Talk:Heartless

In
In the least, Pure and Artificial Heartless should be seperated.--Dreyfus 21:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

End of the World
End of the World is not an actual heartless. Also I read that Tetsuya Nomura, in a interview, called it "The nobody of worlds"--Painocus Kingdom Hearts
 * Just forget it; the 'see also' was fused with the heartless list--Painocus

Heartless, as they seek and consume hearts, also desire to return to the greatest heart, the heart of all worlds, Kingdom Hearts, that resides deep within the realm of darkness. And because of this, immense darkness, enough to completely consume the realm of light. 00:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)~we really need to do something with this sentence.. It doesn't make sense...

Heartless Song
I hate you you hate me, Lets get together and steal that key. With great bigs eyes and, a heart with me and you. Wont you say you die for me?

Hmmm...
After checking the history, I think there are three IPs/accounts that added chernabog, ice titan, and clock tower to the heartless. I wouldn't say any of them look like heartless, and the chances of 3 different people adding the same thing isn't that high.... Is it the same person? XienZo 17:30, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


 * My IP adress is always changing so...... It's possible -Azul 17:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Ansem
He's not an emblem heartless, he was turned into a heartless, he wasn't made by machine.  Myself 123  22:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Ansem's STILL not an emblem heartless!
He only wears a emblem because he made it, if that makes him a haertless, how come Hollow Bastion isn't? It has an emblem.  Myself 123  19:31, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Please see your talk page. It is made quite, quite evident throughout the game and reports that Ansem is indeed, an Emblem Heartless.
 * If by "he made it", you mean "he created the machine that puts it on Emblem Heartless", then yes. As for Hollow Bastion - who says it isn't a Heartless world? It became "Hollow" didn't it? End of the World is a Heartless World, isn't it? Though, to be clear, Hollow Bastion has the design as window framing - but does not actually have a solid emblem on it. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  19:46, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I know this is a pretty old discussion, but the dialogues of the Princesses of Heart in KH1 prove otherwise.

They're implying that the world as it is isn't entirely destroyed, and that they're doing everything in their power to prevent HB from falling to darkness. Technically, it's already fallen into darkness, so whether or not that second Keyhole is opened is immaterial. Could it have been for plot purposes, then ? 10:14, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Emblem heartless????????????????????/
Um hi there, relativly new at this but ok .....

ANY WAY! so i was just replaying kingdom hearts 1 and 2 and i realised...

When Sora arrives in the 2nd district of traverse town for the 1st time a man dies and turns into a soldier which is a EMBLEM heartless.

ALSO when u go to the palace in land of dragons, a couple of the chinese soldier people like die as well and tunr into night walkers which are EMBLEM heartless

now is it me or is kingdom hearts contradicting itself there??

I mean i thought people turned into pureblood heartless like shadows and the such...

Can some one shed some light here?

Not necessarily true. Sora had been carrying Kairi's heart inside his own; he used the Dark Keyblade, whose power was to unlock people's hearts, to release Kairi's heart, thereby sacrificing himself. Sora even said later in the game that he remembered "falling into the darkness." Both Pureblood and Emblem Heartless can consume hearts to let their numbers multiply; the reason that the Emblem Heartless appear more often than the Purebloods is something you'll have to figure out on your own. And as for the soldiers that turned into Heartless in Land of the Dragons: you have to remember that Shan-Yu, while connected to the darkness, still had a sense of mind and could strategize, like the Nobodies. It may be that he was mobilizing an ambush by ordering the Heartless to disguise themselves as soldiers, like double agents in espionage and warfare. Keyblader 20:05, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't it say in one of the ansem reports that hearts captured by emblem heartless also become emblem heartless?--74.210.24.180 21:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Pureblood Heartless vs. Emblem Heartless
Where exactly does it say that Pureblood heartless only appear in the Realm of Darkness? --Dix Princesse 17:17, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Do heartless have hearts???!!!
It says in the game that heartless do not have hearts, but how come everytime Sora defeats a heartless, a heart emerges from it and into the sky???!!!

It's not no bodies as in they don't have bodies.It's nobodies as in no one cares who they are.--74.210.24.180 21:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Names
someone has been screwing with the names on these. We need to go through and just rewrite the lists. Glorious  CHAOS!  03:26, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And a lot of it is just wrong, like "The Experiment". Glorious  CHAOS!  03:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I checked everything. Glorious  CHAOS!  01:55, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * All that's left is the three ???? from Days, and the Shadow Block, which the sites I'm using say is neither a Heartless nor Nobody - it could be something like the Undead Pirates, or simply a reoccuring obstacle, like that fruit from Deep Jungle in KH. Glorious  CHAOS!  01:56, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, the first two ???? are "Imitation Organization Member"s, so, AntiSaix and AntiRiku, or possibly Xion and Riku themselves. The third is "触手", and comes with the Parasite Grave entry, so...Parasite Grave's Tentacle? Glorious  CHAOS!  03:59, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Glorious  CHAOS!  07:22, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * 偽機関員 (Imitation Organization Member)-74 [Not AntiSaix nor AntiRiku]
 * 偽機関員 (Imitation Organization Member)-75 [Not AntiSaix nor AntiRiku]
 * 触手 (Tentacle)-62, 66 (drops Gear Parts Ver.3) [Parasite Grave mission and Carry Ghost mission]

Rewrite
The page needs to be rewritten, with much more use of citations. I've started with a rewrite of the Origin section.

