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| {{Forumheader|The Realm of Sleep|The World that Never was}} | | {{Forumheader/The World that Never was}} |
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| {{LA|Vtext=Well, with the bot's new profanity filter and the warning log up, it has come to attention that there are some words that ought to be filtered... and some words that ought ''not'' to be. The latter option is the one I'd like to focus on. | | {{LA|Vtext=Well, with the bot's new profanity filter and the warning log up, it has come to attention that there are some words that ought to be filtered... and some words that ought ''not'' to be. The latter option is the one I'd like to focus on. |
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| And here are my reasons. "Crap" I think is pretty self-explanatory. Now, I'm not going to make it my main point that "tons of people say (insert bad word here)". It's just a bad argument. But seriously, lots of people do say crap. I was given an implied list of words I should not use when I was growing up, and crap was not on it. But "damn" was. Since "damn" is okay, I think that "crap" is a little over the top. Besides, the word is rarely used offensively. Unlike the next subject. | | And here are my reasons. "Crap" I think is pretty self-explanatory. Now, I'm not going to make it my main point that "tons of people say (insert bad word here)". It's just a bad argument. But seriously, lots of people do say crap. I was given an implied list of words I should not use when I was growing up, and crap was not on it. But "damn" was. Since "damn" is okay, I think that "crap" is a little over the top. Besides, the word is rarely used offensively. Unlike the next subject. |
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| "Ass" is tricky... but unless directly used offensively, I believe it should not be filte'm honestly divide on this matter. Crap does have it's negative uses, just like any other word, but what differentiates the positive or neutral usage from the negative usage is context. Yeah, there's what DTN wrote down, and that's good thinking, but basing something off of only negative data without a proper field run is a little jumping the gun, don't you think? | | "Ass" is tricky... but unless directly used offensively, I believe it should not be filtered. As <s>DTN</s> the ops point out, people can read context. That is a skill I believe should be necessary when it comes to the usage of this word, because "ass" has several meanings, and if you think about it, its offensive meaning isn't very offensive. Another point, media doesn't censor it. If anything would be censored, "asswhole" should be (and, when censored, it would be something like ass*****). The term shouldn't be used anyway, because it's not very nice. Point is, "ass" isn't a very bad word. Its varients are, and only in context can it be. |
| As for "ass", I'm not sure that word even has any positive uses, so keep it on there.red. As <s>DTN</s> the ops point out, people can read context. That is a skill I believe should be necessary when it comes to the usage of this word, because "ass" has several meanings, and if you think about it, its offensive meaning isn't very offensive. Another point, media doesn't censor it. If anything would be censored, "asswhole" should be (and, when censored, it would be something like ass*****). The term shouldn't be used anyway, because it's not very nice. Point is, "ass" isn't a very bad word. Its varients are, and only in context can it be.
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| Those are my thoughts. please post yours.}} | | Those are my thoughts. please post yours.}} |
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| On the topic of the word "ass", I think it shouldn't be inprofanity filter also. Primarily because it can be used to refer to a donkey. But then if that is allowed I don't see why the term "badass" should be on the filter too. As far as I am aware, I don't think its possible to insult someone with the term. And most of the times its used as a compliment to express how epic you think someone/thing is. And even if it is used to insult someone, I think the ops have enough competency to determine that its an insult and effectively apply the correct punishment/reprimand.}} | | On the topic of the word "ass", I think it shouldn't be inprofanity filter also. Primarily because it can be used to refer to a donkey. But then if that is allowed I don't see why the term "badass" should be on the filter too. As far as I am aware, I don't think its possible to insult someone with the term. And most of the times its used as a compliment to express how epic you think someone/thing is. And even if it is used to insult someone, I think the ops have enough competency to determine that its an insult and effectively apply the correct punishment/reprimand.}} |
| {{TNE|time=02:04, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|text=Please don't add anything until I've finished
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| EDIT 02:07, July 19, 2010 (UTC) : Now here's my food for thought :
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| *Bound to offend people, even minors, even if self-directed ? Don't say it.
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| *Known to be a bad word ? Don't say it.
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| *Pun of a bad word ? Don't say it.
