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Talk:AntiSora (edit)

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:'''This is how he gets to Traverse Town too, that's why it's germane.'''
:'''This is how he gets to Traverse Town too, that's why it's germane.'''
Bwha? He gets to Traverse Town through a random dark corridor. Dive into the Heart is, again, an internal process and does not involve physical transportation.
Bwha? He gets to Traverse Town through a random dark corridor. Dive into the Heart is, again, an internal process and does not involve physical transportation.
::Your original argument was that it was ridiculous to believe that Sora "gets shunted to another dimension while asleep". That is ''exactly'' how he gets to Traverse Town. As for Awakening - Riku manages to do the same thing in ''Final Mix'' while Xehanort has his body, according to the interviews and Final Mix, and gets to the other side of Kingdom Hearts. ''What happens within a heart is extremely relevant to the outside world in this series.''


:'''seeing as Riku gets to Castle Oblivion in a similar sequence'''
:'''seeing as Riku gets to Castle Oblivion in a similar sequence'''
Dark corridor. Read the Ansem Reports and please stop bringing up random shit.
Dark corridor. Read the Ansem Reports and please stop bringing up random shit.
::...he is '''asleep''' and '''gets to another place'''. Please stop trying to avoid the point.


:'''They are perfectly acceptable for use as plurals for non-standard words.'''
:'''They are perfectly acceptable for use as plurals for non-standard words.'''
No, they aren't. This, like much you believe, is imagined.  
No, they aren't. This, like much you believe, is imagined.  
::[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Use_in_forming_certain_plurals]. Yes, it's being phased out, but again, this is not at all on topic, and only serves to demonstrate your jackass behavior.


:'''The Shadow Sora can be defeated, so you're wrong about that.'''
:'''The Shadow Sora can be defeated, so you're wrong about that.'''
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=294CgfCeHdU 4:57.] Shadow Sora only allows you to deplete half of his HP, and retreats into the floor. Please pay attention to the games you are playing next time.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=294CgfCeHdU 4:57.] Shadow Sora only allows you to deplete half of his HP, and retreats into the floor. Please pay attention to the games you are playing next time.
::Well, all the guides quite clearly give stats for when it is defeated, so...


:'''Because the Keyblade of People's hearts explicitly "releases the Darkness within you", not "turns you into a Heartless".'''
:'''Because the Keyblade of People's hearts explicitly "releases the Darkness within you", not "turns you into a Heartless".'''
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Do you honestly not realize your mind-numbingly literal reading of everything simply makes things more complicated and inconsistent?
Do you honestly not realize your mind-numbingly literal reading of everything simply makes things more complicated and inconsistent?
::...Was "Maleficent (Dragon)" a Pureblood Heartless, then?
"I believe that Naminé was born as a special type of Nobody when Sora attacked himself with the Keyblade, causing his and Kairi's hearts to leave their bodies simultaneously."
His heart went with Kairi,


:'''Plus, you're quote from the interview plays straight into what I was saying, so...'''
:'''Plus, you're quote from the interview plays straight into what I was saying, so...'''
No? His statement treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing, which shouldn't be if your explanation holds water. The two types are stated to be the same "other than process of birth". One being made of hearts and the other not is a pretty huge difference.
No? His statement treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing, which shouldn't be if your explanation holds water. The two types are stated to be the same "other than process of birth". One being made of hearts and the other not is a pretty huge difference.
::...he emphasizes the fact that they are born differently, and that Pureblood's don't release hearts, but later says in another interview that destroyed HEartless ''always'' release captured hearts back to the ether. It makes perfect sense in my explanation - Pureblood's are not actually hearts, while Emblem's are.