The biggest thing I've had to note is that the Secret Ansem Reports are clearly lying - Ansem must have written Ansem Report 9, as it mentions information that Mickey revealed only to Ansem, but it mentions Ansem opening the door to the world's heart. While this may not actually have been Nomura's intent, it does jive with DiZ's guilty character, Xemnas calling him the source of all Heartless, and well, DiZ is somewhat of a liar. Until the end of KHII, he is completely into revenge, with no consideration of the ethics, so it's quite possible he's lying even in the report in order to blame Xehanort.

The Heartless Manufactory itself is also quite obvious, and right there in Ansem's computer room - there's no way in hell it could have been built without him noticing, as he tries to claim in the secret reports, and the reports originally claim it was made long before Mickey showed up. The Secret Ansem Report 4 even has him admit that his mind and memories are detoriating, with only his hatred sustaining him. In fact, the Secret Ansem Report 2 completely contradicts the scene we see - Ansem tries to claim that it was his own upstanding morals which caused him to cancel the experiments, before Mickey ever showed up, while in the scene we clearly see that Xehanort is still performing them with Ansem's consent until that meeting.

Therefore, unless Nomura explicitly says that Ansem is being honest when he says Xehanort wrote reports 2 through 9, then logically, Ansem wrote reports 1 through 9. The only explicitly correct source is the scene in which we see Ansem tell Xehanort to cease the experiments, and at that point Xehanort took over from Ansem, stealing his identity and exiling him soon afterwards. I think we can't trust the Secret Ansem Reports until Ansem becomes honest enough with himself to admit that he is losing himself, in Report 4. Glorious  CHAOS!  04:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Plus, the whole "Radiant Garden citizens knew Ansem was studying the Heartless" thing. Glorious  CHAOS!  06:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, to be safe, I'll change it back to Xehanort until we see what happens in Days. It's not worth doing it now, since it relies too much on argumentation. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:30, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Also, as we get screenshots from the finished dub of Days, we need to make sure we replace the links from the Japanese name to the English name. The only confirmed dub name I know of is "Artful Flyer", which I believe is "Flying Arts", but it's doubtful because (1) "Arts" was a theme name with the "Butler" and "Master" as a college degree thing (Butler, Master's, and Doctor of the Arts), and (2) I can't see the damn thing in the screenshot. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:34, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

the people of Radiant garden were aware of experiments after the fact when the heartless invaded.Xehanort the son-of-a-bitch may have been eavesdropping on the king and ansem or even had his own conversation with mickey. Xehanort didn't experiment with ansem's permission, they studied the heart but...

"Master Ansem regarding the experiment I presented the other day with your permission i'd like to proceed..." "I forbid it!Forget this talk of doors and the heart of all world's.that place must not be defiled." "But master ansem!I've been thinking..." "Xehanort, Those thoughts are best Forgotten."

And ansem knew about the "Computer Room" but the "Secret lab" where Xemnas has the "chamber of repose" (what are all those locked doors in the hallway of final mix?) was probably not known by Ansem. besides Birth by sleep is months away, we can wait to rewrite history regarding Ansem the wise until then.204.211.185.107 13:19, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * The Heartless Manufactory is not that room containing the Chamber of Repose, it is that huge room that the MCP makes all the Heartless in. There's a window to it from the computer room.
 * The fact remains that what Ansem/DiZ claimed about why he stopped the experiments clearly contradicts what we see. Ansem did not forbid the experiments until after Mickey showed up. Plus, there's no real evidence that Xehanort was eavesdropping - it pretty much looks like he just walked up with his little spiel, and it's clear he wasn't expecting Ansem to get angry.
 * In fact Mickey's appearance at this point is pretty great evidence that Ansem is being dishonest. Mickey left in response to stars winking out, and we know from KH1 (to some extent) and from the meaning behind a star going out that this means the Heartless plague had already started. The original Ansem Reports even claim that Mickey coming to Radiant Garden was impossible until the door had been opened.
 * Finally, we don't really know exactly when the Radiant Gardeners found out about the experiments, but it's indicated by Aerith and them that they knew about it before Maleficent used the Heartless against them, because at that point their world was destroyed, and who would be telling them stuff about Ansem then? The circumstances of their escape indicate that they were the only ones from their world they had seen since then (esp. Leon and Cid's story); Cloud is even suggested, with his service to Hades, to possibly have died. Glorious  CHAOS!  15:42, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Birth by sleep is only a couple months away, could we wait to rewrite history until then?68.221.247.177 12:59, November 2, 2009 (UTC)