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| Now even BK has used the light expletive beginning with C a few times, and I've allowed it because I don't find it particularly offensive. Some people even escape the swear filter by respelling it as "carp", which I admit I find rather hilarious. ^_^' If a person speaks in a way we're offended with, it's on us to take the first step and say, "Please watch your language", but if he insists on going on with it, then and only then we slap the first warning. Most importantly, how would ''we'' speak in front of people of different kinds ? Note that there are also adults who abstain from profanity. (Hint hint.)}}
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| {{KrytenKoro|If we're going to keep the profanity filter, they should both stay in. This isn't rocket science people, and it's not like you'll die if you don't say the words.
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| However, the sentiment behind this forum is a big argument for just getting rid of the filter: it's treated as a toy, or like some narrow-sighted guard in a video game, and you people act like it's okay to say anything inappropriate, as long as the filter doesn't specifically catch it. That is, to say the least, extremely disappointing. It's supposed to be a guideline to encourage you guys to ''act mature'', but you people can't seem to grasp that.}}
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| {{DTN|time=02:53, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|text=In addition, nearly all words can be used offensively in some way, manner, form, or context. "Curse words" happen to be able to be able to be used offensively much easier than other words. we need to recognize that and abstain from using those specific words in a PG-rated channel. It has obviously been made clear that both "crap" and "ass" are recognized as this type of especially offensive word.
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| I also completely agree with what KrytenKoro says. Since this goes right along with what I said in the last IRC complaint forum, I'm going to repeat myself. '''''If we have no maturity and no respect for the rules and regulations you agree to follow as a member of the channel, then we have NO CHANNEL.'''''}}
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| {{TNE|time=02:47, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|text=Acting maturely is more about guarding the sentiments of others, if you ask me. It defeats the purpose if things we say appear or do not appear in the swear filter, but it's still offensive all the same. Having said thus, the language should be likewise.}}
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| {{LA|Vtext=Thank you for pointing that out, Kryten. I'm aware that the idea is to get people to use the filtered words less. I'm also aware that, in the future, users are going to say crap, and get flagged for it, and all that will come out of it is this discussion again. I think we can all agree that "ass" can remain filtered. But let's face it, I think most IRC goers believe that "crap" is an okay word. People are going to get all butthurt when they find out they can't use it, and this discussion is going to open again. We can avoid that problem by giving "crap" a loose leash, and tightening it if the word ever becomes a problem. So far, I haven't seen any problems. Why not deal with it ''then'', when it will actually ''matter''?
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| And as for your point, Kryten, I in no way started this to get rid of the filter. I started it so we can discuss what goes in and out, what specifically constitutes a "bad word", and it might have got a bit out of hand. This isn't about rebelling against policies at all.
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| And I think we can all agree to just '''be nice to each other'''. The swear filter was designed for this purpose.
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| EDIT: And I'm not going to let the admins override this forum with accusations. This is something the IRC community needs to talk about, because it is up to all of us what offends us and what doesn't. Just because the admins don't like what goes in and out of the filter shouldn't mean that that is the law. It's up to the community to choose, not a few admins who know how to pose an argument.}}
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| {{OKH|time=03:07, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|talk=Compromise...To what I learned, compromising is one of the best ways to solve problems...Maybe it will work.}}
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| Hmph.
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| If you really need a filter to keep the IRC chat going, then why bother to have it? I say just scrap the whole thing if the chat cannot be handled: The fight over IRC has gone on for a long time. Too long, to say the least. Or change the rules to be more relaxed. Although with the community the wikia wishes to promote, changing the rules will probably be just as bad if not worse than doing nothing. Amazing how a few words can create conflict in here while elsewhere, very explicit content doesn't even need to be shrugged off...--[[User:Pkthis|Pkthis]] 03:26, July 19, 2010 (UTC)
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| {{TNE|time=03:37, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|angrytext='''NOT''' compromise. Compromise is a necessary evil. If we want to enforce the right to speak, the other person's right must be respected.
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| And again, I'm not going to take a sledgehammer and break down the channel because of this issue. I'm not the only one who has to be nice over here !}}
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| {{OKH|time=03:41, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|sad=Please explain to me how Compromise is evil...}}
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| {{TNE|time=03:45, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=At the expense of truth you choose to give up some values and some things just to pacify everyone. That's not the way it should work.
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| Everyone must treat everyone else with love. This is not compromise. It's just charity. Compromise would involve silencing yourself when you have something to mention.}}
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| {{OKH|time=03:47, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|sad=I'm sorry. I didn't know...;__;I was wrong...;__;}}
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| {{LA|Vtext=Oh no! TNE, please don't get mad...
