Talk:Soul Eater

I'm under the impression that this should be merged with Way to the Dawn. Thoughts?--N/A
 * mmm... do we have factual proves that they are the same? Pablo618 02:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure, I think I red one comment's link in the Way of The Dawn discussion page saying that Soul Eater changed into TWTTD in KH2. O_o--N/A
 * I don't remember that :S let's keep it how it is then Pablo618 02:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems possible though, given their physical similarities. --Hecko X 13:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Setup
'Cause this weapon isn't usable in KHI, do we need the KH's weapon box? And because it's not a Keyblade, do we need the Keyblade navigation template? OtO con^_- 00:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No on both accounts. --Hecko X 06:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Ansem's(KH1) Halberd
In KH1 when you fight (What's his real name?) his weapon is a double bladed version of the soul eater, and could be an evolved form, or two soul eaters bound at the hilt, should that weapon be in this article or have it's own, drasticly short page?

his name is Xehanort's heartless, and yeah its the same thing

This has been discused before. In the credits he is called Ansem, Seeker of Darkness. He IS Xehanort's Heartless, and is called that, however that is what he IS not his Name. IF we used this logic we would have to call Xemnas Xehanort's Nobody. --Evnyofdeath 01:39, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Tabs
Again, what happened to the tabs ? Strangely, they seemed to work for Kingdom Key D.  TNÉ  En avant Bravo ! 07:32, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

BBS
I removed the passage from the page, since it took two paragraphs to literally say "this is speculation" over and over. This one line seems important, though. Glorious  CHAOS!  02:24, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Though later confirmed in one of Nomura's interviews that the scene with The Way to the Dawn in BBS was nothing more than a teaser and is not actually canon to the storyline.

Cleanup

 * 1) How are we going to do the picture? When the infoboxes are fixed up, they will take its place and be using the Days sprite. Do we want to use the current picture somewhere else in the article, or just rely on the sprites?
 * 2) Does anyone have any source for where Riku got the Soul Eater? We used to claim that Maleficent gave it to him, but the game script only has her giving him powers a while after he first uses the weapon, and it's the Heartless-control and Dark Mode suit. I mean, it's a fair assumption, but I don't think we should be outright claiming it without proof. Glorious  CHAOS!  20:52, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say we utilize the image in a gallery, like "Soul Eater Concept Art" or something. As for the source, there really ISN'T one, at least any official one. Riku didn't just randomly get a sword like that, as Sora got the Keyblade. It was a weapon made of the darkness from either Ansem upon his first encounter in hooded form with Riku, or from Maleficent when he first showed up in Hallow Bastion, as seen in the Manga, for him to weild, hence it is summoned in a cloud of dark energy, hence he only first had it after Maleficent first began to brainwash him. Riku did earn Heartless control from the witch, but it was "ANSEM" who first gave him the Dark Mode suit, not Maleficent. - EternalNothingnessXIII 21:01, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, she gave him something right after Hook is defeated:
 * Maleficent: Yes, the untapped power that lies within you. Now, child, it’s time you awakened that power and realized your full potential.
 * And he used the suit in the first battle against him at Hollow Bastion, which I believe was before the Ansem scene. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:22, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

But she didn't give it to him. She was merely encouraging Riku to open his heart and surrender it to the dark. He actually wore the suit because the darkness in his heart had consumed him. It says so in the Journal. - EternalNothingnessXIII 21:25, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, fair enough. The point is, the Soul Eater appears at the Traverse Town meeting, and we don't see Maleficent giving/awakening anything until after Monstro. In COM, it is revealed she gave him a bedroom too, but we never actually have anyone say she made the Soul Eater for him. So, we don't know that Maleficent gave it to him, even if it's reasonable. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:37, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point. But what do we say? We can't just leave it as "he randomly winds up with a sword"... - EternalNothingnessXIII 21:42, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, we can, kind of. Something like "Riku obtains the Soul Eater at some point after arriving at Hollow Bastion." Glorious  CHAOS!  21:55, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Ugh... I don't like it. Too general. How about "After losing the Keyblade to Sora via his choice to side with darkness, Riku was instead presented with the Soul Eater. He continued to utilize the blade since his arrival in Hallow Bastion after the destruction of Destiny Islands."
 * This makes the most sense, to me, at least, as he only has a toy sword on the islands before their destruction, and he has it in Traverse Town, which is after his arrival at Hallow Bastion, where he's first teleported on the Islands. Perfectly illustrated in the Manga. - EternalNothingnessXIII 21:58, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * That seems to me to imply that he got it at Destiny Islands as a sort of "dark Kingdom Key", which is a bit more speculation than I think is appropriate.
 * Could we get another opinion on this? Glorious  CHAOS!  22:45, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Opinions not needed. Rephrasing is. Taking what I put, why not tone it down on said "speculation"... Nothing like what you had past said, though, as that was as good as "Mickey is short." True, but very bland to the mind. My version at least gives a bit more OFFICIAL background of the weapon. Besides... only a truly inquisitive non-dense person would think to question that style of writing. Few people, while NOT dense, would think about it that way. This is where an opinion on how to removie speculation from MY version would be needed... - EternalNothingnessXIII 23:17, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Soul Eater in BbS Trailer
I noticed this earlier... check out the Birth By Sleep trailer wherein Ventus falls through the Station of Awakening flooring. It's already been noted that the Kingdom Key is with him, but look to the right of it, Soul Eater is there alongside it.