:'''...the entire bloody game and the concepts of Heartless and Nobody rest on metaphor: Nobodies aren't literally corpses, Kingdom Hearts isn't a giant pulsing cardoid; yeah, it's kind of acceptable to take metaphor literally.'''
:'''...the entire bloody game and the concepts of Heartless and Nobody rest on metaphor: Nobodies aren't literally corpses, Kingdom Hearts isn't a giant pulsing cardoid; yeah, it's kind of acceptable to take metaphor literally.'''
"What I believe to be metaphor is literal, therefore all cases of metaphor are literal!" What? You are confusing metaphor with figurative things in the real world taken literally in the Kingdom Hearts universe. Metaphors that are literal are not metaphors.
"What I believe to be metaphor is literal, therefore all cases of metaphor are literal!" What? You are confusing metaphor with figurative things in the real world taken literally in the Kingdom Hearts universe. Metaphors that are literal are not metaphors.
::...you are at the point where you are claiming entire parts of the game, ''which are replicated in the final battles as well'', as well as enemies that only appear in the Awakening (Twilight Thorn) are purely imaginary, with no effect on the outside world. Meanwhile, the games continue to emphasize the very real effects that these "in the heart" scenes have - in Castle Oblivion, they can create whole worlds, Memories can be used to make cards, items, or even people, and entire worlds can be made from hearts. Yes, I believe that the Darkside which appears where Riku disappeared could very well be the exact same thing the first one was in the Awakening - a manifestation of his darkness. Your condescending, jackass attitude does not actually serve as evidence against my interpretations, sorry.


:'''If you're going to bitch about "things being made up", you shouldn't be trying to insert your speculatory names into the article.'''
:'''If you're going to bitch about "things being made up", you shouldn't be trying to insert your speculatory names into the article.'''
...It's called a ''description'', Jesus Fucking Christ. You know, like describing Sora as "a boy wearing clown shoes"? When people do that, they do not literally mean "Boy Wearing Clown Shoes" as an actual, special, term with additional meaning. Why the fuck am I explaining this basic concept of language to you?
...It's called a ''description'', Jesus Fucking Christ. You know, like describing Sora as "a boy wearing clown shoes"? When people do that, they do not literally mean "Boy Wearing Clown Shoes" as an actual, special, term with additional meaning. Why the fuck am I explaining this basic concept of language to you?
::...and you inserted it into the article as a proper noun, with all caps, and had the page categorize it as "Category:Dark Manifestation". Again, you made up a term and tried to pass it off as an official classification. Whether this is due to dishonesty, or a complete lack of understanding for how the coding works followed by a repeated refusal to figure out how you were screwing things up...well, only you know that.


:'''But notice how all of these are not in KH1, anyway?'''
:'''But notice how all of these are not in KH1, anyway?'''
And?
And?
::My point was that you were trying to set up a new category in a game that currently had none.


:'''So, even with Riku as a pseudo-Heartless, virtually none.'''
:'''So, even with Riku as a pseudo-Heartless, virtually none.'''
You're really milking that quote for all it's worth. Skewed to the darkness != Heartless.
You're really milking that quote for all it's worth. Skewed to the darkness != Heartless.
::...it specifically says that his Dark Mode is heavily influenced by the Heartless, so yes, I would say it ''does'' equal pseudo-Heartless. If you'd like to say that Nomura just means darkness, well to do that you kind of have to equate darkness with Heartless on a basic level.


:'''However, seeing the Organization can control the Heartless, according to Saix, the Clone Sora could very well be a Heartless,'''
:'''However, seeing the Organization can control the Heartless, according to Saix, the Clone Sora could very well be a Heartless,'''
Despite being, I dunno, being an obvious reference to Vexen's manufacture of Replicas? And having no heart to be formed from?
Despite being, I dunno, being an obvious reference to Vexen's manufacture of Replicas? And having no heart to be formed from?
::So? Again, nearly ''every'' Heartless is an "obvious reference to something". The whole of Castle Oblivion was based on "obvious references to something", ''because that's how they used their powers''. And ''again'' - Pureblood Heartless are not hearts.


:'''and Shadow Roxas is quite explicitly a Nobody in disguise, not a truly original enemy.'''
:'''and Shadow Roxas is quite explicitly a Nobody in disguise, not a truly original enemy.'''
Yes, which is why it disappears in a digital fade-out, is labeled as a "miscellaneous" enemy in guides, and is not mentioned again ever.
Yes, which is why it disappears in a digital fade-out, is labeled as a "miscellaneous" enemy in guides, and is not mentioned again ever.
::I misremembered, sorry.


