on the forum, '''I think it is best for everyone that I leave this Wiki behind''', regardless of your looking up to me or the wonderful talk bubbles KSM made. If everyone is against me, how can I even work here anymore? Would you want to stay here if you were in my position? - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 13:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
:No one is hating. If you still edit here, or even just come to the IRC, I'm sure everyone will be alright. Don't just leave just because of something someone says. Besides, you are a help to this wiki alone, without admin powers, or socializing. Did you even take the time out to read Xion's post? Correct your errors by fixing what people criticize you about. {{User:Master Riku the Bloody/Sig1}} 13:36, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
::Everyone is hating, and '''until they tell me that themselves, that they are not, I will believe they are. They need to apologize for sounding harsh and ask for changes in a polite, nicer way. If I were to come back, I would want my admin powers because I came back and met the policy's requirements; my main point on my last forum post was my rights were taken away because I was inactive, NOT because I misbehaved.''' Now, all of a sudden, people are trying to take everything wrong that I have ever done and use it against me. You cannot correct past mistakes because they have already happened. My issue with Xion's post and everyone's like it is they took months-old issues and then tried to use them against me to prevent the restoration of my "powers." '''I felt more betrayed by so-called "friends" such as you and Xion4ever than anything else, hence my anger and overreaction. Am I proud of how I acted? No. But the thing that they should settle on is "Ok, we'll give you the rights back, as per the policy. But if you misbehave and we receive complaints, as per Operation: Keychain, you're subject to having them taken away again." That would be fair, and I could work with that, monitoring behavior and anger levels as much as possible.''' Like I keep saying, '''I don't want to leave. I don't even want admin powers. I want respect. And I want everyone who ''does'' have admin powers to take a serious chill pill and come down from their pedestals of power on which they have placed themselves. Give someone admin rights, and they go from friendly everyday users to power-flaunting Wiki-dictators who only care what other staff members have to say. I want my opinion to count, and the fact that no one ever says "Yeah, he has a point" because they are too self-absorbed and because I do not have the status that someone like KrytenKoro does does ''not'' make me feel like wasting my time here anymore, no matter how much I enjoyed editing and "socializing" with other ''KH'' fans''' (but when has that ever happened, seriously?)... - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 14:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
I wish to emphasize everything stated by ShardofTruth in his most recent message, as well as the points that I bolded in my chat with RTB. I am really sorry for overreacting, everyone. I do not expect forgiveness. But I don't want this to be off the table, either. I would like to let bygones be bygones and '''move forward'''. I promise to try to "behave better," but the reasons ShardofTruth stated in his most recent message are the exact ones why I behaved the way I did on this forum. Depending on what goes on, I may decide to come back. Not that I am wanted or that I matter, but I love working here too much. Isn't that why we are all here? The main point about the admin stuff is it makes my job easier. That is all. And again I raise behavior stuff '''on both ends''' as a separate issue. If people fix things and I fix things, then I ''can'' be the positive role-model for the Wiki that people want me to be. I just need the chance to show it.}} | |||
This is just about the powers. Without the powers, you can still get along with everyone. Just try to come to the IRC. I don't see you there much. Just drop the powers. {{User:Master Riku the Bloody/Sig1}} 14:31, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{Pea14733|time=16:41, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|mrhserious= I don't see anyone hating you, ENX. I agree that they're two separate issues so let's just break them down: | |||
#Returning your rights by the policy. No one disagrees on this point and you did accordingly. So we should return you your rights. But... | |||
#Your behavior. Now this one is based on your resumed activity that you are kind of ill-suited to be an admin. I'm going to ask this again, have you read what Xion and others had to say? And no, those sample-incidents are pretty new and in fact, some are just days ago. Those are, if we're going by your words, the "complaints" you received while being a "retired '''admin'''" (that's according to the Staff page) and the signs that you are indeed ill-suited to be (or to resume being) an admin. If you are saying you need the chance, I'll say you've already used it up. You don't need to be an active admin to activate your role-model mode, or so I think. This does not mean that you are permanently banned from being an admin though. I'm pretty sure that if you behave well enough in the future, you will undoubtedly regain your rights. | |||
Putting that aside, I do respect you that you are a hardworking and dedicated editor. Oh and if you're looking for "socialization", most part of it happen on the IRC. Just come talk and relax.}} | |||