Actually in regards to the radiant gardeners, Who had half of the reports in the first game, they could have found out about ansem's research from those(which if the second game's reports are to be believed were actually by xehanort). Also was the heartless manufactuary where the first artificial heartless were created? because in the first game it struck me as the machine in end of the world that was that and the Manufactuary as where they were Mass-Produced.also the only time heartless are seen "Manufactured" there was with the MCP, Where do all the other Emblems come from?71.54.128.73 03:01, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * They did have half of the reports, after they return to Hollow Bastion. And at that point, they explain that they now "know" that "Ansem" was a bad guy. At the beginning of the game, they didn't have any of the reports, yet they still knew Ansem had been researching the Heartless (see the quotes on Talk:Ansem Reports).
 * That machine in the End of the World is likely the original machine, though the fact that Emblem Heartless still appear in KHII indicates that there was a backup, because Sora destroyed the first one, didn't he?
 * The room must have been there before the world was destroyed, because the world was restored to its pre-Heartless state at the end of KH1.
 * "The six traitors were operating a laboratory that churned out those cursed shadows."
 * This laboratory is mentioned earlier as one that Ansem had helped build, immediately before he claims to have discovered the experiments. I suppose that he honestly could have missed seeing what was going on in there, but by the nature of the equipment there, and its use by the MCP, it's hard to believe that he missed the fact that the laboratory was designed to produce Heartless. Furthermore, there's the common sense that instrumentation of that precision would have required quite a bit of research first. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:27, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Ansem Report 7 was almost certainly written by Xehanort because of the similarity of his comment to Riku.71.54.128.73 19:57, December 22, 2009 (UTC)


 * NEVER MIND. From the revelations of BBS, it must have been Xehanort who wrote Ansem Report 5, since only a Keyblade Wielder can find the Keyholes. The completely fuck-sensical Report 9 must just be that Xehanort was already going crazy, and thought he was Ansem. Based on writing style, I guess 2, 3, and 4 must be Xehanort's as well, so DiZ isn't lying about that - Xehanort was just already completely insane the day of the Mickey-Ansem-Xehanort cutscene. Love to know why. Glorious  CHAOS!  04:29, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

From wikipedia (use only verifiable info)
Heartless (ハートレス) are hearts corrupted by darkness, lacking a body or soul, and commonly portrayed as having bright yellow eyes and dark colors. They serve as the most common type of enemy the player must face in the Kingdom Hearts games. Heartless come in a variety of types, categorized by being Pureblood or Emblem, both reproducing by taking more hearts and transforming them into Heartless. Pureblood Heartless are black shadow creatures born of pure darkness. Emblem Heartless were artificially created and are labeled with the Heartless insignia, a heart symbol with a thorny cross. The Heartless obey those with strong will. However, in worlds closer to darkness, the Heartless get stronger and become uncontrollable. They invade worlds through corridors of darkness—unpredictable pathways that interlink the many worlds.

Merging
The use of darkness, hearts, and Heartless are intricately tied together in the series, and perhaps might be served well by merging the three into a single article which covers the whole concept. However, such a merge would also be incredibly difficult, and we would need to get the three articles well sourced and written before attempting a merge (up to the level of the Origin section here). So, basically, this should be one of our main goals in cleanup - getting those three up to speed so that they can become one of our flagship articles. Glorious  CHAOS!  07:15, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

But hearts and darkness are Exetremely fundamental to the sereies Individually, and, from what i've seen, the heartless are only one of the more wretched examples of when the two come together. (and what would you call such an article anyway?)

heartless as a representation of our instincts
when you examine the heartless behaviour they appear to exemplify a personification of the id, they follow the most primitive drives, to eat and reproduce and thats all that we ever see them do. furthermore the observation that heartless are without emotion seems questionable, prehaps they experiance emotions on a lower level, things like fear, rage, and hunger --Foutlet 15:00, November 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, they're are specifically called Heartless because they reportedly don't display emotion, so there's that. Glorious  CHAOS!  19:23, November 17, 2009 (UTC)

thats what i thought at first too, however there are a few things that IMO bring the validity of this journal entry into question. first of all its the speed at wich he came to the conclusion, if i remember correctly he made the observation based on the behaviour of a single shadow, not a very reliable sample size. in additon to this, it is equally possible that the heartless is simply unable to express emotions because it lacks a body to communicate them. Granted of course one thing is certain, even if they do feel, they dont display Complex emotions, the best example of what im talking about is the deserters who avoid combat wich may be interpreted as fear, and they display something like rage when they seek out to avenge there fallen kin. this is only based on my observations, and opinouns and is not cannon in any way.--Foutlet 21:26, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Weapons
This article heavily implies that heartless are immune to standard weapons and can only be destroyed by the Keyblade and magic. If this is so, what about Goofy, Leon and everyone else who is able to quite easily destroy heartless using a standard weapon? Dartblaze 11:15, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

keyblades, and magic cast by there users, are the only weapons that can actually free the heart from the darkness, and send it off again. other weapons will only destroy there physical incarnations, wich will eventualy respawn. in other words the only way to ensure that the heartless stays dead is by using a keyblade.--Foutlet 21:29, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Ok...so any objections to me adding this bit of info? Dartblaze 07:14, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Birth by Sleep
Considering that Heartless appear in Birth by Sleep, is it still fair to say that Xehanort created them? I know that the Emblem Heartless are his creations and that they became a problem after his experiments, but what about the Pureblood Heartless? --Samoth 13:23, January 28, 2010 (UTC)

Not following chronology at all !
''The Heartless appear when Master Xehanort summoned them to fight Ventus. During this time, Aqua is in the Realm of Darkness where she encountered a pack of Darkside Heartless.''

