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Talk:AntiSora: Difference between revisions
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:::You are wrong. The body and soul don't fade away ''forever'', they disappear into the darkness until the corresponding Heartless is destroyed. Just like how the destroyed worlds disappeared into darkness but were brought back after Ansem was defeated. Also, why would they bother showing that NPC during the credits other than to show that he's back to normal? [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 19:51, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | :::You are wrong. The body and soul don't fade away ''forever'', they disappear into the darkness until the corresponding Heartless is destroyed. Just like how the destroyed worlds disappeared into darkness but were brought back after Ansem was defeated. Also, why would they bother showing that NPC during the credits other than to show that he's back to normal? [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 19:51, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | ||
::::They were simply just showing the man from Traverse Town. Not the one that got turned into a Heartless. They were showing the one that they re-used a character model for. "they disappear into the darkness until the corresponding Heartless is destroyed." This has never been said in KH at all, so we have no reason to believe that that is how things work. All we know is that someone returns a complete person after both their Heartless and Nobodies are destroyed. It has never been said anywhere that they return just by their Heartless being destroyed. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | ::::They were simply just showing the man from Traverse Town. Not the one that got turned into a Heartless. They were showing the one that they re-used a character model for. "they disappear into the darkness until the corresponding Heartless is destroyed." This has never been said in KH at all, so we have no reason to believe that that is how things work. All we know is that someone returns a complete person after both their Heartless and Nobodies are destroyed. It has never been said anywhere that they return just by their Heartless being destroyed. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | ||
:::::Why would they show him? Wouldn't it make more sense to show the man who returned to being human? He was in the Second District, after all. Ienzo in KH3D: "When someone whose lost their heart is recompleted, they should return to the place where it happened.". Nobody involved or not. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 03:17, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::The man who took over for Cid in the Accessory Shop is not the same man who became a Soldier Heartless in the Second District, they just happen to be completely identical. Like I said, it's most likely just a re-use of a character model and when you talk to him in the Accessory Shop for the first time, he even mentions that you have him mistaken for someone else, which proves that it is simply a different person. Also, I just watched the credits for KH1, and that man was no where to be seen in the credits. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 06:09, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Death does not happen until the soul leaves the body. That's been in the canon since the beginning. Merely being turned into a Heartless doesn't kill you, and every game has talked about returning the people and worlds whose hearts were lost to darkness. We don't need to be told that you don't have to have a Nobody, because we were told you could return them even before we learned that Nobodies existed. A Nobody's body and soul fade into darkness just like the body and soul do if they weren't strong enough to form a Nobody in the first place -- that's where they wait for the heart to rejoin them. Nomura was very emphatic that the Heartless/Nobody process wasn't supposed to be an analogue to death, whose mechanics he preferred to not treat as a major plot point (the source of the inaccurate fanon that death doesn't exist in the KH universe).{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Ah, okay. Makes sense. I still think it's likely that the man in the Accessory Shop was not the same man who became a Soldier because of what he says when you first talk to him. I guess it's also possible though that he ''is'' the same guy and he just lost his memories of when he was a Soldier, which is extremely likely now that I think about it. Yeah, that's probably what happened. We'll never know for certain though unless Nomura brings it up in an interview which isn't likely at all since that Traverse Town man is not relevant at all. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 00:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Yeah, I know all of that. When did I ever imply that I didn't. He wasn't?! Seriously? But I remember seeing him... Guess I'll have to play through the game again to find proof of my claim. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 17:23, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Yeah, that man isn't in the credits at all. You can just look it up on YouTube or something, you don't have to play through the game again lol, but yeah, you're probably right that it's the same guy who became a Soldier. He most likely just forgot about his time as a Soldier. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 00:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::I never said they were the same guy!! When did you get the impression that I did?! I may not always have the best memory when it comes to A LOT of things, but this time I'm sure of what I remember. I'll play through the game, and KHII, to find the guy being recompleted. If he's not in the credits of 1, then he's either somewhere else in the game, or in the credits of II. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 01:41, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Oh, sorry, I thought that's what you were saying. Anyways, that's what I think now though. I think they were most likely the same guy. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 01:51, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::Eh, it's alright. It was just kind of annoying. To each their own. We've both got things we see differently on. Like I always say: It's all a matter of perspective. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 01:58, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::"though I guess you could argue that the man in Traverse Town appears to be running from something unseen.". I always thought that was kinda obvious considering that I got it right away when I first saw it. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:03, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | ::"though I guess you could argue that the man in Traverse Town appears to be running from something unseen.". I always thought that was kinda obvious considering that I got it right away when I first saw it. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:03, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | ||
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I guess I've just been searching for answers for the unexplained and fillings for plot holes, when there simply isn't any. At least not yet. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 06:17, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | I guess I've just been searching for answers for the unexplained and fillings for plot holes, when there simply isn't any. At least not yet. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 06:17, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | ||
:No, the stuff you added was all very, very useful. We should add it to the article, we just want to make sure we check for when other parts of the canon contradict what was said.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:12, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | :No, the stuff you added was all very, very useful. We should add it to the article, we just want to make sure we check for when other parts of the canon contradict what was said.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:12, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | ||