{{KrytenKoro|Initial disclaimer: I honestly hadn't realized that this policy would be affecting me, so it might be necessary to recuse myself and wait for Nezzy to step in. That being said: | |||
I strongly feel that all judgments of "worth as an editor", "who should apologize", "who deserves what" should be taken to our dispute resolution processes, or to the IRC. People seem to be arguing based on personal greivances, and that's not constructive.}} | |||
{{TheFifteenthMember|time={{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 18:29, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|default=Policies are never set in stone and they can be changed at any time, if the community decides. I would agree with Xion's suggestion of adding the clause "proving that you actually deserve your position back". | |||
Out of Kryten's "any competent user should have tools" and Xion's "staff member = role model" view, I feel more comfortable with the latter. We're a small community, so I think it's important to have a band of reliable, committed staff to set the standards for newcomers. Do I think that ENX is a suitable role model for new editors at the moment? Truthfully no, and I do not intend that to be harsh or demeaning. I hope that does not ruin your motivation; take it as a standing stone to work your way up. | |||
Lastly, I'd like to mention that from my own experiences, I find that the opinion of a regular user is just as valued to a staff member's when we're making a community decision. I do not see any dictatorship qualities, controlling behaviour or superiority coming from any of the current staff.}} | |||
According to both his user page and comments on here, ENX is leaving the Wiki. Does this even need to be discussed anymore? If we'd like to discuss our staff policy, I say we move that discussion to a new forum or at least create a new heading on this one. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 18:41, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
:Why move it? Someone can just lock it, the discussion is over with. {{User:Master Riku the Bloody/Sig1}} 18:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
::Yes, I believe the addition to the policy should be discussed. I don't think it will take long to reach a consensus on it, so I think discussing here under a new section is okay, unless someone wants to create another thread? {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 19:12, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
:I can create it. (It'll be my first time.) {{User:Master Riku the Bloody/Sig1}} 19:14, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{ENX|time=19:15, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|text=If you look at my user page, Xion, and you actually read my most recent comments, I am staying, for the time being, at least. I'm fine with waiting a few more months, but I do agree the policy ''does'' need to be changed/updated to discuss all of the hidden elements of it, since what we currently state is rather concrete, as well as the only reason why this escalated the way it did. We had a policy. The way it was written, it wasn't followed. Hence I viewed this situation exactly as ShardofTruth stated one in my position would. We also need to outline what we actually expect from a "model" staff member, as you can't say, "Try again and act differently" without saying what requirements need to be met. Because I personally do not see where I have been out of line, save for the specific instances that have already been listed here, which are no longer relevant. People disagree with each other and argue, etc., because we all have different backgrounds and opinions. That is healthy for a Wiki and expected. But this "he said-she said" banter needs to stop, and as Kryten keeps stating, behavioral issues for '''all''' Wikians is a '''separate issue''' that should not be discussed here. I am '''not''' saying it does not need to be discussed at all. With the request that this Wiki do as KeybladeSpyMaster suggested, and try to understand and cope with the fact that I am an OCD sufferer, I will return to the ''KH'' Wiki. I ask for the forgiveness I know I don't deserve, and I also list the traits/symptoms typical of someone with my disorder for those who are interested/curious: | |||
*'''Alienation''' - The act of cutting off or interfering with an individual's relationships with others. | |||
*'''"Always" and "Never" Statements''' - "Always" and "Never" Statements are declarations containing the words "always" or "never". They are commonly used but rarely true. | |||
*'''Anger''' - People who suffer from personality disorders often feel a sense of unresolved anger and a heightened or exaggerated perception that they have been wronged, invalidated, neglected or abused. | |||
*'''Avoidance''' - The practice of withdrawing from relationships with other people as a defensive measure to reduce the risk of rejection, accountability, criticism or exposure. | |||
*'''Blaming''' - The practice of identifying a person or people responsible for creating a problem, rather than identifying ways of dealing with the problem. | |||
*'''Catastrophizing''' - The habit of automatically assuming a "worst case scenario" and inappropriately characterizing minor or moderate problems or issues as catastrophic events. | |||
*'''Circular Conversations''' - Arguments which go on almost endlessly, repeating the same patterns with no resolution. | |||
*'''Denial''' - Believing or imagining that some painful or traumatic circumstance, event or memory does not exist or did not happen. | |||
