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*Pureblood Heartless can be summoned or created from darkness itself, as done with AntiSora or the Darksides, without that person having lost their heart. | *Pureblood Heartless can be summoned or created from darkness itself, as done with AntiSora or the Darksides, without that person having lost their heart. | ||
:It's really damn similar to demons in Xanth, honestly. Demons in Xanth only have souls, and that soul is so busy trying to do the job of the other missing components, that it can't do its real job to snuff, so the demon acts soulless. The Heartless have hearts working overtime to give them the physicality of a body, so they lack emotion or love. The Nobodies have their body and soul trying to give them the semblance of emotions (until the retcon that they just regrow hearts, because they're all a pack of Ensemble Darkhorses that have to get Mary Sue retconned powers every five minutes), so they're not always completely "there", and fade away when they die. Something that is missing an important piece of itself becomes obsessed with that piece, and forgets to treasure what it already has.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:32, 8 February 2016 (UTC) | :It's really damn similar to demons in Xanth, honestly. Demons in Xanth only have souls, and that soul is so busy trying to do the job of the other missing components, that it can't do its real job to snuff, so the demon acts soulless. The Heartless have hearts working overtime to give them the physicality of a body, so they lack emotion or love. The Nobodies have their body and soul trying to give them the semblance of emotions (until the retcon that they just regrow hearts, because they're all a pack of Ensemble Darkhorses that have to get Mary Sue retconned powers every five minutes), so they're not always completely "there", and fade away when they die. Something that is missing an important piece of itself becomes obsessed with that piece, and forgets to treasure what it already has.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:32, 8 February 2016 (UTC) | ||
:'''In my opinion, I think that my interpretation leaves the least plot holes and makes the most sense.'''' | |||
:I think the same about my interpretation. Also I find yours to be too confusing. | |||
:'''Yeah, I get that he's special, but I don't see how that could ''ever'' explain him turning into a Shadow.''' | |||
:Except that Sora's only special because he's not special. Master Xehanort called him a "dull, ordinary boy". | |||
:'''Also, I don't buy that Kairi was just able to return Sora because of her "Princess of Heart powers".''' | |||
:Same here. I think that it was the special bond that they share that allowed Sora to become human again. Then again, it could have because of Sora. Ansem the Wise did say "Sora was the only one able to return to his human form without destroying his Nobody. That is a statement to the love in his heart for other people.". | |||
:'''The exact same thing happened to Eraqus. His heart broke and Terra went over to embrace him and he seemingly disappeared, but his heart was able to take refuge inside of Terra.''' | |||
:No. Eraqus died. Literally, died. But as one's heart is immortal, Eraqus was able to seek refuge in Terra. | |||
:'''The same thing happened to Sora: Kairi ran over to embrace Sora after he unlocked his heart, he seemingly disappeared, then I think his heart then took refuge inside of Kairi.''' | |||
:No, Kairi ran over to catch Sora who was falling. He didn't "seemingly disappear", he ''actually'' disappeared. If he had, what would that accomplish for him? They'd just be back to square one. | |||
:'''And saying that "Purebloods are created when someone willingly falls into darkness and Emblems are created when someone forcefully falls into darkness" doesn't quite add up as well, because of the AntiSora situation.''' | |||
:I agree. But I'm stickin' with it. | |||
:'''My theory also greatly clears up the Ansem, Seeker of Darkness situation as well. It pretty much clears it all up.''' | |||
:Makes things cloudier for me. | |||
:'''Is it fact? No. None of what any of us think about this is fact really.''' | |||
:True. | |||
:'''But until we get more information on this from future games, interviews, etc and until Nomura straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created or until a KH game straight up says how Purebloods/Emblems are created, it's all interpretation and minor things to go off of like very vague comments from Ansem, Terra-Xehanort, etc.''' | |||
:A statement from Nomura(somewhere) treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing, remember? I mentioned this earlier. | |||
:'''Also yeah, Pete might not be the best source for information, especially since many villains in the KH series purposefully try to steer us in the wrong direction and give us false information.''' | |||
:Also he's not too bright. | |||
:'''I definitely think it's completely possible that Scar was a Heartless, but yeah, it's also very possible that Pete was lying and Scar just simply gained the ability to control darkness, like most of the other villains.''' | |||
:Or Pete was just wrong. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 00:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::'''The Ansem's Reports, in canon, are full of lies.''' | |||
::What makes you say that? | |||
::'''That being said, the Secret Ansem's Report (where they started the ''retcons'') definitely say Sora regained his human form from Kairi's heart, specifically not his own.''' | |||
::I really hate that word. Though Ansem the Wise said otherwise(heh) in KH3D. | |||