This was taken from the text. Now, Aqua was in the Realm of Darkness after she had placed Ven's body inside CO. People... something's not quite right. ★ Joyeux Wiki versaire ! ★  00:43, February 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * I fixed it, but most of my info on these scenes with the Heartless is second-hand, coming from mostly other articles, so it might not be exact.--Otherarrow 01:16, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think this'll do for now ; any further storyline issues will be resolved in the English release. Thank you ! ^_^ ★ Joyeux Wiki versaire ! ★  11:36, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Unversed=Heartless?
What do you think?:

-Nobodies are the third enemy, (presumably) heartless the second, and unversed the first. Scene it is generally accepted that Unversed are connected to the heartless and nobodies, but it is unknown what it is. My idea is that somehow unversed where created that were not connected to Vanitas, and they were Heartless

-Now what if unversed are the second enemy, and heartless the first? Who knows what that could mean.

-(Note I know very little about the unversed or Birth by Sleep, not playing the game and all)
 * Too late, it's already been proven that the Unversed were extensions of Vanitas. But about the Unversed and the Heartless, it's possible that the Heartless are the first, and the Unversed are the second, since Vanitas only came into existence after MX forced Ven to fight several Neoshadows. ★ Joyeux Wiki versaire ! ★  01:37, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

How can we be sure that nobodies didn't existed before the Unverseds they're created with the heartless right so they should exist they just didn't show up cuz there was no reason to, they probably only appeared in KH2 cuz of Kingdom Heart--Xabryn 02:02, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Heartless are beings of pure darkness, and not all Heartless become Nobodies (Take the example of Clayton and Scar). The ones with the strongest wills formed the new threat : Xehanort and company became the first Nobodies, as evidenced in the last of KHFM's Ansem Reports. ★ Joyeux Wiki versaire ! ★  02:07, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

the report don't say anything of the first one be Xehanort and company. it just say that they don't exist in the realm but i guess that we can call they the third since they only appear after the other ones--Xabryn 02:14, February 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably so. ★ Joyeux Wiki versaire ! ★  03:03, February 7, 2010 (UTC)

Ok the heartless were the first ones the eneter the worlds BUT! were not Known of Or ever seen. The unversed were the first that showed up and appeared in the series but the heartless were the first to exist. If im wrong about this then just take it out~Marcus ;)

BBS
Nomura: As Yen Sid says in “KHII”, the Heartless cannot be separated from the darkness in people’s hearts, and have been around for a long time. Beings of darkness can draw out the darkness in the heart, so Master Xehanort could summon the Neoshadows with his own hands. In the same way, when Xehanort and Ansem the Wise’s students begin to perform the first experiments on the darkness of the heart, artificial Heartless were created in large numbers.

http://www.khplanet.com/plot-mysteries-of-birth-by-sleep-unveiled/

Deflect statistics - Kryten, please see this

 * Each attack gives different tech's, yeah. However, it's not really listed anywhere, except possibly the Ultimania's, so I don't think it would be good for the infoboxes. However, it would be perfect for the strategy sections. Glorious  CHAOS!  19:13, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'm also gathering data for the card numbers used (it's in the REC walkthrough I wrote, though I didn't gather everything yet). Should these go into the strategy too ? 00:09, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

It isn't because of the enemy it vary on attack strength like Riku(Keyblade normal attack gives around 40(don't remember the right value) and the strike raid-like gives around 75(also don't remember the right value)--Xabryn 23:59, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you can gather details for the Strike Raid attack, it'll be good. Right now, I'm focusing on Guard and normal counterattacks, and I'm going from world to world to do this, and some areas just can't be opened up... Will have to keep resetting, right up till the end if I want to make a complete list. 00:31, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

EDIT 01:02, June 11, 2010 (UTC) : If you'd like to edit this section further, please meet me at the Mensa.

Template
Regarding the new Heartless enemy template: for the Days enemies, I think we should include the mission(s) they appear in. 66.215.21.80 05:04, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...right. Glorious  CHAOS!  07:51, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

I thought it was already there ? The stats should say 358M1, 358LVL1, 358reward1 and so forth ? 11:47, June 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * *Facepalm* --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  15:46, June 11, 2010 (UTC)

Are Heartless Alive?
Okay, just to clear things up, I don't like killing. Are Heartless a shroud of darkness giving form to the metaphysical heart? Or are they seperate beings born of the hearts stolen? And what happens when you defeat them? Do they die? Or do they go to a sort of "in between place"?

198.53.83.241 05:44, July 9, 2010 (UTC)Tanglemorph198.53.83.241 05:44, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * They are born of the darkness in people's hearts, and defeated Heartless disappear. The hearts they have consumed go to Kingdom Hearts (primarily if they are Emblem Heartless). But remember the order of complete beings being greater than it all. 12:11, July 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Like TNE said, defeated Heartless turn back into loose hearts, and return to Kingdom Hearts to await their bodies being liberated from the darkness.
 * So, you can basically achieve immortality (like Xehanort did) by becoming a Heartless and Nobody, then having both be destroyed to become human again. Repeat ad nauseum. Glorious  CHAOS!  03:19, July 10, 2010 (UTC)

Heartless Silly Bandz?
Hiya! When I was at school the other day, I saw that my friend had a silly band that was shaped exactly like the heartless symbol. I ask her where she got it, and said that she got it from a friend, but she didn't know where. I would really like to find that online, as well as one for the nobody sigil, and unversed symbol, along with other kingdom hearts icons to purchse. Otherwise, I'll have to make them myself. Do any of y'all know where I can look? I've tried everywhere... RabidIzzyFan I heart marshmallow sauce! 21:39, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hot Topic. It's always at Hot Topic. Glorious  CHAOS!  23:16, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Sora's Heartles, Gummi Heartless
I can understand splitting off Ansem as "uncertain", but Sora's Heartless is 100% a Pureblood.

