Talk:Sora's Heartless

Don't we already have Shadow Form? Glorious  CHAOS!  06:52, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thats form this is a character. --Cococrash11 07:04, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * But Shadow Form is specifically about Sora as a Shadow Heartless. This page seems to be saying that that same being is the final boss of coded, which would suggest a merge. Glorious  CHAOS!  07:26, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Shadow Form talks about how you got to play as Sora's Heartless but this one deals with biography. --Cococrash11 07:38, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * Excuse me for butting in and all, but Shadow Form is Sora as a Heartless. This is Sora's Heartless. They seem to be the same character. I don't really like the idea of having one page for the form and one for the character, not only is it somewhat redundant in my opinion, but neither page acknowledges the other one. Unrelated, but would the brief playability of Shadow Sora count Sora's Heartless as a playable character?--Otherarrow 11:51, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Sora's Heartless appear as a main atoginast the source of Bug BLock and he's a boss in coded. --Cococrash11 18:37, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * Okay, let me put it this way. If the boss of coded is in fact Sora's own Heartless, then the pages will be merged, and Sora's Heartless (Boss) probably will too. Glorious  CHAOS!  19:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Instead of Shadow Form maybe Sora's Heartless is a playable Character like Sora, Riku, and etc. He can be first played in the first game. --Cococrash11 20:07, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * ...that IS Shadow Form. That's exactly what Shadow Form is. Glorious  CHAOS!  20:13, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

So put all of the information of Shadow Form in Sora's Heartless? --Cococrash11 20:19, January 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

So when are you going to put all of Shadow Form's info in Sora's Heartless? --Cococrash11 06:22, January 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Isn't better to merge it with the Sora's Heartless boss page instead of shadow form, at least for now.Masgrande 22:28, January 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * If I recall, we have separate pages for bosses. (For example, no one suggests merging Xemnas with Xemnas (Boss)) Shadow Form, on the other hand, is the Heartless form of Sora, which has been retroactively made a separate character. Merging the main page with the boss page would be inconsistent with other pages (aside from Lingering Sediment), while not merging with Shadow Form would lead us with having two pages on the exact same thing, which is pretty redundant I'd say.--Otherarrow 00:54, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Merging
I heard there will be a discussion about Shadow Form merging into Sora's Heartless article but I didn't see anyone debating about it. --Cococrash11 01:56, January 16, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

How do you merge an article anyway? --Cococrash11 06:33, January 16, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Question about the quote
When did Soras heartless say that?I thought heartless didnt talk. Kaialone14 17:13, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

he say that in KH coded--Xabryn 18:23, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Trivia
Wheres Shadow Form's Trvia section? I thought mergeing means put all the trivia info in Sora's Heartless trvia? --Cococrash11 02:28, January 26, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * The trivia was already incorporated into the Story section.--Otherarrow 10:16, January 26, 2010 (UTC)

Playable Character
Sora's Heartless is like a temporary playable character in KHI not a form. Since he is a minor character in KHI and a major antagonist in coded. So Sora's Heartless count as a playable character. --Cococrash11 06:02, January 27, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Character
He is a character in KHI like Xehanort's Heartless. I mean we all know that Lingering Sentiment is Terra but with his soul but they are still diffrent. Sora's Heartless had Sora's Heart but covered with darkness. Its the same logic with Lingering Sentiment and Sora's Heartless. --Cococrash11 05:02, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Beside at that time in KHI when Sora created and become Sora's Heartless he was falling into darkness and Sora's Heartless took control until Kairi bring Sora back. Sora even commented to Kairi that when he falls into darkness he lost feeling, forget everything and etc. So this proves Sora's Heartless took control when Sora falls into darkness. So this proves that Sora's Heartless is a real character. --Cococrash11 05:02, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * This makes him not a Shadow how—Urutapu 20:28, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * This makes him not a Shadow how—Urutapu 20:28, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Sora's Heartless and Sora
Sora's Heartless and Sora are totally diffrent character. Kairi filled Sora's Heartless with light and the real Sora returned. Sora's Heartless just remained in Sora's Heart. --Cococrash11 01:28, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * ...but you play as the Heartless. It's clearly still you, and Axel later mentions that Sora is one of the only beings who retained human form as a Heartless. Sora is canonically a Heartless from Hollow Bastion to Twilight Town. Glorious  CHAOS!  01:37, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