*'''Depression''' - People who suffer from personality disorders are often also diagnosed with symptoms of depression. | |||
*'''Sense of Entitlement''' - An unrealistic, unmerited or inappropriate expectation of favorable living conditions and favorable treatment at the hands of others. | |||
*'''Hoarding''' - Accumulating items to an extent that it becomes detrimental to quality of lifestyle, comfort, security or hygiene. | |||
*'''Hysteria''' - An inappropriate over-reaction to bad news or disappointments, which diverts attention away from the real problem and towards the person who is having the reaction. | |||
*'''Manipulation''' - The practice of steering an individual into a desired behavior for the purpose of achieving a hidden personal goal. | |||
*'''Mood Swings''' - Unpredictable, rapid, dramatic emotional cycles which cannot be readily explained by changes in external circumstances. | |||
*'''No-Win Scenarios''' - When you are manipulated into choosing between two bad options | |||
*'''Objectification''' - The practice of treating a person or a group of people like an object. | |||
*'''Panic Attacks''' - Short intense episodes of fear or anxiety, often accompanied by physical symptoms, such as hyperventilating, shaking, sweating and chills. | |||
*'''Passive-Aggressive Behavior''' - Expressing negative feelings in an unassertive, passive way. | |||
*'''Perfectionism''' - The maladaptive practice of holding oneself or others to an unrealistic, unattainable or unsustainable standard of organization, order, or accomplishment in one particular area of living, while sometimes neglecting common standards of organization, order or accomplishment in other areas of living. | |||
*'''Projection''' - The act of attributing one's own feelings or traits to another person and imagining or believing that the other person has those same feelings or traits. | |||
*'''Proxy Recruitment''' - A way of controlling or abusing another person by manipulating other people into unwittingly backing “doing the dirty work” | |||
*'''Push-Pull''' - A chronic pattern of sabotaging and re-establishing closeness in a relationship without appropriate cause or reason. | |||
*'''Ranking and Comparing''' - Drawing unnecessary and inappropriate comparisons between individuals or groups. | |||
*'''Selective Memory and Selective Amnesia''' - The use of memory, or a lack of memory, which is selective to the point of reinforcing a bias, belief or desired outcome. | |||
*'''Sabotage''' - The spontaneous disruption of calm or status quo in order to serve a personal interest, provoke a conflict or draw attention. | |||
*'''Selective Competence''' - Demonstrating different levels of intelligence, memory, resourcefulness, strength or competence depending on the situation or environment. | |||
*'''Splitting''' - The practice of regarding people and situations as either completely "good" or completely "bad". | |||
*'''Thought Policing''' - A process of interrogation or attempt to control another individual's thoughts or feelings. | |||
*'''Triggering''' -Small, insignificant or minor actions, statements or events that produce a dramatic or inappropriate response. | |||
*'''Tunnel Vision''' - A tendency to focus on a single concern, while neglecting or ignoring other important priorities. | |||
Sounds a lot like me, no? Justifies (not that it is justifiable) a lot of what went down with me and between myself and others here, no? These symptoms are not even ''the half'' of the hell that goes on for me every day in my life and in my head and heart. And yet, I still come to this Wiki every day to write about my favorite video game series, ''Kingdom Hearts'' because it is one of the few things that, with my OCD, still makes me happy and I am able to enjoy. Especially when I can share my knowledge and enjoyment with other ''KH'' fans. No Wiki is as special to me as this one, and no Wiki community is as special to me as this one's, either. I know, because after my announcement that I was forever quitting the Wiki yesterday, one I made out of anger, anxiety, and in haste, I tried editing on other Wikis and found I did not enjoy working on a single one as much as I did on this one. | |||
With those symptoms and such listed, I promise the Wiki that I will do the best I can to keep them under control. I will show that I can be a model user to the best of my ability, and we can try the administrator thing again in another couple months, hopefully after the staff policy (which I believe had already been finalized, hence all my confusion and upsetness...) is finalized. I hope you all give me a second (third, fourth, fifth?) chance. Because I enjoy working here with all of you, even though it does not seem like it most of the time. I hope that you all will understand where I am coming from with my OCD and take that into account in the future when dealing with me or any issues that may rise up concerning me in the future. Again, I humbly apologize to you all. Xion4ever, KrytenKoro, Neumannz, NinjaSheik, ShardofTruth, RikuTheBloody, TheFifteenthMember, Pea, The Silent Hero, all of you. I am truly, very sorry. I only hope that I can prove this to you.}} | |||
:ENX did you get my invitation? {{User:Byzantinefire/Sig}} 19:27, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{TheFifteenthMember|time={{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 19:36, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|confused=I respect you for '''a)''' having the bravery to talk openly about your condition and '''b)''' being persistent in your efforts. As many people here said, this forum is not the end of the line. Using Xion's words above, you've talked the talk and now it's time to walk the walk. My personal request is be more calm and level-headed and try not to over-react to situations. I understand that is more difficult for you because of your OCD but to be an admin, you need to show you can keep your composure stable. Good luck :)}} | |||