::'''We see ''multiple'' Pureblood Heartless created from one person before their hearts are spilled -- the Darkside in the Dive to the Heart was Sora's, after all, as implicitly are the other Heartless that appear.''' | |||
::The Dive to the Heart is a strange space. Sora had never left his island before his first Dive yet his pillars depict the Princessess and people who knew them. | |||
::'''Additionally, the way it's described in some sources, a Heartless is born when someone with darkness in their heart has it separated from their body and soul, with the Heartless being a side effect of the process, and may not necessarily be the heart itself -- although the process of retrieving the heart is the same as defeating the Heartless, and the stolen heart appears from the Heartless's remains, making it a pretty meaningless distinction.''' | |||
::Never heard that before, so I can't argue. | |||
::'''(not necessarily through being stolen by another Emblem -- see the Necromancers in The Land of Dragons)''' | |||
::Those were Nightwalkers. Necromancers are the Cavern of Remembrance versions of the Shaman Heartless | |||
::'''Pureblood Heartless can be summoned or created from darkness itself, as done with AntiSora or the Darksides, without that person having lost their heart.''' | |||
::How does that "have to be true" as you call it? | |||
::'''The Nobodies have their body and soul trying to give them the semblance of emotions (until the retcon that they just regrow hearts, because they're all a pack of Ensemble Darkhorses that have to get Mary Sue retconned powers every five minutes)''' | |||
::Nobodies being able to grow hearts of their has been hinted from the very beginning, KH3D just confirmed it. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 00:37, 9 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
Okay, just to make sure I'm clear on this, Purebloods are simply a manifestation of darkness that can be created from darkness itself ''or'' the darkness from someone's heart? They are the byproduct of a strong amount of darkness whether it be of the heart or just in general? They can be created from simply someone's strong amount of darkness, like with AntiSora, or they can be created when someone's darkness leaves their body? When that darkness leaves the body, it becomes a Pureblood? Emblems were originally created by Terra-Xehanort's | Okay, just to make sure I'm clear on this, Purebloods are simply a manifestation of darkness that can be created from darkness itself ''or'' the darkness from someone's heart? They are the byproduct of a strong amount of darkness whether it be of the heart or just in general? They can be created from simply someone's strong amount of darkness, like with AntiSora, or they can be created when someone's darkness leaves their body? When that darkness leaves the body, it becomes a Pureblood? Emblems were originally created by Terra-Xehanort's machine, but afterwards, any heart that is consumed by darkness turns into an Emblem? So, was I right about some of what I said about Purebloods being the darkness in people's hearts animated and that Sora's Heartless was the darkness inside Sora's heart that came out when his heart left? Where did his heart go if this is the case? Where do hearts go when they are broken, unlocked, or leave the body? Okay, now I have a few questions. First, before Terra-Xehanort created that machine, what happened to hearts that were consumed by darkness? How did him making that machine all of a sudden trigger it to be that when a heart falls to darkness, it becomes an Emblem? Next, is how come when Terra-Xehanort unlocked his heart in BBS his guardian melted and he fell into the Realm of Darkness? He unlocked his heart which made him get consumed by darkness. Shouldn't that have created a Heartless and a Nobody and his heart being consumed or whatever? Why didn't this happen to him and instead he fell into the Realm of Darkness? Why didn't he create a Heartless like other people would've? Next, is wouldn't it be possible for someone to have a Pureblood Heartless ''and'' an Emblem Heartless? If a Pureblood is the darkness from someone's heart and an Emblem is the actual heart itself being consumed, then couldn't someone have multiple Heartless? If so, would you have to defeat them both to re-create the original person? Why does killing a Pureblood make the person return when a Pureblood is just darkness? If you kill someone's Emblem Heartless and their Nobody, but not their Pureblood, does that re-create the person except without any darkness in their heart? Why did the Pureblood Heartless originally go to the Realm of Darkness? Their goal is to consume hearts and there's obviously like no hearts in the Realm of Darkness, so why aren't they out there in the Realm of Light consuming hearts? I know Sora and Mickey sealed the Door to Darkness so no more Pureblood Heartless can get out, but why did the Pureblood Heartless go there in the first place? Pureblood Heartless obviously aren't born in the Realm of Darkness, as seen with Sora's Heartless and AntiSora. Since Pureblood Heartless are the darkness of someone's heart, then why isn't Vanitas considered to be a Pureblood Heartless because he's literally the darkness of Ven's heart extracted? Do we know for sure if Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is Pureblood or Emblem? If not, then what are your thoughts on it? Also, what are your thoughts on whether Scar is Pureblood or Emblem? Sorry, I'm just very confused on this topic because over the past month, many people across the internet have been telling me different things, so I've been left extremely confused. Could you tell me ''exactly'' what things are known about this and are canon and what things are false and unanswered? It really seems that a majority of KH fans are confused about this topic, which is very odd considering Heartless are the main enemy type in the series and have been there since the first game. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC) | ||
