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Forum:Signature policy: Difference between revisions
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{{Forumheader|The World that Never was}} | {{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}} | ||
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{{DTN|time=02:20, December 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=As I have discovered from reviewing the results and forum-condemned brackets of the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki's "The Keyblade War" tournament, I am noticing a difficulty in checking signatures to make sure they are non-anon (by signature), as well as with reading the votes and signatures. Many signatures are extremely elaborate, with flashing colors and graphics, use incredibly large images that actually force the line of text to be larger, which looks terrible and breaks continuity in writing/conversation, and/or does not display the name of the user directly or at all, instead forcing the reader to leave the page in order to see who the user is. | {{DTN|time=02:20, December 12, 2010 (UTC)|text=As I have discovered from reviewing the results and forum-condemned brackets of the ''Kingdom Hearts'' Wiki's "The Keyblade War" tournament, I am noticing a difficulty in checking signatures to make sure they are non-anon (by signature), as well as with reading the votes and signatures. Many signatures are extremely elaborate, with flashing colors and graphics, use incredibly large images that actually force the line of text to be larger, which looks terrible and breaks continuity in writing/conversation, and/or does not display the name of the user directly or at all, instead forcing the reader to leave the page in order to see who the user is. | ||
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{{EO|time=01:07, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=I agree with Kryten's standpoint on things. Some of us use the "option" feature on our signatures. The mouseover will remove any uncertainty as to who's who, and as long as your main username using the standard alphabet ("A,B,C,D...") is within the list of possible choices, I don't see how there's anything wrong with doing this. | {{EO|time=01:07, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|hooded=I agree with Kryten's standpoint on things. Some of us use the "option" feature on our signatures. The mouseover will remove any uncertainty as to who's who, and as long as your main username using the standard alphabet ("A,B,C,D...") is within the list of possible choices, I don't see how there's anything wrong with doing this. | ||
In terms of image sizes - I've seen Wikis that don't allow images, and I've seen them with size limitations. I think it all just depends on the image you're using. An image like [[File: | In terms of image sizes - I've seen Wikis that don't allow images, and I've seen them with size limitations. I think it all just depends on the image you're using. An image like [[File:Aqua D-Link KHBBS.png|90px]] is practically unreadable at a smaller size than 90px. Same for [[File:Aqua Sprite KHBBS.png|50px]], which is hardly visible or idtentifiable like the user wants as the images's subject at a size smaller than 50px. Keyblade images are popular in signatures and are only visible at at least 30-35px. Character renders are very hard to fit into signatures, and should not be used AT ALL, since no matter how you size them, they're still a nuisance in things like the Keyblade War or Mirage Arena, taking up too much space. The point I'm trying to make is that people use the images to decorate their signatures. They're just empty and extra space if you can't see them. That's why, for the sake of the community, we should create different pixel limits for each image type (Keyblades, D-Link Images, etc) rather than one applicable for all.}} | ||
{{DTN|time=01:38, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|text=...ENX, you just missed the ''entire point'' of image restrictions. | {{DTN|time=01:38, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|text=...ENX, you just missed the ''entire point'' of image restrictions. | ||
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Similarly, images are optional in a signature, so this is like a restriction on them that only applies ''if'' you choose to use them.}} | Similarly, images are optional in a signature, so this is like a restriction on them that only applies ''if'' you choose to use them.}} | ||
The problem I have with that argument is that the idea that the policy should allow for users to choose the pictures they want kind of negates the point of having a policy in the first place. Not that we can't be more lax than x15px in height. After all, x20px is still small enough to fit on a single line with no trouble whatsoever. And I don't think [[File: | The problem I have with that argument is that the idea that the policy should allow for users to choose the pictures they want kind of negates the point of having a policy in the first place. Not that we can't be more lax than x15px in height. After all, x20px is still small enough to fit on a single line with no trouble whatsoever. And I don't think [[File:Aqua D-Link KHBBS.png|x20px]] and [[File:Aqua Sprite KHBBS.png|x20px]] are too unrecognizable. --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 01:36, December 16, 2010 (UTC) | ||