You know what I don't get it. Why is Sora a pseudo Heartless I 'm sure Nomura didn't mention Sora as a pesdo Heartless? --Cococrash11 01:45, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Coccocrash11
 * Kryten, I'm fairly sure Axel simply says that he retained his memories as a Heartless. I could be wrong though. And Cococrash, I always have an unnecessarily difficult time deciphering what you say. Hint.—Urutapu 04:19, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that Sora and Sora's Heartless are diffrent character to each other simple as that. --Cococrash11 05:01, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Axel: There was a time he became a Heartless. And if one becomes a Heartless---

Larxene: They lose their minds and their feelings... They're consumed by the darkness.

Axel: Right. But not Sora. He held on to his feelings, even as a Heartless. And there's only one other man who's been able to do just that.

Okay, Axel doesn't say the human form bit.


 * Secret Ansem Report: Sora and Xehanort retained their selfhood even after becoming Heartless.
 * Secret Ansem Report: Likewise, Roxas is Sora's Nobody, but was left behind because Sora's Heartless regained human form using Kairi's heart instead of his own.

However, it does seem clear that Sora neither regained his body, or Kairi's body - some weird light thing happened, and while he has human form, he is still in essence a being of the heart only. I would say that "pseudo-Heartless" would describe that pretty well. However, there probably is some source somewhere that explains what exactly Nomura calls this thing, so if someone finds that, we need to rewrite the page again. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:35, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Look in coded it is revealed that he's a character even in KHI so please its a character not a form. --Cococrash11 06:16, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * It is a Heartless form of Sora. Glorious  CHAOS!  07:51, February 10, 2010 (UTC)

Look how about makeing it he's a character in KHI and coded. But a form for Sora throughout KHI to KHII. I mean the real Sora's Heartless appeared in KHI and coded. But Sora at that time is a pseudo Heartless from KHI to KHII. So lets mention he's a character and a form for Sora at the same time. --Cococrash11 23:49, February 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * I have absolutely no idea what you just said. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:12, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying don't change "Sora's Heartless is the Heartless of Sora" --Cococrash11 06:37, February 11, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11


 * We have to, circular definitions are not allowed. It doesn't explain anything. It's just like saying "A brain surgeon is a surgeon of the brain" - unless people do know, for example, what a surgeon is, and what a brain is, it's not going to explain anything. Similar case with this. We have to restructure the first sentence. Sulu mata  engkudu !  07:33, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Why the heck Xehanort's Heartless is an exception? Also its not just a frickin form its also a character and form. Sora's Heartless appear in KHI as a Shadow as a character and coded as a main antagonist. And your so called form appeared in KHI when Kairi bring Sora back to KHII. --Cococrash11 21:25, February 11, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Sora's Heartless is the Heartless of Sora. This sentence isn't wrong it shows that Sora's Heartless's orginal form is Sora. I mean in Xehanort's Heartless, Xemnas to Saix. Roxas, and Naimine had "Name is the "creature" of Orginal being. Theres nothing wrong with it. --Cococrash11 21:42, February 11, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * On the contrary, Cococrash. "Sora's Heartless is the Heartless of Sora" is very wrong and redundant. Common knowledge will show you that with the two words "Sora" and "Heartless", you can safely assume that the article is about Sora's Heartless.

Also, about the whole "Name is the "creature" of Original being" is correct. Your talking about two different people, not forms. Plus that sentence isn't redundant. From the point of a reader/new user reading an article, a sentence saying "Roxas is the Nobody of Sora." explains alot (even if they haven't played the series). The sentence "Sora's Heartless is the Heartless of Sora." On the other hand does explain that the article of Sora's Heartless, but is very redundant and pointless. The user could figure what the article was about just by using the words "Sora's Heartless."-- Xion 4  ever  22:32, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Does that applies to Xehanort's Heartless too? Also then why do you decided to change "Xehanort's Heartless is the Heartless of Xehanort"? --Cococrash11 22:56, February 11, 2010 (UTC) Cococrash11

