Talk:Real Organization XIII

Isa
What proof do we have that this is Isa and not Saix? The fact that Lea calls him that is not all that conclusive, considering how Axel and Saix called each other by their original names in KHD. -- 19:14, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreement. We really need the Ultimania on this one. 19:44, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
 * But Lea calling him "Isa" IN THE GAME is the only evidence we have as to who he is, so I think it's only logical to put "Isa" on the list of names instead of "Saïx" with the fact tag until the Ultimania comes out. If we put "Saïx", we're speculating. He was directly called "Isa", so we should go by that instead of his appearance for the time being. At least that's what I think. EnglishJoker 20:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * We have his appearance and that Xigbar and Young Xehanort say that he and Xigbar are their original bodies with Xehanort's hearts, which is also what they were during the first Organization XIII. Their story basically denies that they are different beings than they were in the first Organization.
 * Basically, there's no reason to believe he's a different thing than when we last saw him in Days/KHII, and the way the plot puts it, he is made of the same stuff as he was before. There is nothing to indicate that Braig or Isa's hearts ever came back to them.192.249.47.177 21:01, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Going off of what the IP said, recall Ienzo tells Lea when a person's heart returns, he or she is reborn in the world he or she lost it. In the beginning of KH3D, Xehanort extracts Braig's heart in the Radiant Garden, thus Braig should have returned to Radiant Garden with the other apprentices and Lea. Isa was Lea's childhood friend and the two lived in Radiant Garden together, so it's plausible to believe he lost his heart in Radiant Garden, too (further evidence is Axel and Saïx's joining Organization XIII at the same time). But because Braig and Isa were not in the Radiant Garden when Lea and the apprentices were reborn, it can be assumed their hearts have not returned (thus they have not been reborn), and based on Ienzo's words and what I've stated above, it's not possible for either of them to have been reborn in another world, either. - 00:13, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
 * No matter what form the characters have taken, the game's credits list them as Braig and Isa. While Braig did appear in his original human form in the opening flashback, Isa's sole appearance in the game is as part of the new Organization. I'd say that's pretty concrete proof that he's considered Isa. 131.128.130.106 07:34, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

The reports in the game call him "Saix", so he's either like Braig/Xigbar or just still a Nobody 12:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, that IS a predicament. Do we take the end credit's word or the reports? maggosh 14:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
 * The reports, because those are the ones that are actually intended to be canon. The credits are, c'mon, credits guys. Mr. anons and all such, the fact that the game explicitly says that they are functionally the same being is much more important than whatever name the guy in charge of the credits decided to use. 16:27, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

To the anons: The credits didn't list Isa/Saix at all. HE DIDN'T TALK AT ALL. -- 23:27, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Merging with Organization XIII
Because these two groups are Organization XIII, I think there should be only one page about it, and create it in a way that it covers both incarnations of the Organization. EnglishJoker 21:23, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

There was actually a discussion about it here. -- 21:36, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
 * If you can set up a draft that isn't a total mindjunk, go for it and we can have another discussion. 05:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

Vanitas
Isnt it impiled that the Thirteen Xehanorts each have a piece of Vanitas' heart and The Princess' each have a piece of Ventus' heart, after all it does say that after the X-blades last destruction that the hearts with in it split into 13 and 7. --124.148.205.68 12:23, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * If that happened, then Sora wouldn't be able to wield the Keyblade, and that all 13 would be able to wield a Keyblade as the same for the Princesses. 13:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * "The last destruction" refers to the Keyblade War. maggosh 14:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Any evidence that it refers to the Keyblade war, also the 13 can wield keyblades and it is implied that the princess can, and why would Sora not get a keyblade?--203.206.0.249 08:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Also the fact that Vanitas appears beside and speaks the same words as Xehanort kind of implies it.