{{EO|time=01:59, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|annoyed=It seems to me that now we're just making policies for the sake of making them. The issue was brought about because of something as stupid and irrelevant as the Keyblade War. Signatures and the images in them have little to no effect on a talk page, especially since 3/4 of us use talk bubbles anyways, and those of us that don't use talk bubbles 24/7 have signatures that fit the requirements of this little policy you all are trying to create. The only time where this could be a problem would be in another Keyblade War-like situation, the Mirage Arena, which is COMPLETELY FOR FUN and has NO EFFECT on Mainspace. Hence it should NOT be a problem. I don't see why we can't be more leniant and just say "Fine. We can't expect you all to obey." Warning/banning someone because they fail to abide by a signature policy (which it is inevitible that this will be the case eventually) is sort of lame in the grand scheme of things in the long, sad history of things to be warned/banned for. The fact that three quarters of a policy is based on ONE PERSON's OPINION rather than a majority of the community (which I really don't see how their input matters, sometimes) really makes it not worth having. A worthwhile policy is one that the COMMUNITY feels should be enacted. Community support is saying "Yeah, I notice that too. We should develop this, and here's how I think how...". Saying "I approve of this one person's idea, let's do it" is NOT getting the community support needed for a policy. It's simply saying "My opinion doesn't matter. May as well just follow the crowd." | {{EO|time=01:59, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|annoyed=It seems to me that now we're just making policies for the sake of making them. The issue was brought about because of something as stupid and irrelevant as the Keyblade War. Signatures and the images in them have little to no effect on a talk page, especially since 3/4 of us use talk bubbles anyways, and those of us that don't use talk bubbles 24/7 have signatures that fit the requirements of this little policy you all are trying to create. The only time where this could be a problem would be in another Keyblade War-like situation, the Mirage Arena, which is COMPLETELY FOR FUN and has NO EFFECT on Mainspace. Hence it should NOT be a problem. I don't see why we can't be more leniant and just say "Fine. We can't expect you all to obey." Warning/banning someone because they fail to abide by a signature policy (which it is inevitible that this will be the case eventually) is sort of lame in the grand scheme of things in the long, sad history of things to be warned/banned for. The fact that three quarters of a policy is based on ONE PERSON's OPINION rather than a majority of the community (which I really don't see how their input matters, sometimes) really makes it not worth having. A worthwhile policy is one that the COMMUNITY feels should be enacted. Community support is saying "Yeah, I notice that too. We should develop this, and here's how I think how...". Saying "I approve of this one person's idea, let's do it" is NOT getting the community support needed for a policy. It's simply saying "My opinion doesn't matter. May as well just follow the crowd." | ||
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{{Maggosh|nathan=...I'll have to go with trois.}} | {{Maggosh|nathan=...I'll have to go with trois.}} | ||
{{EO|time=21:43, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|text=Always love how TNE states exactly what I'm thinking, granted it's in a more laid-back way. I side with her 100%}} | {{EO|time=21:43, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|text=Always love how TNE states exactly what I'm thinking, granted it's in a more laid-back way. I side with her 100%}} | ||
{{TNE|time=21:32, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|noel=To Soxra : I understand where you are coming from. The point is, most of us, if not all, prefer our images small. I have no problem with images. If we were to incorporate the image height thing into our KHW image policy, so be it. I'm fine with it. I am ''NOT'', however, fine with the changes to a sig by creating rules which are bound to contravene what the person is best. And ''yes'', to the naked eye, 15px Aqua is not recognisable.}} | |||
{{Soxra|roxas=Then I semi-agree with you. I think that there should be some form of the person's name in the signature, though (so putting [[User:Soxra|ASDS]][[User_talk:Soxra|FADF]] as my signature would not be okay). And though I do like timestamps, I can live without them.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=9:51pm, December 16, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
{{Maggosh|nathan=But you CAN hover your cursor over the link and see where it leads, so I don't see a problem with that.}} | |||
{{TNE|time=21:55, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|noel=To Soxra : TBH, I'm not sure about the timestamps... They were made obligatory last year, on my return from National Service. Prior to that, I didn't use the five tildes in my talkbox, and neither did anyone use it in his sig. But now I do it as a force of habit. I'm on the fence where this is concerned... I do understand, though, why we need those : it's a sort of record for any archive which has taken place : it'd be difficult to check the page history with Oasis as is.}} | |||