I don't understand; I've read his article and have yet to find the sentence "Xehanort's Heartless is the Heartless of Xehanort."-- Xion 4  ever  23:01, February 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * @Xion:That's because it was recently changed.-- Random! to a point!  23:04, February 11, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it has been changed, and it should stay that way. Anything with circular definitions for opening sentences needs to be changed. Sulu mata  engkudu !  00:49, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Character and Form
Look Sora's Heartless is a character in KHI because he appeared as a Shadow Heartless and he's not just a form he's also a character. --Cococrash11 01:04, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Then what makes Lingering Sentiment so special? He's a character but not Sora's Heartless? I mean he's a discarded Armor. Also he can be a Pesuo Heartless form in KHI to KHII? He can be a form and a character at the same time. --Cococrash11 01:13, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11


 * The whole point about not making a character page is that there is too little to write about him as a character. If we do create the page, it'll only mean speculation. We know that in essence, it's Terra, so it should go on the Terra page for now. When we get more details with the English release, we'll see about it. Sulu mata  engkudu !  01:32, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Did you even read about Sora's Heartless as a form and a character? --Cococrash11 01:54, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * No, you made it too damn hard to decipher.—Urutapu 02:09, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

Come on its not even that hard look at this Beside at that time in KHI when Sora created and become Sora's Heartless he was falling into darkness and Sora's Heartless took control until Kairi bring Sora back. Sora even commented to Kairi that when he falls into darkness he lost feeling, forget everything and etc. So this proves Sora's Heartless took control when Sora falls into darkness. So Sora's Heartless is a real character. --Cococrash11 02:18, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

That doesn't mean Sora was 100% gone. He obviously wasn't swallowed completely by his following comment "You saved me...the darkness almost swallowed me...but then I heard a voice- your voice, you brought me back. Sora's Heartless is not a character but a branch off of Sora.-- Xion 4  ever  02:49, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

What about Xehanort's Heartless? --Cococrash11 03:09, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * Xehanort's Heartless has been swallowed, as you can see from the appearance, the Heartless symbol and the amber eyes. Yet, he maintained his willpower. Sulu mata  engkudu !  03:17, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

So has Sora's Heartless he kept his feeling and will power. Beside what about Data Sora's Heartless he's a data version and the real version appeared in KHI as a Shadow Heartless. --Cococrash11 04:51, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * Data Sora's Heartless is Sora's Heartless reproduced. Sulu mata  engkudu !  05:11, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

He is a character in KHI like Xehanort's Heartless. I mean we all know that Lingering Sentiment is Terra but with his soul but they are still diffrent. Sora's Heartless had Sora's Heart but covered with darkness. Its the same logic with Lingering Sentiment and Sora's Heartless. --Cococrash11 05:36, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

I agree with Coccrash on this one. If Sora's Heartless is such a major character in coded, then I don't see any reason why he shouldn't be counted as a character (albeit a minor one) in KHI.-- Lapis of the Night  06:19, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Except that the game makes it explicitly clear that Sora's Heartless is the Shadow you are playing as, and is continuous with the Sora you play in later games. There is no magical switcheroo, excluding the fact that Roxas was spirited away - Sora becomes a Shadow, the Shadow tracks down Kairi, Kairi gives the shadow back its original appearance. Xehanort's Heartless is, as far as we know, different, in that there is no clear continuity shown between Xehanort and Xehanort's Heartless, though it is possible that it has the same continuity (However, that's speculation). What we do explicitly know is that there is clearly shown continuity for Sora's Heartless, and that it is not a "minor character", it IS THE PLAYER CHARACTER. Glorious  CHAOS!  11:58, February 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Kryten. Sulu <font color="#00B7EB">mata  <font color="#002E63">engkudu !  12:15, February 12, 2010 (UTC)

You get to play as a Shadow Heartless it shows that you are playing as a diffrent character like Lingering Sentiment. --Cococrash11 23:20, February 12, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * But the thing is that you are shown transforming back into Sora, with nothing added but light, and the canon seems to support this. And at a technical level, a Heartless is a form of its original being. Glorious  CHAOS!  00:20, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