As for the Gummi Heartless — the KHII versions are all Emblem Heartless, and should either be merged into the list (with a (Gummi) parser after their names, maybe), or the entire section should be a subsection of the Emblem Heartless.

KHI Gummi Heartless — are the ships actually Heartless, or are they regular, inanimate ships that happen to be piloted by a dashing Shadow Heartless, maybe with a captain's uniform and a telescope? If the former, they need to be added to the list too — if the latter, that needs to be clarified in the intro. 02:46, 25 June 2011 (EDT)

Im putting Sora as a special heartless because he is able retain his selfhood even after a heartless which is kinda unique, aside from Ansem no other heartless had that ability but if you want to put him back in Pureblood Heartless it is fine to me.--Xabryn 09:16, 25 June 2011 (EDT)

Dream Drop Distance
They should havethe Dream Drop Distance image at the top since Ansem appears in DDD, also doesnt End of The World count as a heartless since it is called the Heartless of worlds.


 * 1) Sign your posts, 2) We'll put it up once we're sure of what kind of appearance it is, and 3) an analogy is not enough to qualify it as a Heartless. -- 01:41, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Well? we should put it up now since we know Ansem is a heartless.--58.7.111.194 11:11, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Removed Heartless from 358/2 Days?
I'm currently looking through the game files of KHD because I'm trying to rip Xions weapons and I found a Heartless I can't remember. It looks like a pegasus (four legs, wings, soldier face with helmet, no arms). Obviously it should appear in Olympus Coliseum, is it cutscene only or was it cut along with Hades and Megara? 22:13, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't remember anything like that, can you post a pic? 00:27, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Clayton
Tarzan states that Clayton "lost his heart"/"had no heart" so Clayton became a Heartless, kind of similar to Scar in KHII. Just because some fans do not believe it does not mean it is not true, the game outright states it. Why would Tarzan lie about Clayton losing his heart? The developers would not put a false line into the game, if they put the line their then they definitely meant that Clayton had lost his heart.--Vanitas (talk) 14:57, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Any problems? Or can I add Clayton to the page?--Vanitas (talk) 15:18, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Are you sure Clayton are a Heartless? Because before his death he look clearly scarred when the Chamaleon Heartless (don't remeber the english name) kill him, but Heartless don't have emotions, and Oogie told the Chamaleon eat his heart (or something like that) other thing, he don't have yellow eyes, but Scar when turned in Heartless don't look with any type of sentiments and his eyes are yellow.--93.150.148.56 15:58, 21 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 1. The game outright states that he lost his heart 2. Ansem does not have yellow eyes (his are amber) 3. Ansem has emotions. Since Clayton is similar to Ansem in this aspect then Clayton wold be classified nder the section of "Special Heartless".--Vanitas (talk) 04:01, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If we say that Clayton became a Heartless, then we can say the same for Shan-Yu, who gained dark powers just before his battle. But what I believed was that when Tarzan said "Clayton, lose Heart", that meant that (since Hearts here are similar to souls in other franchises) Clayton lost his "Heart" and died. He never became a Heartless, and if he did, it'll never be confirmed as Deep Jungle's been retconed out of the franchise. 05:35, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh. My. Crap. That is not what retconning is.
 * The rule of thumb in these is to assume not a Heartless unless stated otherwise. Scar is the only case where someone explicitly states that he became a Heartless. While the others clearly are influenced by and/or utilize the powers of darkness, they are not stated to be Heartless, so we do not classify them as such.
 * Frankly, if we didn't have the explicit statement, I'd prefer to say that Scar is also not a Heartless, and that he, Clayton, and Shan-Yu are all in some in-between state, in the process of losing their hearts, but not yet fully Heartless.
 * But that's not how we do here, so... yeah. Not explicit --> not a Heartless. -- 06:08, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "The rule of thumb in these is to assume not a Heartless unless stated otherwise." - what about this, I do not believe that it was ever actually stated to be a Heartless.--Vanitas (talk) 06:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * "She quickly realizes that it's not an Unversed, and like the other creatures she's been facing, it is a denizen of the Realm of Darkness". It's a Heartless, alright. You can talk about what it should be classified as on it's talk page, but it's a Heartless. 07:00, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I know that it is obviously a Heartless, it's just that Neumannz said that "The rule of thumb in these is to assume not a Heartless unless stated otherwise." and that the Unnamed Heartless was never actually stated to be a Heartless, merely a denizen of the realm of darkness. It being a denizen of the realm of darkness isnt evidence that it was a heartless either since that would mean that both Aqua and Ansem the Wise were also heartless, since they became denizens of the realm of darkness - denizen means occupant.--Vanitas (talk) 07:12, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Unlike the Disney villains we are CURRENTLY DISPUTING, the unknown Heartless legitimately displays the attributes of a pureblood Heartless. It is not relevant to this discussion. -- 07:26, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, being somewhere does not make one a "denizen". That should go without saying. -- 07:28, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * If we classify the Unnamed Heartless as a heartless because it has characteristics of one, then why do we not classify Xehanort's Guardian as a heartless, it is as Heartless-like as the Unnamed Heartless.--Vanitas (talk) 08:06, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