:Ansem the Wise in KH2, as DiZ, said that they falsely bore his name. There are also events within like a report attributed in KH2 to Xehanort claiming that Mickey met with the author, when Mickey met with Ansem instead, and the events of that meeting are misreported. So, at the very least, anything about current events is unreliable, and considering Ansem is proven wrong about the darkness of Kingdom Hearts at the end, we can't take him as word of god on metaphysics, either. | |||
:Remember, just because Xehanort is patronizing to all the other characters, that doesn't mean he's ''right''. For all his bluster, for all his scary, intimidating plans, he still keeps losing because he ''does'' make mistakes. | |||
:You may hate the word "retcon", doesn't mean that isn't what it is. Half of what we're told in KH2 makes the events of KH1 make no gotdamn sense. For example, the idea that there are more than one Keyblade for each realm, which also erases a lot of the drama behind Sora and Riku's struggle over it. Fundamentally, the idea that Ansem ''is not Ansem'', which literally every character including the natives of Hollow Bastion believed. Etc. | |||
:What makes Sora so special, what Xehanort doesn't consider meaningful, is how his heart can care for others. And his heart, which let in Ventus's broken heart, is thus connected to the princesses. BbS actually explains why the princesses showed up in the Dive to the Heart, and it's still presented as canon, unlike some of the other Dives which are merely for selecting your character. | |||
:That Purebloods can be summoned without the heart being lost has to be true ''because we see it happen''. Riku specifically brags about his ability to create the AntiSora, and we see the Darkside generated from Sora, as well as (according to Zexion) the Darkside generated from Riku. | |||
:That Nomura can't resist the temptation to make the characters generate drama even while trying to get credibility for claiming they are emotionless is obvious, but yeah, he can claim he foreshadowed that one. There is literally no part of the franchise, except for Xion's first few days in the organization, where any of his supposedly heartless Nobodies (including the Replicas) act like they don't have hearts. | |||
:All darkness ''is'' the darkness in people's hearts. It isn't a separate font -- the darkness in the realm of darkness exists because there is darkness in people's hearts, and always will exist until every character becomes a purity pure heart of light pureness. Purebloods are born from that darkness, which always traces its origin to somebody's heart, ''but that person doesn't need to have broken into pieces''. | |||
:If you're confused about sources, I would recommend searching the scripts, ultimania transcripts, and interviews for information on hearts and heartless like I've been doing. In fact, if you wanted to start adding citations to [[Heartless]] and [[Heart]], that would be incredibly appreciated. The whole thing's a bit of a mess because the writers will make one type of half-answer claim in Word of God interviews or ultimanias, show something very conflicting in the game itself, and have all the in-canon authorities claiming something completely different, so it's all very wishywashy. Honestly, I would appreciate if they stopped retconning stuff all the time.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:33, 9 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
I guess it all just simply comes down to the fact that we'll have to wait for 2.8, KH3, and future games to come out to really know the answers to these things for sure. I imagine that series like KH are incredibly difficult and frustrating to make/run a wiki for because of how convoluted it is and you don't know exactly what is fact and what is not. It annoys me when I see people on forums, reddit, etc who think that they know the definite answers to things like this are and spread false information which makes everyone even more confused and there's not much you can do about it until you have solid proof about something. But whatevs. I'm sure I'll come back to this page or wherever on this wiki to discuss this topic again once a new game comes out and we get some proof of something or answers to unanswered questions. Also, I actually began reading every single KH interview the other day and if I come across anything that I think could be added as a citation, I'll make sure to do so. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 02:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
<br/> | |||
Sorry to bring this topic back up again for the thousandth time, but I read the Secret Ansem Reports about a dozen times, and I'm pretty certain that I have a complete understanding of everything now. Everything is completely explained in the Secret Ansem Reports. Here's everything explained (with proof):<br/> | |||
Pureblood Heartless definitely do not have hearts. ("Those beings who lack hearts—the Heartless—must be the key.") ("Cursed shadows who not only lack hearts")<br/> | |||
Pureblood Heartless are the darkness of people's hearts. They are not the heart itself. ("The darkness of the heart, made flesh.") ("When a person's heart is stolen, a Heartless is born")<br/> | |||
When someone becomes a Heartless, their heart disappears and fades away into darkness. ("A being does not perish when its heart leaves its body. The heart alone disappears into the darkness.")<br/> | |||