Hmm, good eye! Never noticed that before. ^^-- Xion 4  ever  16:45, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

why every time someone puts on the page that the Soul eater appears on Ven's awakening the information is removed? --Xabryn 17:30, December 31, 2009 (UTC)
 * No need to get offensive, remember at the bottom of the page it clearly says "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here." 

Secondly, thats a nice addition, but until it's proven, lets leave it out. We need a nice, confirmed, clear screenshot or image. Find that, show it here and it'll be restored.-- Xion 4  ever  17:33, December 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * One, because there is still disagreement on whether that is Soul Eater, Way to the Dawn, or something else; Two, because if it is actually the Soul Eater, it is obviously story material rather than trivia; Three, because if it is story material, we need to wait until the game is released to figure out what it actually means.


 * Any information "discovered" within the trailers is largely unusable, due to the inability to make sense of it - it's there to get us excited about the game, not to tell us what the entire plot is. Trailer information should remain within the summary of the trailer on the BBS page, and only information obtained from interviews or articles should be used. Glorious  CHAOS!  17:37, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

My intention was not to be offensive, sorry if it seemed. Anyway thanks for answering.--Xabryn 18:45, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Not. A. Keyblade.

 * Days refers to Riku's weapon-type as a sword, meaning it is ALSO calling the Oblivion and Way to the Dawn swords. Nomura says that the Soul Eater is an intermediary for a Keyblade (not as "not a Keyblade", but as in "halfway to a true one"). Mobile says it is a Keyblade. It releases hearts in the same way a Keyblade does. It lacks the keychain, but otherwise, has the same things other Keyblades (Way to the Dawn, Aubade) do. There are several more sources saying it is some kind of Keyblade than there are swords, and the one saying it is a sword also calls canonical Keyblades swords.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  02:36, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

As we've seen from the Keyblade of People's Hearts, the LS's Ends of the Earth, and the Keyblades in the Keyblade Graveyard, not having a Keychain does not stop something from being a Keyblade.02:48, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yes Kryten, in Days it DOES release Hearts. Gray Hearts. Ya know what else releases Gray hearts? Every other weapon in the game besides the Keyblade. --Evnyofdeath 03:17, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) It releases pink hearts in CoM, just like the Keyblade. I believe it releases pink hearts in Days, too, but I haven't checked recently.
 * 2) The fact that others don't have these attributes means they are common threads, not requirements.
 * 3) Days calls Oblivion and Way to the Dawn swords, as well, and calls the Dream Sword a Keyblade. That generalization is absolutely inapplicable to this discussion.
 * 4) It is the main plot of Days, and why they created Xion, that only Keyblades can release hearts from the samsara of Kingdom Hearts. Marluxia says it, at the beginning. Beings of darkness may steal hearts, but they are also lost to Kingdom Hearts (that's what the Heartless do).
 * 5) Categories such as this are not exclusive. We could have a category for "KH2 swords" and "KH2 Keyblades", if both were true. We DO categorize Oblivion and Way to the Dawn as Swords, due to this, and Dream Sword as a Keyblade. However, they are also something else, so we provide those categories as well. We have several sources saying this is a type of Keyblade - ergo, it gets the categories.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:10, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