:'''I think it's completely fair to take the name literally.'''
:'''I think it's completely fair to take the name literally.'''
So you truly believe that the first Heartless were produced from the literal shadows of effectively dead people consigned to Hollow Bastion's basement? I should now just roll my eyes and stop this conversation with a dense brick wall, but I'm a sucker for punishment.
So you truly believe that the first Heartless were produced from the literal shadows of effectively dead people consigned to Hollow Bastion's basement? I should now just roll my eyes and stop this conversation with a dense brick wall, but I'm a sucker for punishment.
::Seeing as "Kingdom Hearts is Darkness", yes, which is a primal force in the KH universe, yes, I think the dark can quite clearly become Heartless. For example - on Destiny Islands, the Shadows form from actual darkness on the ground. There are countless sources of darkness becoming Heartless, and Heart/Heartless/Darkness is treated as essentially a basic component of the universe.


:'''Plenty of Nobodies, Heartless, etc. stay out of the journal for whatever reason.'''
:'''Plenty of Nobodies, Heartless, etc. stay out of the journal for whatever reason.'''
Name them. Beyond enemies that appear in the final battles. Enemy Gummi Ships don't count.
Name them. Beyond enemies that appear in the final battles. Enemy Gummi Ships don't count.
::Shadow Roxas, Shadow Sora, AntiSora, Glut, Cave of Wonders Guardian, Oogie's Manor, Red Armor and Sneak Army in KH1, the Absent Silhouettes (I may be wrong on those), those ball things in the alley, the fake Vivis, Chernabog, and possibly Crank Tower (though it could be considered part of Queen of Hearts). All of these should have had journal entries, since they are identifiable enemies and none of them did.


:'''For the related Shadow Roxas enemy, that became a Dusk'''
:'''For the related Shadow Roxas enemy, that became a Dusk'''
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:'''Pureblood Heartless, according to the mythology, are the manifested darkness that resides within a person's heart,'''
:'''Pureblood Heartless, according to the mythology, are the manifested darkness that resides within a person's heart,'''
Yes, using the heart as a vessel. Just like Emblems.
Yes, using the heart as a vessel. Just like Emblems.
::No, or they would have to release a heart upon their defeat, according to Nomura. All captured hearts are released to go back to their bodies.


:'''and can thus coexist with the actual person - as displayed with Guardian, Dark Thorn, the Darksides, etc. There is no precedent in the series for "darkness" to physically manifest besides as a Heartless.'''
:'''and can thus coexist with the actual person - as displayed with Guardian, Dark Thorn, the Darksides, etc. There is no precedent in the series for "darkness" to physically manifest besides as a Heartless.'''
Again, Guardian is not a being unto itself. There is nothing that says Shadow Stalker/Dark Thorn was produced from simple darkness.
Again, Guardian is not a being unto itself. There is nothing that says Shadow Stalker/Dark Thorn was produced from simple darkness.
::Xaldin doesn't specifically say anything, but it's born from a pool of darkness, and is not shown to be a captured heart or anything.


"I believe the Heartless are taking hearts. They are born from those who've lost their hearts, and thrive on hearts seized from others. The hearts taken by the Heartless become Heartless themselves." —Ansem Report 4, made before Xehanort made Emblems.
"I believe the Heartless are taking hearts. They are born from those who've lost their hearts, and thrive on hearts seized from others. The hearts taken by the Heartless become Heartless themselves." —Ansem Report 4, made before Xehanort made Emblems.
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Once again, your literal misunderstanding of what the game is saying is making you wrong. All Heartless are the manifestation of the darkness in hearts, but they aren't independent of hearts.
Once again, your literal misunderstanding of what the game is saying is making you wrong. All Heartless are the manifestation of the darkness in hearts, but they aren't independent of hearts.
::Sora's heart went with Kairi, and was not the actual Shadow. The KHII scene shows ''one heart'' landing, and four Shadows emerging from darkness, so it's safe to assume that they are not actually that heart. And again, Nomura specifically said that released hearts do not become Heartless, they go back to their bodies or wait in a Kingdom Hearts - only captured hearts become Heartless.