Emblem Heartless were originally created by a machine that Terra-Xehanort created. ("Not only did they generate "pureblood" Heartless from living hearts, but they then used those Heartless to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well. These synthetic Heartless bore insignias and were called "Emblems."")<br/> | |||
Emblem Heartless can also be created by other Emblem Heartless stealing their heart. This is why the man in Traverse Town turned into a Soldier. ("the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks.")<br/> | |||
Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is a Heartless. ("As I had suspected, Xehanort had become a Heartless.")<br/> | |||
It is unknown whether Ansem, Seeker of Darkness is Pureblood or Emblem because it is unknown how he was created. It is unknown if Terra-Xehanort's heart left his body and faded into darkness by him unlocking it or if he used his machine/gotten another Emblem Heartless to turn himself a Heartless. If he unlocked his heart, then he would've became a Pureblood, if he used his machine/gotten an Emblem Heartless to consume him, then he would've turned into an Emblem. He most likely turned himself into a Heartless using the machine. I think this because of what Young Xehanort says in DDD. He says "that is Xehanort, reduced to just a heart." Emblem Heartless are hearts that have been synthesized into Heartless. ("to synthesize artificial versions of the creatures as well.") Pureblood Heartless are not hearts, that's why they were originally called "Heartless." So, he is most likely an Emblem. I do not believe that the Robed Figure was actually simply Xehanort's heart because of what Ansem the Wise says in the Secret Ansem Reports about hearts falling and fading into darkness when they leave the body and it has never been said anywhere that a heart is a Heartless. Hearts and Heartless are two completely different things, so what would be the purpose of them being called different things if they were the same thing. Many people say that when a heart leaves the body, it is a Heartless, which is simply not true.<br/> | |||
Another thing I wanted to note is that no Emblem Heartless ever existed before Terra-Xehanort created them. This also proves the fact that Emblem Heartless can only be created when another Emblem Heartless turns them into one (and can be created by the machine of course). So saying that Emblem Heartless are created when someone's heart is forcefully consumed by darkness is true. It is true because, from what we've seen so far, the only things that can forcefully consume someone's heart with darkness is Emblem Heartless. No one else can do that. Pureblood Heartless just simply devour hearts, which means they're gone forever, just like when a heart leaves the body. When an Emblem Heartless is killed, then they fade away forever as well (so do Purebloods). But when an Emblem Heartless is killed by a Keyblade, then the heart is released and goes out to return to its body, but if its body never became a Nobody, then the heart is doomed to either fade away to darkness or be devoured by Purebloods, which is essentially the same thing. When a Pureblood is destroyed, like I said, it is gone forever. Terra-Xehanort, along with his apprentices, used their machine to turn themselves into Emblem Heartless (presumably). This is why they were able to come back as complete beings when their Heartless and Nobodies were destroyed. This is not possible with a Pureblood, because they do not have the heart inside of them. We have never seen anyone become a complete person after their Pureblood is destroyed, so we have no reason to believe that it's possible to happen. The only case we've seen that happen is with Sora. The only reason that this happened to Sora is because of Kairi. Kairi used her heart to restore Sora's heart. ("Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.")<br/> | |||
So, in the KH universe, when your heart leaves your body, it fades away (unless it finds another body to take refuge in). And when the heart leaves the body, the darkness within the heart comes out and turns into a Pureblood Heartless. When this Pureblood Heartless is destroyed, then it's destroyed forever. Also, when the heart leaves the body, the body and soul fade away as well. If you had a strong enough heart before it left your body however, your soul will continue living on inside your body and your body will live on, this is called a Nobody. The stronger your heart is, the more and more your Nobody looks like you. When a Nobody is destroyed, they're gone forever (unless you became an Emblem Heartless instead of a Pureblood. If you became an Emblem and the Emblem is destroyed as well, then you will become a complete person again). Nobodies can also grow their own hearts and become complete people again that way. It is currently unexplained what happens if they have a corresponding Emblem Heartless instead of Pureblood and it's destroyed. Maybe the heart returns to that person and they get two hearts, maybe it returns and merges together with the heart they grew, or maybe it notices that the body doesn't need a heart any longer and it just fades away into darkness or gets devoured by Purebloods.<br/> | |||
As for AntiSora, then yeah, they're just the darkness from Riku's heart animated. As for Scar, it's still unknown if he became a Heartless or not and it's up for debate. Pete said "Anger and jealously" is what turned him into a Heartless, which cannot happen, so it's completely possible that Pete could have been false about the rest of that statement. What could've also happened though is that when Simba pushed him off the cliff, Scar "died", and his heart left his body and faded away and a Heartless was quickly created and he quickly jumped back on the ledge to fight. One could say that only a Heartless could be able to jump that high, but it has been seen with people such as Xehanort, that people with strong darkness begin to get superhuman and Heartless-like abilities. This is also a reason to believe Scar didn't turn into a Heartless as well though. He could've just gotten strong with the darkness and gained superhuman abilities like Xehanort and many of the other villains. But yeah, it doesn't say in the Journal anything about Scar being a Heartless, so the answer to this is completely unknown. | |||