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| I agree with you both, really. Compromise is a good way to deal with this, but I think it is agreeable to respect user's preferences on this. And '''we are in no way breaking down the channel for this.''' That is the "easy way out", and will NOT be taken at this time. YOu guys! Thisisn't supposed to be a problem, the intention is a debate to choose what deserves to be warned or not! Can we just stop overreacting to everything that's going on and actually start '''resolving the issue'''? Let's '''NOT''' drop this, because it needs to be discussed! We can come to a comprimise, I know it!
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| Edit conflict: And, TNE, thank you for making that point. But, let's face it, that's not how poeple work. People are going to treat each other with disrespect no matter how many policies we make. If we are to be expected to treat each other nicely, there would be no reason for the swear filter.
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| Edit conflict 2: You were not wrong, OKH.}}
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| {{TNE|time=04:00, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|blahtext=I repeat : you were not wrong, OKH.
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| We can't just stop at how people work ! KHW is more moral-policed over because of the fact that minors abound, more than FFW. If we're just going to jump the gun and say "this is how people work", then it's pretty much a case of "my right is different from your right", meaning relativism. Which, given the values KH brings up, has no place on KHW or the IRC. There needs to be standard rules. If people don't work the way we expect them to (i.e. according to what has been jointly agreed upon), then we chide them politely. AT least we're still acting in our loving way. But go beyond that line, and we warn or worse.}}
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| {{OKH|time=04:03, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|talk=Ah...okay. I see what your saying. Sorry for acting like a brat before.......}}
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| {{LA|Vtext=Stop beating yourself up, OKH. You didn't do anything wrong.
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| Now, can we get some serious response to the actual point now? I'd just like to put aside all of this senseless fighting. It's gotten us almost nowhere. Not that I'm disregarding what you've all said, I'd just like to get back on topic ^^}}
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| {{TNE|time=04:11, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|text=Again, as BK and Yuan once put it, it all depends on the context of the words. Yuan had suggested words to be removed from the swear filter (two of which, you have suggested, I think). They can be used casually, or they can be used as derogatory statements. Now, the burden will be upon us to find out in which context it's being used (gah, I sound like a lawyer !), and then act accordingly. What say you ?
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| And smile a little more, OKH. I'm sorry if I sounded harsh.}}
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| {{SC|time=04:16, July 19, 2010 (UTC)|text=Just to put my two cents in, I think crap should be an acceptable word and ass should stay a profanity.}}
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| {{KrytenKoro|LA: Rereading my last post, it was unclear. ''I am not at all yelling at you''. I was addressing the sentiments on the IRC that led you to make the forum in the first place.}}
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| {{Keyblade0|time= July 19, 2010| text=Crap should be unfiltered, since it’s not really a “bad word”, while ass should stay filtered(I very rarely, no, ''never'' went to the IRC channel, and I don’t think I go there… anytime soon)}}
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| Not to be mean or anything, but this is kind of a dumb argument altogether. This wiki is based on information and profanity in pretty much any form has no place to be here. I'm no G-rated talker, I can cuss like a sailor, but I see no reason why crap should be unfiltered. [[User:Axel's Sentiment|Axel's Sentiment]] 02:42, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
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| :This discussion is about the IRC, not the wiki. --{{User:LegoAlchemist/Sig}} 02:46, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
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| Well, I've got a solution. I can still record the mention of the word crap, but remove the 'warning' the bot gives when it's said. That way, user's don't feel like their being threatened, but it's still being recorded. [[User:Adola|Adola]] 08:59, July 20, 2010 (UTC)
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| {{BebopKate|time=20:32, July 24, 2010 (UTC)|text=Wow, that's a long discussion on cuss words. You sure none of you work for the Supreme Court? ^_-
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| Actually, I think crap is fine, as is ass in the appropriate contexts. I would not have said anything to a student of mine who said crap in a classroom; raised an eyebrow, yes, but I would not have penalized them. Nor if they read the word "ass" in a book about donkeys.
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| There's only so far you can police language; after that, it just becomes a lot of stress and not worth the trouble.
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| That said, with great power comes great responsibility, so if the privilege is abused, it can ''always'' be changed.}}
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