7,364
edits
Talk:Roxas: Difference between revisions
→Promotional Artwork - Older Roxas?
KrytenKoro (talk | contribs) |
|||
| Line 202: | Line 202: | ||
:::Xehanort on 2.5 cover, or Goofy-Riku and Donald-Kairi in KHUX, are absolutely fair game to be covered on the wiki, specifically in design sections, as Key Arts ''are official parts of the franchise'' (and for what it's worth, have frequently appeared within the games themselves). The design and origin sections are both ones in which we cover the topics from an ''out of universe'' viewpoint, which means including information that would not be part of the "inner truth" within the setting. | :::Xehanort on 2.5 cover, or Goofy-Riku and Donald-Kairi in KHUX, are absolutely fair game to be covered on the wiki, specifically in design sections, as Key Arts ''are official parts of the franchise'' (and for what it's worth, have frequently appeared within the games themselves). The design and origin sections are both ones in which we cover the topics from an ''out of universe'' viewpoint, which means including information that would not be part of the "inner truth" within the setting. | ||
:::As a reminder to all the recurring editors involved: long-standing wiki-policy is that information should not be placed in trivia unless absolutely necessary. If a relevant section on the article ''can'' be found, the info ''must'' be placed there. Information about the design of a character in a piece of official material falls under the Design header, ergo it is a violation of policy to move the material to the Trivia section -- as I've explained several times, including directly to the IP. Policy is also that in the event of an edit war, the article should be reverted to its ''pre''-edit war state, and that consensus should be derived based on wiki ''policies'', not on personal preferences. It's pretty troubling that this issue has even gotten to this point, as there are a multitude of wiki policies that should have been followed preventing this, and that the previous consensus discussed earlier in the article, with clear references to wiki policy by trusted users, appears to have been wholly ignored.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:37, 5 August 2019 (UTC) | :::As a reminder to all the recurring editors involved: long-standing wiki-policy is that information should not be placed in trivia unless absolutely necessary. If a relevant section on the article ''can'' be found, the info ''must'' be placed there. Information about the design of a character in a piece of official material falls under the Design header, ergo it is a violation of policy to move the material to the Trivia section -- as I've explained several times, including directly to the IP. Policy is also that in the event of an edit war, the article should be reverted to its ''pre''-edit war state, and that consensus should be derived based on wiki ''policies'', not on personal preferences. It's pretty troubling that this issue has even gotten to this point, as there are a multitude of wiki policies that should have been followed preventing this, and that the previous consensus discussed earlier in the article, with clear references to wiki policy by trusted users, appears to have been wholly ignored.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:37, 5 August 2019 (UTC) | ||
::::No policy, no matter what how old it is or how significant it may have once been, should trump the consensus reached by the community in the present day. The Kingdom Hearts Wiki is written and run by its editors and contributors, not its policies and procedures. | |||
::::Having said that, you've cited many different policies in your argument, and have explicitly called the staff out for failing to uphold them in favor of a "non-consensus-demonstrated version" of the page. So I'll bite. Your post (including your [https://www.khwiki.com/index.php?title=Talk%3ARoxas&type=revision&diff=784326&oldid=784288 previous post, which you significantly altered and removed content from], in violation of [[Help:Guide_For_New_Members#Article_Talk_Pages|site policies]]) boils down to at least four matters of policy: what qualifies as trivia, what the "Appearance" section of a character article's page covers, whether there is a policy on notability, and what the Kingdom Hearts Wiki's scope covers. I throw in here my once-a-year-or-more plug that, because many of our policies are not written down somewhere easily-findable, we ought to do something to make them more easily referenceable so that new editors can become familiar with them, rather than belittle them when they make repeated edits that violate a heretofore unfindable policy. | |||