Sorry again for bringing this topic back up and sorry for the large amount of text. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 03:56, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to mention something. What happens when someone ''chooses'' to be consumed by the darkness in their heart? Well, they get consumed by it and fall into the Realm of Darkness. This is seen with Riku in KH1 and Terra-Xehanort in BBS. Riku got consumed by the darkness in his heart on Destiny Islands. Terra-Xehanort got consumed by the darkness in his heart when he unlocked his heart with his Keyblade. Huh, I guess this also answers a question I've had for a while. That question was "What's the difference between stabbing yourself in the heart with the Keyblade of Heart and any old Keyblade?". I guess the answer is that stabbing yourself in the heart with any Keyblade makes you be consumed by the darkness, which takes you into the Realm of Darkness, and stabbing yourself with the Keyblade of Heart makes your heart fade away to darkness and then the darkness in your heart becomes a Heartless. When you "die" from being attacked, hit, stabbed, or anything along those lines, your heart leaves your body and the darkness turns into a Pureblood Heartless. This is seen when Xehanort attacks Eraqus with some sort of dark magic blast. This is also seen when Sora destroys all the Disney Villains. Their bodies fade away. Eraqus' heart getting released when he "dies" proves that all of these villains who died's hearts left their bodies and they became Heartless. So basically, stabbing yourself with the Keyblade of Heart basically acts as if you're "killing yourself", like you would with any other weapon, while stabbing yourself with a regular Keyblade makes you fall into the Realm of Darkness, like I said. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 04:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:That is not completely correct. Neither the man who became a Soldier, nor the soldiers who became Nightwalkers, are shown having their hearts stolen by Heartless. They are simply shown succumbing to darkness, though I guess you could argue that the man in Traverse Town ''appears'' to be running from something unseen. Furthermore, the fact that Xehanort's Heartless (brown cloak man) is repeatedly confirmed to be a Heartless by the Ultimania and Nomura, and is confirmed by the ''central plot gimmick of KH3D'' to be a heart, in addition to previous mentions of Xehanort's heartless residing in Riku's heart, demonstrates that Heartless are synonymous with hearts. | |||
:Saix says "Pitiful Heartless, mindlessly collecting hearts. And yet they know not the true power of what they hold. The rage of the Keyblade releases those hearts." He says that the Heartless are ''holding'' the hearts that the Keyblade releases, and that it is ''when the Keyblade releases those hearts'' that they gather in darkness, to form Kingdom Hearts. If the hearts had already faded into darkness when the Heartless took them, the Organization wouldn't need Sora to slay them. Also, multiple times the characters talk about people being "turned into" or "transformed" into Heartless, and in KH2, talk about how that would also produce a Nobody. We are very clearly, explicitly told that the Nobody is formed from the body and soul -- so what part is left to "turn into" the Heartless? The heart. The Secret Ansem's Report says "A human's commands would be ineffective: the Heartless would easily steal the human's heart and use it to increase their own ranks," indicating that it is the heart that is used to create new Heartless, not just the theft. According to Yen Sid, Xehanort's Heartless "seized" his heart, so I suppose we could say that the Heartless is a shell of darkness around the "captured" heart, and we have as many sources saying the Heartless "stole" the heart as we do sources saying that the Heartless is an "existence of just the heart", so for our purposes the two are equivalent. The heart is definitely "present" if a Heartless is there, so at best it's differentiating the egg from the yolk that is always inside of it as long as it continues to be an egg. | |||
:Next, Xemnas says "A heart is never lost for good," and the mythology behind Kingdom Hearts is that it is where ''all'' hearts go when they are set adrift, so we definitely can't say that any have been destroyed "for good" unless we're told so. | |||
:According to the plot mysteries, there's no real difference between stabbing yourself with the Keyblade of heart or using another Keyblade -- Sora had to use the Keyblade of heart because he is not a being of darkness, and stealing a heart requires the power of darkness. If Riku-Ansem still had Sora's Keyblade, he could have achieved the same effect. ("Beings of darkness can draw out the darkness in the heart, so Master Xehanort could summon the Neoshadows with his own hands.") | |||
:Ansem's reports do not demonstrate that they have been dissected and shown to lack hearts -- they demonstrate that they ''behave'' as if they do not have hearts, which makes sense if they are incomplete beings. | |||