"I believed was that when Tarzan said "Clayton, lose Heart", that meant that (since Hearts here are similar to souls in other franchises) Clayton lost his "Heart" and died." - Tarzan actually says that Clayton has lost his heart just before fighting against him and the powerwilds, so he had not died yet. Sora says "Clayton!" and the Tarzan says "Not Clayton! lose Heart (in ape language), Not Clayton! lose Heart (in ape language)". So he did become a Heartless..--Vanitas (talk) 08:03, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ow, my head. You're not going to understand anything... 11:41, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What do you mean, you said that you believed that "Clayton lost his heart and died", but Tarzan states that Clayton has no heart before Clayton dies.--220.253.160.68 12:40, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should continue this "conversation" on a forum. 12:44, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Since I clearly cannot convince you about Clayton... What about Xehanort's Guardian, why is that not on the page?--Vanitas (talk) 12:49, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Are all creatures made of darkness considered Heartless or Unversed? I'm not the person you should be speaking to; it's KrytenKoro. If you want this to go your way, speak to him or add it to the roundtable, and I know everyone will reject it as it's silly. You're not the smartest fan here, y'know. 12:56, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * EDIT: It's not just me you should be convincing about Clayton; we've got like ten active users here. 13:02, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What are you on about? There are only two users that I have to convince on this talk page (and one I.P., though that could be either of you), the other active users have had no input so far. Also if your saying that the guardian doesn't have to be a Heartless, then neither does the unnamed heartless. I can’t believe I ever tried to help you out with the Ratchet & Clank wiki.--Vanitas (talk) 13:11, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh wow. I can't believe you guys are arguing about it like this. Vanitas: just trust the large majority of the community and leave it be. Though only two editors participating in this discussion, remember that there are a dozen more looking over it. 13:41, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay let's compare them out.
 * Clayton: Has human form and can summon heartless. You say he is like Ansem's case? No, he need to "willingly" give his heart to Darkness. I don't think screaming like that would be considered "willingly". Next, I think the "heart" that Tarzan meant is the Heart in its normal meaning, not KH's meaning. And to me, he didn't do anything beside summoning Heartless. He wasn't even shown to have power of Darkness.
 * Shan Yu: Human that can use Darkness or summon Heartless. It is not stated anywhere that he IS a heartless.
 * Ansem SoD: Is stated to have willingly given his heart to the darkness = retain human form.
 * Xehanort's guardian: Nothing has been said about this thing. Really, nothing. So just look like =/= Heartless (It can even be a part of Xehanort etc.)
 * Hunter of the Dark: It is explicitly stated that it IS a denizen of the Realm of Darkness. + the look. So it IS a Heartless
 * (Besides, if Clayton "loses" his Heart, he would be more like a Nobody, wouldn't he?) Thanks for reading and have a nice day. PS. Yeah you can come to the IRC and talk about this thing and other things so we don't have to flood the talkpages. 14:54, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

This is a really obtuse reading of that line. Not everything is literal. Pink Agaricus (talk) 16:09, 22 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Xehanort's Guardian is part of Xehanort's Heartless, which is already listed on the page. We don't list it separately for the same reason we don't list the Pirate's ship-body separately from its pirate-body.
 * The Unnamed Heartless fits all the characteristics we have explicitly been told of a Pureblood Heartless. In regards to Clayton, we are explicitly told that Ansem and Sora, pre CoM, are the only Heartless to have regained human shape, so nothing human-shaped in KH is a Heartless, no matter what.
 * Shan Yu got his power of darkness from Xigbar, according to the manga, and fits neither the characteristics of a Pureblood nor an Emblem when he is defeated.
 * The Deep Jungle epilogue by Tarzan is clearly telling Sora not to push his friends away because he will lose his metaphorical heart, making it more along the lines of the chain of memories formulation of the heart, not the physical entity that, when removed, turns your body into a Nobody.
 * Heartless are the actual hearts, so if Clayton had actually lost his heart, he would not be channeling the powers of darkness like that. 01:36, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Xehanort's Guardian isen't part of Ansem, because he was summoned by Xehanort-Terra too in BbS and he was human and by Riku too when he take the Ansem's form (but he was ever human in Ansem's form), Xehanort have the power of summon Heartless in BbS too (in a flashback we can see he training Ven with Neoshadow) so why Xehanort's Guardian can't be a Heartless? I mean Hunter of the Dark was classified as a Heartless but Xehanort's Guardian not, the only proof of both of this are only they physical aspect very similar to Heartless, but only one is listed, why?--93.150.148.56 05:14, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hunter of the Dark is a musical track, not a character. Please stop getting them confused.
 * The guardian still appeared after Xehanort separated his heart, and reappears in KH1 as part of Ansem. To my knowledge, no piece of fiction has ever claimed that they are not the same entity. And if you read what I said, I said the guardian was already listed as a Heartless as part of Ansem SoD. 05:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I ever called the Heartless of BBS Hunter of the Dark, because is the only thing more likly how a name for him, and probabily the name of track is ispirated for the name of Heartless, but we cannot be sure 100% (but don't exist a BFM guide who can confirm at 100% is name?) for Xehanort's Guardian is a separate creature, he can separate from Ansem/Xehanort for attack Sora in KH1, use the attack of the shockwave in KH1, BBS and CoM and in BBS he attack separatly by Aqua, he appera with Ansem, Xehanort and Riku, but is a separate characters, will be the same thing of say "Chip and Dale are ever togheter but in the Disney Town, Disney Castle ecc... they are listed how separete characters.--2.40.142.25 09:54, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, thanks to those above users who contributed, I get now that Clayton cannot be a Heartless, since It was stated that only Sora and Ansem retained human form, so I guess this is done, instead of discussing Xehanort's Guardian here we should discuss it on Talk:Xehanort's Guardian, and in the case of Oogie's Manor, there is a section below this one on that.--Vanitas (talk) 10:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Oogie's Manor and other possible Heartless
Oogie's Manor can also be classified as a Heartless, the reason why is because it was created and is controlled by Shadow Globs - which are a type of Heartless. It is said to have been made from Oogie's darkness - which manifests as Shadow Globs (a type of pureblood heartless). Also the manor can summon Heartless, something which the original Oogie could not do since he did not have a proper heart. Also on the bottom door of the boss there appears to be an old looking Heartless Emblem which was not their previously.--Vanitas (talk) 04:45, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