{{Soxra|ienzo=GAH, EDIT CONFLICTS. [/rage] | |||
Yes, Maggosh, but it gets a bit cumbersome when you have to do that every time you want to see someone's name. You also can't do it on an iPod/Mobile Phone. | |||
I actually wasn't aware they're obligatory. Many people don't use them, particularly in talk bubbles (but often in signatures, too, I'm finding). The thing about them is that it means you don't have to go to the history to see how old a forum topic or article talk subsection is.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=9:58pm, December 16, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
{{Chitalian8|time=22:03, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|hane= To Soxra: On an iPod, you can hold down the link, and then it displays the link.}} | |||
{{Maggosh|nathan=And really, who would edit the wiki on a cellphone?}} | |||
{{Soxra|ienzo=Good point, Chitalian, Android does that too. | |||
Maggosh, I have unlimited data and nothing better to do while waiting at the train. I got a smartphone for a reason. =P|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=10:08pm, December 16, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
{{KrytenKoro|emotion=hungry|Idea! | |||
Is there anyone here using their full legal name as their user account? | |||
... | |||
... | |||
Didn't think so. | |||
So, how do we recognize each other? By the name we give to our actions. Well, that's pretty much what a personalized signature is, right? As long as someone isn't changing their signature fifty times over the course of one discussion, we can keep in our head, "Okay, person A says this, this, and then this." | |||
That's the point of signatures, after all - just to provide accountability to who is saying what, and to prevent the sockpuppeting nonsense. Being able to access the person's account is really irrelevant to the point of the signature - there's nothing on their user page that would help the discussion to end responsibly ('cause it would require that we be using ad hominem attacks for that to be useful, see?), and it's not like we sign the main articles when we edit them - if you're checking the edit history to see who's editing what (if you for some reason need to say "you edited something while we were still discussing it, blah blah blah!"), then you can just as easily check the talk page history. | |||
Then, the issue of what text you're allowed to have... | |||
...honestly, we don't have any rules that your user account must contain your legal name in it. It's a bit of hyperbole, but I think it's the same principle here. | |||
Basically, as long as you can consistently recognize that what one person says is coming from one person, that person, then the signature has done it's full job. Everything else is decoration. | |||
''As regards that decoration'', I reiterate that putting images in signatures makes life hell for the people who have to clean up when the images are renamed or deleted, and that people should damn sure put any sig-images within a template, especially since the images wouldn't show up on other wikis anyway. | |||
Also, for the image height - seriously, it's disruptive to have huge images. From pure functional and aesthetic reasons, they need to be less than 2x the height of the text.}} | |||
{{neumannz|time=23:30, December 16, 2010 (UTC)|text=TNE, while I can appreciate the need for people to express themselves creatively and then spread that expression around like a completely inappropriate (or too appropriate, one might say) metaphor, not having a policy of some kind would be irresponsible. Freedom of speech is great and all, but you'll still be arrested for indecent exposure if you go dancing on a street conrner naked. Admittedly, that is an extreme example for an argument regarding SINGATURES ON AN EFFING WIKI, but the point is still there. Rules stave off the threat of anarchy, even on a website about video games. | |||
And if one is not creative enough to work in under 20 to 40 pixels of height, well, then I'm disappointed.}} | |||
{{DTN|time=00:13, December 17, 2010 (UTC)|text=To expand on what Neumannz has already stated, most of those are already in effect; most users use timestamps and link to some page in their userspace. Obviously, we are going to strongly consider modifying the rule about display of the username, but the images is the big deal. | |||
Images, images, images. I think you might need to go view the images up at the top again to refresh your memory of just how badly they can parse the text margin, and how distracting they are in conversation on the wiki. Also, whenever I have to fix a piece of formatting or a discussion, you can bet that it usually has to do with a) missing span code or b) an image so large it is actually ''pushing down other messages''. | |||
Saying that everyone is allowed freedom in whatever expression they choose in their signature allowed the extremes--for example, signatures that are directly disrespectful to other users, use extremely profanity for a ''Kingdom Hearts'' site, or have obnoxiously large images, say around 1000000px. There are a million and some odd more things that you are allowing when you just say that anything goes. And that's the reason we are bringing this up now--the signatures have gotten to this point of being unmanageable and ridiculous. | |||