:In addition, KHX is set before the machine appeared, and is chock full of Emblem Heartless. Whether that is due to them time traveling from the future, or Ansem's machine was simply recreating the effects of what happened before the Keyblade War, it is demonstrably false to claim that they did not exist before the machine. | |||
:Finally, Xaldin was attempting to turn Beast into a Heartless, and his method of doing so was to cause Beast to succumb to anger and rage, just as Pete said Scar succumbed to. Most of the villains, having succumbed to darkness, could be said to be in the stages of becoming a Heartless, but we are not told that the transformation is definitely underway except in Scar's case. I suppose you could argue that Scar has not completed the process, and thus is not truly a Heartless, but we'd need Nomura or the Ultimania to confirm that.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 05:15, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:"but if its body never became a Nobody, then the heart is doomed to either fade away to darkness or be devoured by Purebloods, which is essentially the same thing.". No. The man from Traverse Town was shown to have been recompleted at the end of KH1 during the credits roll. Basically, while every Nobody has a corresponding Heartless, not every Heartless has a corresponding Nobody. As a side note, this is how Ienzo in KH3D knows so much about recompletion. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:03, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::I'm pretty sure that that was just a re-use of character models. In Traverse Town after that man dies, we see a completely identical man again later and they even make a little joke about it. He mentions that we must be mistaken or something like that. It was just a re-use of character model and I'm assuming the after credits was as well. I always assumed that when you "die" (heart leaves the body), your body and soul fades while what's left of you turns into a Heartless. And if you had a strong enough heart, then your soul will continue living on in your body, making your body live on. And once both that body (your Nobody), and your Heartless get destroyed, then you become complete again. I'm pretty certain that you ''need'' both your Heartless and Nobody to be destroyed for you to return, and if you don't have a Nobody, like most people, then you're dead for good. If this wasn't true, then everyone in the KH universe would be completely eternal aside from dying of old age. So, I'm pretty sure it's false to say that someone without a Nobody can be completed if just their Heartless is destroyed. It wouldn't make sense scientifically either since in the KH universe, when your heart leaves your body, your body and soul fades away. If that man's body and soul faded away, then how would it be possible for him to return if only his Heartless was destroyed? I could be wrong though --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 06:15, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::You are wrong. The body and soul don't fade away ''forever'', they disappear into the darkness until the corresponding Heartless is destroyed. Just like how the destroyed worlds disappeared into darkness but were brought back after Ansem was defeated. Also, why would they bother showing that NPC during the credits other than to show that he's back to normal? [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 19:51, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::They were simply just showing the man from Traverse Town. Not the one that got turned into a Heartless. They were showing the one that they re-used a character model for. "they disappear into the darkness until the corresponding Heartless is destroyed." This has never been said in KH at all, so we have no reason to believe that that is how things work. All we know is that someone returns a complete person after both their Heartless and Nobodies are destroyed. It has never been said anywhere that they return just by their Heartless being destroyed. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:41, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::Why would they show him? Wouldn't it make more sense to show the man who returned to being human? He was in the Second District, after all. Ienzo in KH3D: "When someone whose lost their heart is recompleted, they should return to the place where it happened.". Nobody involved or not. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 03:17, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::The man who took over for Cid in the Accessory Shop is not the same man who became a Soldier Heartless in the Second District, they just happen to be completely identical. Like I said, it's most likely just a re-use of a character model and when you talk to him in the Accessory Shop for the first time, he even mentions that you have him mistaken for someone else, which proves that it is simply a different person. Also, I just watched the credits for KH1, and that man was no where to be seen in the credits. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 06:09, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Death does not happen until the soul leaves the body. That's been in the canon since the beginning. Merely being turned into a Heartless doesn't kill you, and every game has talked about returning the people and worlds whose hearts were lost to darkness. We don't need to be told that you don't have to have a Nobody, because we were told you could return them even before we learned that Nobodies existed. A Nobody's body and soul fade into darkness just like the body and soul do if they weren't strong enough to form a Nobody in the first place -- that's where they wait for the heart to rejoin them. Nomura was very emphatic that the Heartless/Nobody process wasn't supposed to be an analogue to death, whose mechanics he preferred to not treat as a major plot point (the source of the inaccurate fanon that death doesn't exist in the KH universe).