{{ENX|time=19:40, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|happy=Thank you. Trust me, what's listed above isn't even the half of this OCD crap :P Yes, it is hard to do as you ask with the symptoms listed above, but of course I will try my best! Thank you once again for the good-luck wish and kind words :) You, too, have my respect :)}} | |||
I won't be able to properly construct a comment until later-sneaking on phone during class right now- but one thing that definitely needs to be taken care of now is the hatred/complaints you have against other users. Apologize and say thank you all you want, but I know those feelings are still there. The only way they won't be there is if ''you and the users you have complaints with'' talk it out. You'd be surprised how much easier it is to live/edit/be somewhere where you don't have to hide how you feel/everyone knows everyone is being upfront and honest- they have each other's back. That's not only critical for the staff, but for the Wiki in general. If this needs to happen on talk pages/the IRC, so be it. A full response will be given later tonight. {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 20:08, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
::That comment "Apologize and thank others as much as you want, but..." sounds very antagonistic and unnecessary to me. It's as if you're trying to egg me on or something...I know I have complained to you before about certain things in our IRC chats, as a friend of mine, but still, that was just in-the-moment frustration that just happens to pop up over and over again because of my OCD, lack of ability to communicate with said people, et cetera. Believe what you wish, but I do '''not''' have hatred for '''ANY''' member of this Wiki's community. Do I wish things would go my way sometimes? Yes. But that is human, and exaggerated, as well, because of my mental condition. And you cannot blame me for that, no matter how many times you tell me to "Walk the walk while you talk the talk." I would love to be somewhere where I knew people supported me and had my back. That's how I felt in the Wiki's "old days" when I first joined, before SEIWA and everything when we had people like Xiggie and Yermom editing here. I'd love to have that feeling again. I miss that more than the ability to delete articles and images...The point, Xion, is this is not just about me as you keep trying to make it seem. Yes, I know a large part of it has to do with how I choose to behave and react in certain situations. You don't need to keep stating it over and over again, okay? I've understood it by now, believe me. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 20:21, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
:I'm glad you're coming back to us. I hope we can talk more. {{User:Master Riku the Bloody/Sig1}} 20:24, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
::I'm glad as well, my friend :) We can talk any time, assuming I'm free :P All it takes is an IRC invite! - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 20:28, 11 February 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{TheSilentHero|time=20:37, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|ike=I just wanted to say that I appreciate how you open up about your OCD. I know it's hard to talk about such things with people you don't really know that well. I will keep it in mind when talking to you, but you need to work on it too. If you try to apply for admin in a couple of months, I will reconsider.}} | |||
{{ENX|time=20:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|happy=Thanks, TheSilentHero! This Wiki has always been like a second family to me, so I trust quite a lot of you, and of course I promise to try my hardest keeping things under control to the best of my ability. We will try the administrator thing again in a couple months :) For now, I'm happy just editing and being a part of the community.}} | |||
{{neumannz|time=23:55, 11 February 2015 (UTC)|text=@Kryten: Well, the Heartless Manufactory has been idle for the longest time... | |||
And yes, I am willing to revisit this issue down the road. | |||
It's unfortunate that we don't have a way to divorce the Admin Tools of Convenience and Maintenance™ from the role of staff member and what it implies, it would have made this much simpler if we did. In the meantime, we will keep working as a wiki to move forward with how we work together and communicate, and before I sound like more of a posturing asshole, I'll just say that you guys know where to find me if anyone wants to talk/chat/chill/shoot the breeze/chew the fa—''*shot*''}} | |||
{{ENX|time=01:37, 12 February 2015 (UTC)|text=I don't mean to sound cheesy here, but I feel like this forum has actually brought me closer to the Wiki and its community. Just like in a relationship with someone you love, there will be good times and bad times. People fight and argue, and sometimes things are said that can never be unsaid or that hurt or separate. Yet still, it takes strength and commitment to see things through. In the end, we are made stronger for it. Call me crazy, but I'm actually happy with the way things have turned out. I feel like I have emerged from this experience a wiser, stronger editor and person.}} | |||