Vanitas does not actually appear. We don't know why his face appeared in that scene, yet, but he was not there. Anyway, the 13 and 7 do not necessarily have to be specific people; after all, the 7 in this confrontation will not be the princesses, and the 13 were intended to be the first organization, so there's no factor of "they received parts of someone's heart" besides what xehanort did, which was intentional. Plus the princesses were significant even before the χ-blade was forged by V&V. So there's no reason to think Van's heart is involved here. -- 11:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Vanitas does in fact appear, and the fact that they need hearts of pure darkness (with Vanitas' being the only one) supports that Vanitas' heart is the one being placed inside the Xehanorts, the fact that Vanitas overlays Young Xehanort back this up, though the Princess obviously do not have pieces of Ventus' heart, another piece of evidence is MF's x shaped attack, Dark Riku's bodysuit when possesed by Ansem and the fact that Vanitas appears to phase out of Master Xehanort in BBS, and also how Ansem mimics Vanitas face when Ventus-Vanitas was talking about the keyblade war.--58.7.111.194 12:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Some things:


 * 1) They do not need hearts of pure darkness, they need "thirteen darknesses". It would be really odd for them to need thirteen hearts and then rely on Nobodies.
 * 2) Vanitas does not have the only heart of pure darkness, he's just a purely dark heart that Xehanort used.
 * 3) Young Xehanort is explicitly Master Xehanort from his youth, not some mutated form. He's temporarily cast off his body so that he can time travel, but he has not stuck in Vanitas's heart or any other shenanigans.
 * 4) Riku and Young Xehanort strike the same pose when they offer their hand to Sora. That does not mean they are the same person.
 * 5) To my recollection, Vanitas phases out of Xehanort only in the special video, which is explicitly meant to be pretty animations that give only ideas for the next game, not canon. Recall that they also slayed some draconic beast and used Sora, Riku, and Mickey's Keyblades in that video.
 * 6) This talk page is not a forum. Unless you are notifying us of an explicit error that you can back up with direct evidence, you should not be posting on this page. Go to the forums, instead. 14:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Terra
Isnt it impiled that Terranort is one of the thirteen as Xehanort states that he has Terra under his control, also it seems Vanitas is a member.
 * I don't know where you're getting the idea of Vanitas - there's no proof of that. As for Terranort, it's definitely implied, but to officially name him a member would be speculation. 01:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. Besides, even then, Terranort would have to be the one in the Organization, Not Terra.

Based on the conversation between Master Xehanort and King Mickey, it seems that M.Xehanort himself confirms Terra as one of the twelve. When Mickey begins to consider the 7 Guardians of Light, he lists himself, Sora, Riku, and his "three missing friends" Terra, Aqua, and Ven. M.Xehanort then says two of that count were under his control. Obviously Sora is one of the two, as he was sitting right there, about to become #13. Mickey has a great resistance to Darkness (as is mentioned on his page on this wiki), and was obviously not among those seated, so he can be ruled out. It cannot be Riku, as Young Xehanort mentions he was meant to be the 13th, but his Heart grew too resistant so they moved on to Sora. It cannot be Ventus, as Xemnas was searching for him but could not find him in Castle Oblivion (and now, we can probably guess why he was searching). And it cannot be Aqua, as she was at this point on the beach with Ansem the Wise in the Realm of Darkness, lost to everyone's sight. It can't even secretly be Lea or Kairi, as Mickey didn't list them and M.Xehanort mentions that they are "three lights short," signifying he does not yet know that they have a 7th Keyblade. So Terra-Xehanort must be among the 13 Seekers. Lord Knight Xiron (talk) 19:21, 9 August 2012 (UTC)Lord Knight Xiron.
 * I would need to check the actual scene, but "under my control" doesn't necessarily mean or even imply "is another clone of me".
 * However, that does leave room for Kairi (and Yen Sid assumes that she has to be one of them), so it's possible. However, Terra was never going to be one of the lights, whether he's a good guy or not. 19:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He might not have been meant to be one of the Lights in the end, but he was one of the six people Mickey mentioned and were referred to in the scene. Though I guess it is true that it doesn't make him necessarily one of the 13 simply for being "under his control," it also doesn't seem very likely that he wouldn't be. At least to me.  I can see what you mean though, and I'll leave it at that until we get Nomura's word on the matter. Lord Knight Xiron (talk) 19:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)Lord Knight Xiron
 * Very likely. However, until we can get full confirmation, we can't add him to the list. -- 19:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Vanitas as a member
— Why did Xehanort and co. word things as if to try and wake Ventus who is inside Sora? Nomura: They did so in order to tempt Sora’s heart and have it fall to the darkness. In the story it also talks about how abandoning the self leads to losing the heart. When you see Vanitas (the dark half of Ventus who appeared in KHBBS) overlay Young Xehanort for a moment, that represents Ventus’ heart reacting inside Sora.

— What about Vanitas? Nomura: Vanitas is different than Xemnas and Ansem; he doesn’t necessarily have a physical form. He reacted to Ventus within Sora, so that’s how he was visible.