I think is can be considered as an Heartless, same thing to Experiment, because when you paused the game is write "Destroy the artificial HEARTLESS of Dr. Finkelstein" or something like that and the TCG of Experiment he was classified Heartless (I see the image one year leater in ebay, I don't if the image is disponible now), the Hostile Program too have an apear very similar to Heartless, but this one I don't sure, for Scar's Ghost is not a "maturation" of Scar's Heartless or something like that? Donald (or Goofy I don't remember) told he apear like a Heartless)--2.40.142.25 11:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * An image that shows the Experiment in the TCG would probably help this argument, but the Experiment does not release a heart upon defeat, then again I guess it wasn't made from a heart and could be a pureblood-type, but it is not in the heartless section of the journal. Since it is referrd to as a Heartless it should at least get a brief mention on the page somewhere at minimum.--Vanitas (talk) 11:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * There is no evidence that the Hostile Program is a Heartless, it is never referred to as such, is not in the heartless section of the journal, and does not posses an emblem/release a heart.--Vanitas (talk) 11:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a program. With the exceptions of Tron and (possibly) Quorra, programs don't have hearts. 11:57, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I found the card of Experiment in this list :) he was classified how Heartless http://www.destinyislands.com/kh-tcg/endless-darkness/ --2.40.142.25 12:12, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay well that's something we can act on. Also a note for anyone who will claim that it is incorrect because Maleficent, Oogie ETC are also classified as Heartless, look at the Symbol on the Experiment's card - it is a Heartless emblem just like on all of the other heartless cards, Maleficent and the other villains do not possess this logo they instead have a villain logo (logo is located at the POW area)--Vanitas (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Yeah the not Heartless/Nobody villain have a black flame in the symbol, but Experiment have the Heartless emblem, so this is the proof :)--2.40.142.25 13:15, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ...does the TCG even count? It's a card game (merchandise), not the actual video game/Ultimania (which are official canon). Ultima Spark   (talk)  Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png 15:54, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

The description in Pause already told he was an artificial Heartless, the card too confirm this, so we have 2 proof of the fact he was a Heartless, artificial but ever a Heartless, like Xion and Riku Replica are artificial Nobody (and here they are listed how Nobody), so The Experiment are an artificial Heartless--2.40.142.25 16:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I see it as more of an artificial Nobody, as it lacks a Heart. And despite being a TCG collector myself (I got my first deck yesterday), I don't consider the cards as canon. 17:23, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

But the description in the pause too say "Artificial Heartless" so is not only the card--2.40.142.25 17:34, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * 1: the cards have a fuckton of errors, we aren't citing them. 2: artificial means something, and 3: there's more to being a heartless than just acting like you lack a heart, and the experiment doesn't qualify. Scar himself is an edge case because he's undergoing the process of becoming a heartless, just like beast or sora. The groundshaker is the heartless, and id honestly argue that scar should be removed considering how the manga clarifies what pete is doing.107.35.129.24 18:00, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

When were the Shadow Globs ever stated to be Heartless? Pink Agaricus (talk) 18:37, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Days, but Oogie summons Heartless when you first fight him as well, and he doesn't fit any of the characteristics of a Heartless (no heart released, etc.).
 * In general: Heartless are either Purebloods (made from darkness, not hearts, and thus wouldn't represent a specific character) or Emblems (made from hearts, and thus (1) have the emblem and (2) release a heart once slain). Not all beings that are independent hearts are Heartless, and certainly no beings with a body but not a heart are Heartless. For Disney characters that are flouting what canon defines as a Heartless, we should only be counting them as Heartless if there is non-incidental, explicit definition of them as a Heartless...and I would argue that Pete's description of Scar, given what the manga shows is his modus operandi, should merely be interpreted as Scar passing the point of no return, not him finally reaching a true Heartless state. Honestly, I'd choose to regard them as full-fledged errors if I could, since they make a mess of the system. 23:47, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Where in Days (re: Shadow Globs)? Purebloods are also made up of hearts. Sora was a Pureblood, and the hearts that fell out of Xemnas's Kingdom Hearts turned into Shadows. Pink Agaricus (talk) 00:13, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Shadow Globs are referred to as Heartless in the journal section of Days. Most Purebloods are not shown to be made out of hearts - for example, destroying a Soldier causes a heart to be released, while destroying a Shadow does not.--Vanitas (talk) 10:20, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Shadow Globs are only referred to as "dark masses". Emblems release hearts for a reason; we don't know that reason, but it's likely to do with Xehanort. You are the one assuming that those two points are related. Pink Agaricus (talk) 16:58, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