That's what you are saying, TNE--that we should allow these kind of extremes so that people don't have to '''''ever so slightly''''' modify their signatures. Also, to say that your ''right to have a signature with a big picture on a silly wiki about a children's video game series'' is the only thing you have left is an absolutely ridiculous example of litotes. I mean not to offend you at all, but... this just seems really insane to me to be suggested. My apologies. | |||
... | |||
Also, apparently 17-20 pixels is a bit more correct than 15. I'm all for whatever size is the maximum height of pixels that does not raise a line of text.}} | |||
{{Soxra|hood=[http://img51.imageshack.us/img51/9528/imgheighta.png]|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=1:54am, December 17, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
== Revised Policy == | |||
<b> | |||
*All signatures must link to a page in the posting user's userspace, preferably their user page or talk page. | |||
*Stylizing your signature with colors and fonts is absolutely fine, and even encouraged, but all special text must have the codes closed with <nowiki></span></nowiki> or <nowiki></font></nowiki>. | |||
*All signatures must be followed by or include a timestamp in some form. | |||
*''ALL IMAGES MUST BE NO MORE THAN x17px, TO PREVENT AFFECTING THE LINE'S HEIGHT.'' | |||
**All personal images used must be linked from Photobucket or another image-sharing site; all images being hosted on the wiki are fine to use ''if sized properly''. | |||
**If you are you going to use an image in your signature, ''it must be transcluded through a template.''</b> | |||
=== Approval/Disapproval === | |||
{{DTN|time=21:23, December 17, 2010 (UTC)|text=A simple "yay" or "nay" is all we need. I've taken in all of the discussion and its feedback into revising this, and I think this should work fine. If I missed your contribution to discussion and/or you still feel something needs to be added/fixed/removed, please mention it below. | |||
Anyway, yay, I'm all for this.}} | |||
{{KrytenKoro|<s>Nay. I can't support the policy unless it requires any image-calls to be done within templates (our images or not).</s>}} | |||
{{DTN|time=21:37, December 17, 2010 (UTC)|text=Whoops, missed that bit. Added. | |||
Still yay.}} | |||
{{Soxra|roxas=Yay, this policy be the broth of me own stubby shillelagh. | |||
''PS: Does this include timestamps on talk templates, too, or is this no derivative of talk bubbles at all?''|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=10:54pm, December 17, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
{{KrytenKoro|emotion=murder|Yay.}} | |||
{{SilverCrono|time=22:58, December 17, 2010 (UTC)|text=Yay.}} | |||
{{Keyblade0|time=23:07, December 17, 2010 (UTC)|text=Nay. Just let people express themselves. Besides, who ''cares'' about changing the line's height? It's not like that extra bit of height would ruin a page.}} | |||
{{Soxra|ienzo=I have an addendum (didn't see a section for that outside the Approval/Disapproval). All tags inside the signature should be closed in the signature to prevent [http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/index.php?title=Forum:The_Keyblade_War_-_Semifinals&oldid=447097#Battle_Observatory_2 this]. | |||
''PS: Keyblade0, I even hate when the references (you know, [1], [2] and so on) adjust the line height. =P''|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=2:22am, December 18, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
{{DTN|time=09:00, December 18, 2010 (UTC)|text=Soxra: Added, I think it's such a slight and needed change nobody will change their "yay" to "Nay". | |||
Also, still yay.}} | |||
{{ErryTalk|time=12:53, December 18, 2010 (UTC)|eziotext=Yay for me.}} | |||
{{Chitalian8|time=14:07, December 18, 2010 (UTC)|text= Yay.}} | |||
{{SilverCrono|text=Just a quick question. Does this -->{{SC/Sig}} work for the policy?}} | |||
{{Soxra|ienzo=@DTN: Thanks. | |||
@Crono: The image is 1px too high (18). Other than that, yes.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=7:26pm, December 18, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
{{Maggosh|nathan=OH MY GAWD, ONE PIXEL! PANIC! PANIC!!!1one! | |||
Yay, just because I'm sticking with my stock signature and won't trouble myself with making it look pretty<!---like it's some sort of doll...--->.}} | |||
{{SilverCrono|time=20:10, December 18, 2010 (UTC)|text=<s>Soxra, not to be defensive or anything, but is it that serious? Like you said, it's only one pixel, and it didn't seem to change anything in the text... I might have missed this before, but that seems kinda petty to me. Not to mention I don't want to have to do all that editing again to make it one pixel lower >.<</s> | |||
HAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK CO*shot* | |||
Fix'd.}} | |||
{{neumannz|time=00:45, December 19, 2010 (UTC)|text=I was going to suggest an addendum for sigs to be placed ''in'' the userspace, but I guess I'll survive. | |||
So, yay. | |||
Once this is passed, we should somewhere include directions on using the auto-signature to transclude instead of copying the signature over, which would go against Kryten's addendum if there were pictures.}} | |||