:'''Hook mentions nothing beyond the Heartless being in the hold, so it's fair to assume that the Shadow Sora is included.'''
:'''Hook mentions nothing beyond the Heartless being in the hold, so it's fair to assume that the Shadow Sora is included.'''
...Or he doesn't care to mention a minor enemy. Or is more aware and has more experience with the Heartless and therefore has more faith that the Heartless will manage Sora. Or you're just looking too deep into a throwaway line and taking it absolutely literally, which you always seem to have an issue with. Should I remind you of the time on Wikipedia that you absolutely insisted that Lexaeus's weapon was "Centurion"?
...Or he doesn't care to mention a minor enemy. Or is more aware and has more experience with the Heartless and therefore has more faith that the Heartless will manage Sora. Or you're just looking too deep into a throwaway line and taking it absolutely literally, which you always seem to have an issue with. Should I remind you of the time on Wikipedia that you absolutely insisted that Lexaeus's weapon was "Centurion"?
::Or he saw Riku create the monster in front of him and send it after Sora, so it's safe to assume that it would be more on his mind than the weaker Heartless.
::I'm not "taking it absolutely literally", I'm saying that the implication is there, and ''with the other evidence'', paints a convincing picture. As for the Centurion - Vexen's shield is still called "Freeze Pride", so it's safe to assume  "Centurion" changed names to fit with Lexaeus' poetically named weapon theme. If you want to turn this into a "who's been wrong before" - again, you f'd up the coding for AntiSora by placing "Dark Manifestation" there, and did it again after being reverted. Somehow, I think that's more on topic.


As for Ultimania, a story note (one of very few mentions) refers to Anti/Shadow Sora in "リクが差し向けたソラの影と戦う". "Sora's shadow". No mention of Heartless. No connection to the Heartless is ever made in any official source, which is what I've been saying the entire time. Oh, and "Guardian" is not mentioned. Ever. The closest phrase I bothered to translate is "Ansem's Shield". Everything is simply "Ansem attacks" and the like, regardless if "Guardian" is actually doing it. Kingdom Hearts fans making up something whole cloth based on specious evidence? Wouldn't be the first time!  
As for Ultimania, a story note (one of very few mentions) refers to Anti/Shadow Sora in "リクが差し向けたソラの影と戦う". "Sora's shadow". No mention of Heartless. No connection to the Heartless is ever made in any official source, which is what I've been saying the entire time. Oh, and "Guardian" is not mentioned. Ever. The closest phrase I bothered to translate is "Ansem's Shield". Everything is simply "Ansem attacks" and the like, regardless if "Guardian" is actually doing it. Kingdom Hearts fans making up something whole cloth based on specious evidence? Wouldn't be the first time! [[User:Plackers|Plackers]] 22:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
[[User:Plackers|Plackers]] 22:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
::Never mind, I reverted my individual replies to the above, because it's simply not worth it. If you really care to hear them, I can re-add them, but I doubt you will. At this point, I'm tired of dealing with your condescending, often off-topic, jackass behavior, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere. The one thing you've provided that actually serves as evidence, instead of just condescension, straw-grasping, and dismissal of the actual game, would be the Ultimania: please provide a scan of it's coverage for AntiSora (and Shadow Sora, if it is treated separately), preferably the Bestiary section coverage, though if you know of other coverage, that would be useful too. Also, please provide scans of how the bestiary treats a normal Heartless, and a Disney boss, for comparison. Otherwise, the currently available evidence points toward it being a Heartless.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 03:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
::So the clearly Heartless "Guardian" is never mentioned in the Ultimania? That might actually count against it's usefulness in categorizing things by what it does and does not mention.
::At this point, I'm tired of dealing with your condescending, often off-topic, jackass behavior, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere. The one thing you've provided that actually serves as evidence, instead of just condescension, straw-grasping, and dismissal of parts of the actual game, would be the Ultimania: please provide a scan of it's coverage for AntiSora (and Shadow Sora, if it is treated separately), preferably the Bestiary section coverage, though if you know of other coverage, that would be useful too. Also, please provide scans of how the bestiary treats a normal Heartless, and a Disney boss, for comparison. Otherwise, the currently available evidence points toward it being a Heartless.[[User:KrytenKoro|<small>Glorious</small>]] [[User_talk:KrytenKoro|<small>CHAOS!</small>]] 03:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


==Azul's Comments==
==Azul's Comments==
KrytenKoro
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