No when Sora's Heartless was filled with light he dissapeared and Sora returned. He's a character in coded why isn't he a character in KH1? Beside he's just like Roxas he was complete when Kairi give him light and he become whole to become Sora and Sora's Heartless just dissapeared. Also @Xion4ever Sora was about 50% gone Sora is falling to the darkness and Sora's Heartless control for a time. --Cococrash11 02:13, February 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * No, no, a thousand times no. Just because you play as the Shadow doesn't make Shadow Heartless Sora a different character altogether. He's Sora almost falling into dark tendencies, just as you and Xion say. 50% gone does not mean totally gone. Think : would you have said the same thing if you were playing the Shadow Sora of KH1 ? <font color="#6082B6">Sulu <font color="#00B7EB">mata  <font color="#002E63">engkudu !  02:16, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, yes, and a thousand time yes I would think like that. What about in Terra's story when suddenly you play Lingering Sentiment instead of Terra? Its the same concept with Sora's Heartless and LS --Cococrash11 03:39, February 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

You know what I will still debate that he's a minor character not a form in KHI. But what if Nomura said Sora's Heartless is a minor character in KHI what would you said? --Cococrash11 03:39, February 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * I would still say he is a branch of Sora. So he's Sora's Heartless. But be careful what you think : did Nomura ever explicitly state that Sora's Heartless is a minor character ? <font color="#6082B6">Sulu <font color="#00B7EB">mata  <font color="#002E63">engkudu !  04:05, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

First, lets be careful about our responses. We can express our opinions without bashing others. (just saying before something bad results).

About the whole 50% was Sora, 50% was Sora's Heartless. Thats a pitiful defense. Sora still had control over himself (evidenced in quote I listed earlier), but had taken on a new form. He was still Sora, just in the form of a Heartless. Nomura has not declared Sora's Heartless a separate character. If you believe he has, then we need acurate, trustworthy proof! Also I love how after finding defeat in one standpoint you decide to create a new problem. -_- Anyways, Sora's Heartless is just a branch of Sora. I won't waste time saying all these reasons to a headstrong user. But seriously, look at the facts.-- Xion 4  ever  04:19, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I said a frickin if!! Even if its a branch you can still call it a character just look at the nobdies Doesn't Xehanort's Heartless count as a branch of Xehanort. --Cococrash11 05:44, February 13, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * Xehanort has completely lost his heart to the darkness, you know that. Come on, admit it. Sora was almost lost. Had he been totally lost, then you could make the same distinction for Xemnas and company. But you know Sora wasn't lost to the darkness. So stop beating round the bush. <font color="#6082B6">Sulu <font color="#00B7EB">mata  <font color="#002E63">engkudu !  05:59, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

Cococrash brought this up on my talkpage as well. I agree it is a form.-- Ninja Sheik  06:29, February 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Form only, but not minor character. Like Kryten said, it's a branch of Sora. <font color="#6082B6">Sulu <font color="#00B7EB">mata  <font color="#002E63">engkudu !  06:37, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

So, this disussion it over?-- Ninja Sheik  17:53, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

I'm gonna touch on this subject again, this time I'm talking to Cococrash. Judging by your comments on both here and BebopKate's talkpages you obviously didn't understand my previous comment about words. Attempting to belittle others and such will get you nowhere, it will later result in a warning for mis-wiki conduct. Be nice, okay?

Also continuing this discussion is pointless. Theres at least five plus users here who say that Sora's Heartless is a form of Sora and doesn't deserve a separate article. Arguing this matter more will result the same way.-- Xion 4  ever  18:11, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

In my opinion...this whole thing is getting dangerously close to edit-war territory. And frankly, after getting a good night's sleep and re-reading through all the comments, I frankly still don't understand all of the arguments. Cococrash, I think you're making too much of the whole transformation issue, and you seem to think all of the characters have to follow the same rules, storywise. Sora has proven time and again to be one of the characters who has proven to be an exception to many rules, particularly because of his status as a main character. I would consider his Heartless state as a form, since Sora has many states of existance. I also have to ask at this point, do we have any official translations of coded to rely on the term "character" versus "form?"