{{The Inexistent|peace='''Yay. @DTN, we know that your vote is yay, you don't have to say it every time you comment.'''}} | |||
{{Soxra|roxas=@Maggosh: If we allow one, then why not one more than one? And one more than one more than one? And one more than........ you get the idea? There has to be a cutoff point. | |||
@Neumannz: I don't mind putting up a little tutorial in my userspace. Or were you thinking more along the lines of an actual Help directory for it?|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=3:10am, December 19, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
Either would be helpful, though it would probably just need a subsection on the New User's Guide than a full Help page. --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 03:42, December 19, 2010 (UTC) | |||
:We should make a section on the sitenotice or a banner on the front page advertising this forum and the new policy, at least for a while. We want maximum attention. --{{SilverCrono/Sig}} 03:48, December 19, 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{ICR|time=05:24, December 19, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=Yay. The signatures should really fit with the text to make the text more organized and easier to read.}} | |||
{{Maggosh|flint=I'm just sayin' you should be freaking out over one lousy pixel. ONE. LOUSY. PIXEL. Not TWO pixels, not FIVE pixels, just. One. Pixel.}} | |||
{{Soxra|ienzo=Are we allowing use of <nowiki><big></nowiki>? Or should font sizes be limited for the same reason as images?|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=7:50pm, December 20, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
Should be a common sense thing. If the signature exceeds a certain height, for whatever reason, then it disrupts the lines. --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 20:03, December 20, 2010 (UTC) | |||
{{LapisScarab|time=02:47, December 23, 2010 (UTC)|skinny=Yay, there's got to be rules. You can still express yourself, you've just got to get creative.}} | |||
===Final Result=== | |||
{{DTN|time=05:15, December 23, 2010 (UTC)|text=Alright, with an overwhelming amount of yay's to only a single "nay", I'm calling this official. I'll link this topic to our notice so that it gets around in the community. Thanks for all of your input guys, and be sure to change your signatures accordingly and reminding others to do the same! | |||
As for users who have disruptive signatures, there's a handy template right here that was created by our old and departed moderator, Urutapu. [[Template:Unsigned|It's here]]. Replacing a policy-breaking signature, ''especially'' one that breaks the rule of images being transcluded though a template, could be done through this. All you do is make the input the signing user's name. | |||
One last question, how is that guide to a template signature coming along?}} | |||
{{Soxra|roxas=I've set up a small guide [[User:Soxra/Lab/SignatureTutorial|here]] and it was approved by Neumannz, but Dan has a bigger and better one [[User:Dan_da_Man36/Signature_Guide|here]]. I'm thinking we put the succinct version (mine) in the Help page and link it to Dan's for further explanation. | |||
One question, if we see a user signature that violates the rules, are we allowed to correct it?|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=5:23am, December 23, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
{{Maggosh|flint=Swap the violating sig with the Unsigned template. Problem, practical, solved. Explained above. Hamalu.}} | |||
{{LapisScarab|time=05:29, December 23, 2010 (UTC)|text=The first step should always be to let the user know and see if they'll handle it his/herself (assume good faith). If they don't respond (i.e. they ignore the friendly reminder), perhaps then you could change it.}} | |||
{{SilverCrono|time=05:31, December 23, 2010 (UTC)|text=Crono approves of the policy. I hope we don't have any rebels (sorry for such a strong word, but I couldn't think of any better ones...) who refuse to join the policy-wagon. If we do, would punishment be administered? What would it be, delete their signature? | |||
Also, @ Maggosh: WTF nuggets is "Hamalu"?}} | |||
{{Soxra|ienzo=Zah, that's what I was wondering, if we had to issue "warnings"/reminders first, or if we just went ahead and did it.|time={{User:Soxra/Sig|t=5:32am, December 23, 2010 (UTC)}}}} | |||
{{Maggosh|nathan=@Crono; Phonetic Vagineer backwards speak. I still don't know what it means.}} | |||
{{Dan da Man36|time=12:43, December 23, 2010 (UTC)|xmas=I'm a bit late it seems... This policy seems alright to me, I'll be sure to add it to [[User:Dan da Man36/Signature Guide]] at some point. | |||
There's also a pretty fool-proof coding for modifying font style, colour and size in the guide. | |||
<small><small>My sig images are 18x18 pixels! Run away!</small></small>}} | |||
{{ANX219|time=19:50, December 24, 2010 (UTC)|normal=The person with the Sephrioth image in Images 1 and 2 his name is Sephrioth something, I can't remember.}} | |||
{{CaelumLucisCaliga|time=20:54, December 28, 2010 (UTC)|inverse=oh dear i'm ever so late. And I believe my images are the right size. <small><small>you take a wiki break and suddenly a president was elected...</small></small>}} | |||