Now about the Experiment, let's look at it like this: by comparing it with Scar Therefore, I believe that the Experiment should be treated as a Special Heartless because it is artificial and cannot really be classified as a Pureblood or an Emblem due to this.--Vanitas (talk) 10:23, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Scar - is stated in game to be a Heartless, but is not in the Heartless section of the Journal
 * Experiment - is stated in game to be a Heartless, is stated in the TCG to be a Heartless, but is not in the Heartless section of the journal.
 * Emblem Heartless are hearts; they release hearts when slain. Pureblood Heartless are reflections of the darkness in the hearts of the living; the TWTNW scene is weird, but it is most likely they were attracted by the hearts, rather than being created from them. Shadow Globs are explicitly Heartless.
 * The card game is not acceptable as a source for this, it has a ton of typos.
 * The game calls The Experiment an artificial Heartless, just like the Doctor made an artificial heart in the first game, and it fits none of the defining characteristics of being a Heartless. Whether you accept that "artificial" means "not real" or you just write off the battle-description blurb as an error (since they frequently name the enemies incorrectly, like "Vanitas's Lingering Sentiment"), do whatever. It doesn't qualify. And as I've said several times: that form when a character is doused in darkness, that's Pete trying to corrupt them with darkness so that they become a Heartless. He does it to Hercules, and Xaldin does it to Beast. I really, really think that shouldn't be interpreted as Scar actually being a Heartless, as he clearly doesn't fit any of the canon characteristics of being an Emblem Heartless (which he would have to become) until his spirit is reborn as the Groundshaker, and the very idea of Scar, of all people, reaching that special strength of heart that the franchise glorifies in Ansem and Sora (and yet never mentions Scar having had), is silly. Honestly, it should be interpreted as him reaching the point where he "definitely would become a Heartless now"; Days specifically outlines the defining characteristics of the Heartless and we should be very critical of any purported examples that defy those requirements. 17:32, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * How about this, there are some characters who may or may not be Heartless - we have been disputing them. So how about we add a new section for them, called something like Other or Possible Heartless, in this section we could have the disputed characters (so Clayton, Experiment, Oogie's Manor, and Scar) and the section would explain why they are sometimes considered Heartless (e.g. The section would mention that Scar is sometimes though to be a Heartless because he was called one by Pete).--Vanitas (talk) 08:47, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, this is not the fanon wiki. 04:17, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I dint suggest it is fanon, the characters on this section each have evidence for and against being a Heartless, and are deserving of their own section.--220.253.160.68 09:50, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * What you're suggesting we do is turn the Heartless article into a fanon page. We're not going to do that. The series is clear on what makes a Heartless a Heartless, and honestly, your commitment to ignoring those definitions doesn't mean the wiki should as well. 16:19, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Anti-Riku and Anti-Saix
Anti-Riku and Anti-Saix fit the descritpions of a pureblood, and their is no evidence that they are enetelchy/Nobody. As I have stated. If the Unnamed Heartless gets to be a Heartless because of it's appearance, then this rule applies to similar beings.--Vanitas (talk) 14:24, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter, these two don't officially exist in the game's canon (like the rest of the multiplayer part) which is why they're not even listed as separate entities by the Ultimania or the Bradygames guide and therefore should be categorized as the original bosses: Nobody for Saïx and Other for Riku. --77.12.234.210 15:00, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Purebloods are a certain type of thing. There is more to it than appearance, and the article already explains what those things are. AntiSaix and AntiRiku are merely recolors of Saix and Riku for use in a multiplayer game mode. 16:17, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Pot Spider/Scorpion and Barrel Spider
They release hearts but do not possess emblems, how should they be classed?--Vanitas (talk) 09:22, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Two things: Pureblood heartless never released hearts in the series and if it's a pureblood it's sometimes mentioned in the journal entry. They probably don't possess an emblem (on the outside) because they use mimicry, on the other hand the Spiderchest Unversed had one when exposed. I think we should go with the heart releasing thing. --77.185.115.1 11:52, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure they have the emblem on the bottom, but either way, they have emblems when they combine into Pot Centipede. 15:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Ansem (Second form) or Guardian Ansem?
Are you sure is name is Ansem (Second form)? Because is not realy a form of Ansem, but a fusion between Ansem and Xehanort's Guardian, in Italy he called Guardiano Ansem (Guardian Ansem)--2.40.156.174 07:37, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Where in the game is he called Guardio Ansem, the only reason second form is used is because we do not know any official name. If he is actually called Guardian Ansem somewhere in the Italiian version of DDD, then we could use it here.--220.253.160.68 09:36, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The Bradygames guide simply calls it Ansem (Version 2), which sounds like a bad translation. --77.186.171.4 10:07, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I see this name in a guide of my friend of DDD--2.40.156.174 10:28, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ansem (Second form) is the name used in the Ultimania, to my recollection. 14:03, 29 September 2013 (UTC)