{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Ah, okay. Makes sense. I still think it's likely that the man in the Accessory Shop was not the same man who became a Soldier because of what he says when you first talk to him. I guess it's also possible though that he ''is'' the same guy and he just lost his memories of when he was a Soldier, which is extremely likely now that I think about it. Yeah, that's probably what happened. We'll never know for certain though unless Nomura brings it up in an interview which isn't likely at all since that Traverse Town man is not relevant at all. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 00:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Yeah, I know all of that. When did I ever imply that I didn't. He wasn't?! Seriously? But I remember seeing him... Guess I'll have to play through the game again to find proof of my claim. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 17:23, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Yeah, that man isn't in the credits at all. You can just look it up on YouTube or something, you don't have to play through the game again lol, but yeah, you're probably right that it's the same guy who became a Soldier. He most likely just forgot about his time as a Soldier. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 00:43, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::I never said they were the same guy!! When did you get the impression that I did?! I may not always have the best memory when it comes to A LOT of things, but this time I'm sure of what I remember. I'll play through the game, and KHII, to find the guy being recompleted. If he's not in the credits of 1, then he's either somewhere else in the game, or in the credits of II. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 01:41, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::Oh, sorry, I thought that's what you were saying. Anyways, that's what I think now though. I think they were most likely the same guy. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 01:51, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::Eh, it's alright. It was just kind of annoying. To each their own. We've both got things we see differently on. Like I always say: It's all a matter of perspective. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 01:58, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::"though I guess you could argue that the man in Traverse Town appears to be running from something unseen.". I always thought that was kinda obvious considering that I got it right away when I first saw it. [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:03, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
I guess I've just been searching for answers for the unexplained and fillings for plot holes, when there simply isn't any. At least not yet. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 06:17, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:No, the stuff you added was all very, very useful. We should add it to the article, we just want to make sure we check for when other parts of the canon contradict what was said.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:12, 23 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::Okay, awesome. I edited the Heartless, Nobody, and Heart pages. I added some stuff and removed some false stuff. Let me know if anything I changed is incorrect. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:44, 24 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::I've corrected some stuff that you misunderstood, and would also like to ask that ''every'' claim that is added has a citation. These pages badly need them.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:47, 25 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
On a side note from all of this, I wanted to ask a question. Has there ever been a time where we've seen a heart being stolen, other than the time in Traverse Town? If so could I have some examples? I was thinking about this because on the [[Heartless]] page, it says "Once that machine was activated, most stolen hearts become Emblems, provided they contain darkness." The part of this sentence that I'm concerned about is the "Once that machine was activated" part, because if we've never seen a heart being stolen before the machine was activated, then who's to say that stolen hearts becoming Emblems was just a thing that began after the machine was activated? I think this sentence should simply say "Stolen hearts become Emblems as well, provided they contain darkness." since we don't know if, why, or how the machine started it. The two ways to create an Emblem is with the machine and a heart being stolen. Since this is the case, then what would happen if someone stole someone's heart before the machine was created? It would create an Emblem, right?, it just probably wouldn't have the Emblem logo on it. The reason why I'm asking if we've ever seen someone's heart being stolen other than the man in Traverse Town is because I believe that Emblems are the only things that ''can'' steal hearts. I'm pretty sure that we've never seen anyone else steal a heart before. It says in the Secret Ansem Reports that Emblems steal hearts and use them to increase their ranks. It never says that any other person like a being of darkness or something, such as Maleficent or Xehanort can do this, so I'm pretty sure that Emblems are the only beings that have the ability to steal hearts because they do so to increase their ranks. Purebloods