Nomura's interviews imply that Vanitas is a member.
 * No, they really really don't.192.249.47.177 13:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Nomura is simply saying Ven's heart has a presence within Sora, and is affecting how he sees things. 00:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Move to "True Organization XIII"
Young Xehanort refers to the reformed Organization as the true Organization XIII (真のXIII機関), as the other members assemble in the thrones. maggosh 19:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Second Riku
In Prankster's Paradise, there is a moment where Riku meets a version of himself that has the Organization XIII coat. Could it be possible that this other Riku is a member of the True Organization XIII? --Littleman 20:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
 * This is the Riku Replica, brought back to life. He is a member of the True Organization, according the the game.

Actually, that makes sense. At the time, Xehanort's Heartless had managed to hide inside of Riku when he arrived at Castle Oblivion. This gave him the essence of Xehanort. Thus, when Vexen copied Riku, he also copied Xehanort's essence along with him, thus making the seventh True Organization XIII member. However, this is just a theory, so take it as just that and nothing more. --Littleman (talk) 16:37, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

When does the game say that? Got a source?-- 23:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)


 * This is what Riku says after finding out the guy who took Pinocchio away was himself/someone looking exactly like him: "That was... my dark side. I gave in to the darkness once. And ever since, it's chased me around in one form or another. The Seeker of Darkness who stole my body... a puppet replica of the shadows in my heart... and now, I'm facing me.". It doesn't confirm anything, and there is no profile for the guy, but since he is wearing an Organization coat and disappears into a corridor of darkness, it does seem like whoever he is, he's part of the new Organization XIII, and not just the world's dream of Riku from KH1. --Wind Prism (talk) 00:22, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Black coat = Organization member? Are you kidding? maggosh 01:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that was a wrong assumption. --Wind Prism (talk) 01:29, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

For all we know, that could've been nothing more than an illusion created by Young Xehanort and/or Ansem. As soon as he shows up, he disappears without word, nor any real explanation to what that was really all about, and doesn't even appear again afterward. I wish they had actually explained it instead of just leaving us hanging like that. Blackchaos27 (talk) 08:07, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Tell me about it. This whole thing is bothering me quite a bit. --Littleman (talk) 15:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Rename
We should rename them the Thirteen Darkness, since that is what they are referred to, and we also need to make a page for the Seven Lights.--124.168.242.102

The article already mentions them being refer to the "thirteen seekers of darkness". And the seven lights refers to the seven Princesses of Heart-- 02:43, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually the 7 lights refer to the protectors of the 7 princess. --124.168.242.102 11:41, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, right. I forgot about that, but because we don't know who the protectors are, besides Riku and soon-to-be Kairi, we can't really create a page with such small information.-- 15:58, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually Mickey and Xehanort mention who the lights are, Mickey says that he, Sora, Riku, The Lost Three (probably Terra, Aqua and Ventus) and the Last One, but the Xehanort says that the Last One is on his side, the Last One is not Terra as Terra is mentioned as one of the Lost Three.--124.168.242.102 01:15, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Translations of that line seem to say different things. While some translations say that the last of the Seven Lights is on Xehanort's side, others say that the last of the Missing Three (Terra) is on his side. I think the latter translation makes more sense, because a) Terra is still possessed by Xehanort and is therefore still on his side; and b) the first translation implies that the last light, which Yen Sid says is Kairi, is on Xehanort's side- which she most certainly is not. Hopefully this will be cleared up in the English release. -- 01:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The last light cannot be Kairi as she is a princess and the lights are the protectors of the princesses, also by on his side, he meant that they were willingly on his side, Terra wasnt because Terra had his body but both Xehanort's heart and soul. Sora was because he still had his Body, Heart and Soul but Xehanort was infusining them with darkness.--124.168.242.102 01:46, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, now you're just tripping, anon. maggosh 01:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
 * What As if and Maggosh-kun are trying to say in this: It'd be better if we wait until the English it out so we avoid confusions and all the such. There's no rush, the game is coming real soon, but there can be lot of mistakes when translating, so to avoid such things, it's better if we wait, like As if said.-- 01:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