I will be keeping a watch on this page and the article and there had better be some resolution to this very soon. Because if not, there will be pages locked and warnings handed out. 18:49, February 13, 2010 (UTC)

BOM BOM BBBOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMM!!! Sorry, I really couldn't resist that one ^_^ 18:01, February 14, 2010 (UTC) ZexionTheGamer
 * Count on me for drumbeats, Zexion. Or explosions. :P


 * Meanwhile, thanks, guys, now that this issue is settled. <font color="#6082B6">Sulu <font color="#00B7EB">mata  <font color="#002E63">engkudu !  01:45, February 15, 2010 (UTC)

Can We Clear This Up?
AAll right, let me gather everything to end this pointless circling debate once and for all. I believe, athat having considered this extensively, I can possibly shed new light on the subject. (The only time I ever played KH was a demo in 2004 in EPCOT. Thus, speculation and clarity is about all that I can provide.)

Statement 1- Sora released his heart, and was transformed into a heartless. At this point, Roxas and Namine are created. Sora is reduced to the form of a shadow heartless due to a lack of darkness, and begins to lose his conciousness to darkness.

Statement 2- Kairi restores Sora to his human form. He does not rejoin with Roxas, and thus should be considered as a full blooded heartless. He remains this way until the end of the seven days in Twilight Town, and thus can be considered to be a heartless for the duration of Chain of Memories and 358/2 days.

Statement 3- In Kingdom hearts coded, the entity of Sora's Heartless, a personality of Sora enshrouded and possesed by darkness, is one of the chief manipulators of events.

Note- (since I'm not sure as of yet how relevant this is) Vanitas, an entity of raw negative emotions, darkness personified, and an aspect of Ventus (whose heart Sora holds) has the appearance of Sora, albiet with gold eyes (the same shade of those whose hearts are tainted by darkness) and black hair (the colour black is associated with darkness.) �

From this, we can determine that Sora (who never went by anything other than his name) is a heartless, or at the very least, the dominant personality. Other entities that share the collective identity of "Sora" are Roxas, his nobody, and Sora's Heartless, his personality as it would be if it were consumed by darkness.

It isn't a question of Forms or Characters, it more a case of alternate personalities. Dragonraptyr 02:40, March 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Having said thus, Sora's Heartless should be left as it is. 02:42, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. But for everyone who argues, just consider this: What about reading an article about Multiple Personality syndrome, and applying it to Sora's situation (taking magic into account.) Dragonraptyr 02:54, March 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * The whole thing that blew it all out of proportion was the fact that there are pages for Master Xehanort, Terra, Xehanort, Xehanort's Heartless and Xemnas. And all of them are treated as separate characters. 02:57, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

I won't press thing about whether Sora's Heartless as is a character or a form. I still think he's a character. But the part about Sora being a Heartless throughout KHI to KHII doesn't make sense. I mean he regained his body by having Kairi's light. In this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVhAr5AVZ8g in 1:55 Aqua give some of her light inside Kairi. Maybe that light restored Sora to have a body in KHI to KHII. I think that make sense but the creator didn't even comment about it. So maybe we should wait for the BBS Ultima maybe it will explain things. --Cococrash11 03:06, March 10, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11


 * True, we should wait for BBS' Ultimania. But wait ; I thought it should've been out a month after BBS' release ? o.O 03:21, March 10, 2010 (UTC)

@cococrash- the thing about personalities is that they can be either or. that's why I consider Sora's heartless to be a personality. Sora isn't any less Sora, he just has alternate personalities, alternate personas, of a sort. Roxas is an aspect of Sora, but he's his own character. Smae of Xion, and Sora's Heartless. thogh, to be fair, I consider Sora's heartless to have appeared only in Coded. No matter what, Sora became a heartless, and ceased to be one when Roxas merged with him. I personally just call that Sora is the dominant persona, and he became a heartless. But that's my belief. I see things as clear cut, but other people don't see those. They see other stuff that I don't. So, To each his/her own. I will not argue. I just try to provide facts, and let people do with them as they will.

(I'm not trying to rant here, sorry if it comes off that way.) Dragonraptyr 03:33, March 10, 2010 (UTC)