consume hearts which turns them into more Purebloods, right? Or do the hearts they consume just fade into darkness? Anyways, that's off-topic. So yeah, have we ever seen anyone other than Emblems steal hearts and turn them into other Emblems? (other than Terra-Xehanort's machine of course). --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 06:49, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::The only definition of Emblem Heartless that I know of, in regards to creating them, is that they are artificial Heartless that were invented by Ansem's apprentices, and that they created a machine to make them. Now, they appear in KHX anyway, but that could just be time travel using the Book of Prophecies. In any case, we see people becoming Emblem Heartless with absolutely no Heartless or machine nearby - most notably, the Nightwalkers in The Land of Dragons. We ''cannot claim'' that the heart has to be stolen by an Emblem, because we have proof positive that you can become an Emblem even if you lose your heart a different way. In fact, the time in Traverse Town doesn't even depict what kind of Heartless the guy was running from. As far as the machine is concerned, we have no reason to believe that the person has to be literally hooked up to the machine -- the same person also somehow invented a technique so that any Emblem slain by a Keyblade, no matter the world, was sent to his personal, artificial Kingdom Hearts. It's very, very easy to believe that the machine makes it so that any stolen/lost heart, no matter the world, becomes an Emblem Heartless, so there's no reason to believe "the machine" is a separate method from "hearts being stolen". | |||
::As for who can steal hearts, the Ansem Reports, KHII, and Days are all pretty clear that ''all'' Heartless steal hearts. The difference just appears to be whether they are simply siphoned darkness (and so empty on the inside), or that same darkness covering a stolen heart (and so release a heart when destroyed). Honestly, I'd wager that the reason Sora became a Shadow was because his heart went into Kairi, and was not actually inside the Shadow as we played it.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:56, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::Okay, yeah you're right. Knowing Kingdom Hearts and the things that have happened before, it's not so hard to believe that a machine could affect all hearts like that. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 22:17, 26 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
I thought of an explanation to the man in Traverse Town and the soldiers in Land of Dragons turning into Emblem Heartless. There's no proof to it, it's just something I thought of. I believe that hearts consumed by the darkness within your heart or consumed by other Purebloods, become Purebloods, and I believe that hearts created by the machine and hearts consumed by other Emblems, become Emblems. Here's my explanation to why those people we saw became Emblems: I believe that people become Emblems when another Emblem is the catalyst of their heart being consumed by darkness. For example, those soldiers in the Land of Dragons. I think that they were attacked by Emblem Heartless, which added to the darkness in their heart, which made darkness consume their heart. I think that when you're attacked by a Heartless, darkness from the Heartless gets into your heart and can affect it and if that Heartless' darkness completely consumes your heart, you become a Heartless. So, this means that those soldiers in the Land of Dragons were previously fighting some Emblem Heartless, and by doing so, darkness go into their hearts and was slowly eating away at them, and then they eventually turned into Emblem Heartless. This same thing could be applied to the man in Traverse Town who was seen turning into a Soldier Heartless. But yeah, there's no proof for this claim, but what do you think? --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 04:15, 28 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:In all honesty, like some of your other thoeries, I think it's sub-par. Though I suppose that to the eyes of others, the same is true for my thoeries. Ah well, don't let my opinion offend or deter you, keep it up! [[User:Rex Ronald Rilander|Rex Ronald Rilander]] ([[User talk:Rex Ronald Rilander|talk]]) 04:26, 28 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
::It's plausible, but we can't make that claim on the article because we simply don't know whether those soldiers were even attacked by Heartless, much less which kind they were. Hell, Scar wasn't attacked by any Heartless at all, and his darkness revived as ghosts and eventually became an Emblem. A long-dead dragon was revived by Xigbar and became an Emblem, too. Honestly, the only Pureblood that we see definitely created from a person once the machine was active is Sora, and he was using the Keyblade of heart that Riku-Ansem specifically said would draw out his darkness. We badly need to rewrite the Heartless and Heart articles to ''only'' make claims that are backed up by the canon.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 05:38, 28 February 2016 (UTC) | |||
:::Nevermind, after thinking about it, you're right. After the machine was activated, everyone becomes Emblems rather than Purebloods, and the reason Sora became a Pureblood is because his heart most likely took refuge inside of Kairi, so the darkness was not able to get to his heart and create an Emblem. The darkness was just left there to become a Pureblood instead. Makes complete sense. As for the pages, yeah they definitely need to be completely redone and sourced. --[[User:Elfdemon|Elfdemon]] ([[User talk:Elfdemon|talk]]) 09:23, 28 February 2016 (UTC) | |||