On Master Xehanort's profile, you can read Now, he has revealed his ultimate goal: to create the real Organization XIII. Should that be considered the official English name for this article? --Wind Prism (talk) 16:39, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * What was our source for "True XIII Order" in Japanese, again? 16:53, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Maggosh-kun posted a topic above that above. He said, "Young Xehanort refers to the reformed Organization as the true Organization XIII (真のXIII機関 Shin no Jūsan Kikan?), as the other members assemble in the thrones."-- 18:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * In the English version of the game, the group is actually never referred to as the "True Organization XIII". It is, however, referred to several times as the "real Organization XIII". Notice how "real" is in lower case and is clearly not a proper adjective, leading me to believe that it's not its own entity and it's just a true reformation of the original Organization XIII to match its original purpose. Thus it should probably be merged with the Organization XIII article, or renamed to "Real Organization XIII". --Key
 * Note that a) this was translated from the Japanese version of the game, and b) an article cannot start with a lower case character. maggosh 19:00, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * He didn't say it should start with a lowercase letter, he simply said that "Real" isn't an actual part of the title. That being said, I'm against a re-merge, and all for just keeping the article as is. 20:29, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * But seeing as real isn't an actual part of the title, and it's never referred to as the True Organization, we're left with the name Organization XIII. Seeing as that's the name, shouldn't it be merged with the other page? - JTD95 (talk) 20:48, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Except that if merged, we run the risk of sounding like that the two Organizations were one and the same, which is false - they are two distinct groups. Also, the merged article we had before was a mess, and getting a comprehensive cover of the plot concerning both groups - which intersect somewhat - would be a daunting task. 22:25, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd be for a re-merge, with a section perhaps titled "Second Organization XIII", "New Organization XIII", or "Real Organization XIII". I feel like that would remove the risk of thinking they're the same group. However, if that can't be done, at the very least we should change the title of this article to "Real Organization XIII". --Key
 * Dudes, just look at the layout for Organization XIII. That is not an article that could easily accept this info...though if you'd like to present a draft, that's fine. There's really no point to suggesting a merge if you haven't planned how it would actually be carried out. 06:49, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Barring the idea of a re-merge, how about simply changing the title of this article to "Real Organization XIII" to match the official title used in-game? Key

Other members
Since Vanitas appeared with Young Xehanort, is he a member? Also is the Riku replica a member, because he wears a black coat.--124.150.48.45 09:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Vanitas only appeared because Ventus's heart was reacting within Sora. Also black coat ≠ member. maggosh 11:50, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Riku and Mickey wore black coats before. But were they part of any Organization? No. ParadiseFusion15 7:07, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Thats because Riku was pretending to be an Organization member. Also why was Vanitas there, is he inside Xehanort's heart in a similar way to Ventus and Sora?--124.150.38.28 12:47, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Vanitas only appeared because Ventus's heart was reacting within Sora. maggosh 13:12, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
 * It'd be nice if anyone who is going to post on this discussion page would actually read it first - we have this question answered above already at least once. 17:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Order
I checked which thrones they where each sitting on and managed to get the all, this needs to be added to the page but I cannot add it in because its locked. --Vanitas (talk) 10:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I. Master Xehanort
 * II. Xemnas
 * III. Ansem
 * IV. Xigbar
 * V. Unknown
 * VI. Unknown
 * VII. Saïx
 * VIII. Unknown
 * IX. Unknown
 * X. Unknown
 * XI. Unknown
 * XII Young Xehanort
 * XIII. Sora
 * I agree. I think it's worth adding. Whoever's in charge of this locked page should add it. Except I think No. XIII should be labeled as either Sora (Failed), another Unknown, or [currently empty], since the attempt on Sora did fail and Xehanort may find someone else to fill the seat. Blackchaos27 (talk) 06:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Key words are "think" and "unknown". Has Nomura even verified whether they chose the seats on purpose, yet? 21:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * We are supposed to add official info to all pages and this is official info.--Vanitas (talk) 13:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC):
 * Has Nomura even verified whether they chose the seats on purpose, yet? As in, how do we know they won't sit in different seats next time they show up? Yes, we add all official info, so long as it is informative. Keeping track of the exact chair a character sits on is not exactly informative unless it has some verified purpose. 16:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Well we dont know whether or not they will sit on different chairs, but until then this should be treated as the confirmed order.
 * Except for 1) This info is quite arbitrary and serves little purpose, and 2) The chair they sit in does not necessarily translate to their exact ranking in the Organization. Frankly, it's too much of a stretch to claim that we know the rankings when all we've done is just count the chairs. Until Nomura confirms anything, we're not putting this on the page. 20:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)