::Okay, awesome. I edited the Heartless, Nobody, and Heart pages. I added some stuff and removed some false stuff. Let me know if anything I changed is incorrect. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:44, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::I've corrected some stuff that you misunderstood, and would also like to ask that ''every'' claim that is added has a citation. These pages badly need them.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
On a side note from all of this, I wanted to ask a question. Has there ever been a time where we've seen a heart being stolen, other than the time in Traverse Town? If so could I have some examples? I was thinking about this because on the [[Heartless]] page, it says "Once that machine was activated, most stolen hearts become Emblems, provided they contain darkness." The part of this sentence that I'm concerned about is the "Once that machine was activated" part, because if we've never seen a heart being stolen before the machine was activated, then who's to say that stolen hearts becoming Emblems was just a thing that began after the machine was activated? I think this sentence should simply say "Stolen hearts become Emblems as well, provided they contain darkness." since we don't know if, why, or how the machine started it. The two ways to create an Emblem is with the machine and a heart being stolen. Since this is the case, then what would happen if someone stole someone's heart before the machine was created? It would create an Emblem, right?, it just probably wouldn't have the Emblem logo on it. The reason why I'm asking if we've ever seen someone's heart being stolen other than the man in Traverse Town is because I believe that Emblems are the only things that ''can'' steal hearts. I'm pretty sure that we've never seen anyone else steal a heart before. It says in the Secret Ansem Reports that Emblems steal hearts and use them to increase their ranks. It never says that any other person like a being of darkness or something, such as Maleficent or Xehanort can do this, so I'm pretty sure that Emblems are the only beings that have the ability to steal hearts because they do so to increase their ranks. Purebloods consume hearts which turns them into more Purebloods, right? Or do the hearts they consume just fade into darkness? Anyways, that's off-topic. So yeah, have we ever seen anyone other than Emblems steal hearts and turn them into other Emblems? (other than Terra-Xehanort's machine of course). --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 06:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::The only definition of Emblem Heartless that I know of, in regards to creating them, is that they are artificial Heartless that were invented by Ansem's apprentices, and that they created a machine to make them. Now, they appear in KHX anyway, but that could just be time travel using the Book of Prophecies. In any case, we see people becoming Emblem Heartless with absolutely no Heartless or machine nearby - most notably, the Nightwalkers in The Land of Dragons. We ''cannot claim'' that the heart has to be stolen by an Emblem, because we have proof positive that you can become an Emblem even if you lose your heart a different way. In fact, the time in Traverse Town doesn't even depict what kind of Heartless the guy was running from. As far as the machine is concerned, we have no reason to believe that the person has to be literally hooked up to the machine -- the same person also somehow invented a technique so that any Emblem slain by a Keyblade, no matter the world, was sent to his personal, artificial Kingdom Hearts. It's very, very easy to believe that the machine makes it so that any stolen/lost heart, no matter the world, becomes an Emblem Heartless, so there's no reason to believe "the machine" is a separate method from "hearts being stolen". | |||
::As for who can steal hearts, the Ansem Reports, KHII, and Days are all pretty clear that ''all'' Heartless steal hearts. The difference just appears to be whether they are simply siphoned darkness (and so empty on the inside), or that same darkness covering a stolen heart (and so release a heart when destroyed). Honestly, I'd wager that the reason Sora became a Shadow was because his heart went into Kairi, and was not actually inside the Shadow as we played it.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::Okay, yeah you're right. Knowing Kingdom Hearts and the things that have happened before, it's not so hard to believe that a machine could affect all hearts like that. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
I thought of an explanation to the man in Traverse Town and the soldiers in Land of Dragons turning into Emblem Heartless. There's no proof to it, it's just something I thought of. I believe that hearts consumed by the darkness within your heart or consumed by other Purebloods, become Purebloods, and I believe that hearts created by the machine and hearts consumed by other Emblems, become Emblems. Here's my explanation to why those people we saw became Emblems: I believe that people become Emblems when another Emblem is the catalyst of their heart being consumed by darkness. For example, those soldiers in the Land of Dragons. I think that they were attacked by Emblem Heartless, which added to the darkness in their heart, which made darkness consume their heart. I think that when you're attacked by a Heartless, darkness from the Heartless gets into your heart and can affect it and if that Heartless' darkness completely consumes your heart, you become a Heartless. So, this means that those soldiers in the Land of Dragons were previously fighting some Emblem Heartless, and by doing so, darkness go into their hearts and was slowly eating away at them, and then they eventually turned into Emblem Heartless. This same thing could be applied to the man in Traverse Town who was seen turning into a Soldier Heartless. But yeah, there's no proof for this claim, but what do you think? --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 04:15, 28 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:In all honesty, like some of your other thoeries, I think it's sub-par. Though I suppose that to the eyes of others, the same is true for my thoeries. Ah well, don't let my opinion offend or deter you, keep it up! [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:26, 28 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::It's plausible, but we can't make that claim on the article because we simply don't know whether those soldiers were even attacked by Heartless, much less which kind they were. Hell, Scar wasn't attacked by any Heartless at all, and his darkness revived as ghosts and eventually became an Emblem. A long-dead dragon was revived by Xigbar and became an Emblem, too. Honestly, the only Pureblood that we see definitely created from a person once the machine was active is Sora, and he was using the Keyblade of heart that Riku-Ansem specifically said would draw out his darkness. We badly need to rewrite the Heartless and Heart articles to ''only'' make claims that are backed up by the canon.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 05:38, 28 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::Nevermind, after thinking about it, you're right. After the machine was activated, everyone becomes Emblems rather than Purebloods, and the reason Sora became a Pureblood is because his heart most likely took refuge inside of Kairi, so the darkness was not able to get to his heart and create an Emblem. The darkness was just left there to become a Pureblood instead. Makes complete sense. As for the pages, yeah they definitely need to be completely redone and sourced. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 09:23, 28 February 2016 (UTC) | |||