::::'''What qualifies as trivia?''': Only the [[KHWiki:Manual of Style#Trivia|Manual of Style]] defines trivia. It is defined as "information that is not significant or vital to either the game or gameplay, does not fit in other places of the article, and is of interest to note. Examples include seemingly unintentional recurrences, real-world references, or seemingly unintentional but marked similarities between two subjects. Trivia must be true and verified; neither speculation nor opinion-based conjectures are trivia." It's also of interest, in my search today through the wiki archives (for which I'm now very dusty, thank you), that [[Forum:Wiki Improvement|you once defined trivia]] as "notable oddities and uniqueness, as well as purposeful references". Whether this artwork counts as trivia is up for debate: it is not vital or significant to either the game or gameplay, and it is odd and unique. But it could potentially fit in another place in the article, namely, the "Appearance section. | |||
::::'''What does the "Appearance" section cover?''': Again, we refer to the Manual of Style, which states: "Explain the character's physical appearance". Pretty straight forward. This would be considered describing Roxas's physical appearance in a single piece of artwork. | |||
::::'''What is the policy on notability?''': Fact is, we don't have one. ''However'', several previous discussions cite notability as a limit for coverage, including that earlier quote of yours. Fact is, though there is no official policy that limits the wiki to notability, we do in fact limit the wiki's coverage and content to notable information. I should point out that comparing the significance of a piece of art to the significance of enemy articles (the latter of which are prescribed, per the Manual of Style) is a false equivalency. That's like saying that because Sora has an article, so, too, should Sora's raft from the first game. Of note, the Manual of Style uses the terms "minor" and "insignificant" to identify items that should ''not'' have their own page. Additionally, you employ the same concept of notability in determining whether content should allow to remain on a page, as seen [https://www.khwiki.com/index.php?title=3D_Shooting&diff=745459&oldid=745427 here]. So clearly, while there's no explicit rule about notability or significance to determine coverage, the concept of such a limit is certainly employed throughout the wiki (see multiple discussions seen [https://www.khwiki.com/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=20&offset=0&ns4=1&ns5=1&ns110=1&search=notable here]) | |||
::::'''What is the scope or coverage of the wiki?''': [[KHWiki:About|The About page]] states that we "document all things related to Kingdom Hearts, from elements of storyline to gameplay." TheFifteenthMember once said we are the "most comprehensive database and [we aim] to document almost everything ''Kingdom Hearts''" the last time we officially considered our coverage. I suggested, as a result of your own feedback to updates to the Manual of Style in 2017, that we should have a discussion on "how broad we want our coverage on the wiki to be and come to a consensus on that", but we never did. Still something we ought to consider. While it certainly seems like we have a huge breadth and depth to what we cover, it's clear that there are limits on what information warrants a place on the wiki and what information does not, no matter if all of it is official or not. Previously mentioned as a limit is the concept of notability. Another limit pertinent to this discussion is the one found in the Manual of Style for Character pages, where it states that "Coverage in an article should focus on appearance in the Kingdom Hearts series." I frankly doubt that a particular artwork, no matter how official, counts as being an appearance in the ''Kingdom Hearts'' series in the spirit of this sentence. | |||
::::None of the other things you cite, like policies on edit-war procedures, viewpoints to be taken in Appearance and Origin sections, or the procedure for justifying trivia, are to be found on the Kingdom Hearts Wiki. I checked. Frankly, for all I know, you're pulling them out of your butt, but I'm sure they were part of a discussion at some point sometime ago. Again, I push my belief that we should have such policies and procedures more easily findable rather than in the memory of whoever was there at the time and is still here today, a group that is getting increasingly small. In any case, you know what is in the policies, though, aside from the ones I already cited? This: "Should exceptions occur [to the Manual of Style], these should be discussed in the article's talk page." In other words, even if your points ''were'' in the Manual of Style or some other agreed-upon consensus, the process of discussing them on the article's talk page and reaching a consensus as a community has been carried out. With the exception of your post, the decision was reached with unanimous consent. I think we've upheld the most important policies of allowing the community's voice to determine what and how a topic should be covered on this site, how this site is to be run. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 23:45, 5 August 2019 (UTC) | |||