All the Heartless seen in CoM are created from Memories, thus are not real. In Days No matter what weapon Riku is wielding if he slays an Emblem Heartless it releases a Gray Heart. If you kill a Heartless as any character besides Roxas, Xion, or Sora it releases a Gray Heart because the released Heart was not collected. --Evnyofdeath 06:14, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, we had this discussion about a year ago, and you're very wrong about the grey hearts - Talk:List_of_Keyblade_Wielders. Riku consistently releases pink hearts.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:17, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, my fav character to play as in Days is Riku, and I've clearly seen Gray Hearts released whenever I kill an E.Heartless as him. Alternatively, for CoM at least, it may have just been a game mechanic. --Evnyofdeath 06:18, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * - pink hearts.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:20, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * - pink hearts, with no other possible Keyblade anywhere near anything.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:21, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright fair enough, but to keep the wiki grounded in fact, I personally think a source in CANON (not including Mobil) stating SE is a Keyblade should be found. --Evnyofdeath 06:23, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * The pink hearts. That's enough.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:33, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, Nomura says that the Soul Eater transformed into the Way to the Dawn, which is also a thing. It is literally a form of his Keyblade.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:35, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe. I said in that other discussion that Days distinguishes between characters, not weapons (hence Dream Sword releasing hearts), and it wouldn't have made much sense for ReCOM to have had even that distinctions... but on the other hand, considering what we know about Soul Eater, I wouldn't be against calling it a "proto-Keyblade" (...or a "larva Keyblade", maybe? 9_9). -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  06:35, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * It does it in KH2 as well, but the "proto Keyblade" thing is the revision I've been trying to pass through (, though it could be worded better). For categorization purposes, however, it is sufficient to just call it a "Keyblade", I think, especially considering that at least one source outright says it is.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:40, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't it already decided that SE simply acted as a medium for WttD to take form? --Evnyofdeath 06:36, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * "However there is no particular explanation for the Soul Eater's transfer and occurrence, as well as Riku's handing it to Kairi." is one quote. The Soul Eater literally changed into the Way to the Dawn.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:40, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm still waiting for an explanation for Riku suddenly having a second Keyblade to give to Kairi. It annoys me.

Where in KH2, again, with the pink hearts? -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  06:43, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

So it became a keyblade? is that what youre saying Kryten? it wasnt one before, it bacame one? I can live with that--ShadowsTwilight 06:46, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. Soul Eater itself is NOT a Keyblade, however after reaching a balance, it BECAME one. --Evnyofdeath 06:50, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * What I am saying is that it is, quite literally, a form of Riku's Keyblade. It became a true Keyblade, but even then the Way to the Dawn is still Riku's Soul Eater, like he says.
 * In KH2, Land of Dragons I believe.

(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  12:54, October 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * So the only time that it's a keyblade is when it is WttD, which we have a separate page for, which means that as Soul Eater, it is not a Keyblade --ShadowsTwilight 15:07, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...no. It functions as a Keyblade in all appearances, and is called a Keyblade in at least one official source, as well as a proto-Keyblade in several others. We count X-Blade and Keyblade of Hearts as Keyblades for these purposes, even though they are incomplete and not the same type of thing as the "normal" Keyblades. It becomes "complete" as the Way to the Dawn, but is still a sort of Keyblade in its original form.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  15:46, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tell me, aside from releasing hearts from heartless, which was never proven to be a keyblade exclusive ability, what Keyblade functions has Soul Eater ever displayed --ShadowsTwilight 15:56, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I don't think releasing pink hearts means its a Keyblade. If it does, that means Goofy's shield, Donald's Stave, Leon's Gunblade, Cloud's sword, and Tifa's HANDS are Keyblades. --Evnyofdeath 16:15, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * ARG


 * 1) Marluxia says, absolutely, that only Keyblades release pink hearts. Those other weapons weren't actually releasing hearts - because they were near an active Keyblade, they damaged the Heartless enough, and the Keyblade was still responsible for the hearts. As I pointed out earlier, the Soul Eater can do this without any other possible Keyblade being responsible for the pink hearts.
 * 2) It allows Riku to see Keyholes (see Agrabah), which Nomura said absolutely only Keyblades can do; even Keyblade wielders can't see Keyholes on their own (see Xehanort at Hollow Bastion question in Ultimania).(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  16:25, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoever said Riku saw Hollow Bastion's Keyhole? Also, at the point he saw Destiny Island's Keyhole, he didn't even have SE. EDIT: Also, what about that scene where Cloud and Leon are fighting the heartless by themselves? Pink Hearts. --Evnyofdeath 16:27, October 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) I said Agrabah, not Hollow Bastion. Though, of course he saw Hollow Bastion's, he made it.
 * 2) Then either Sora or Mickey was nearby, or one of them has a damn Keyblade. The games and Nomura explicitly state that only Keyblades can do this, I'm getting really tired of you guys acting like it's something I made up.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  16:33, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

And we're tired of you ignoring our points altogether. Again, Riku saw Destiny Islands Keyhole without the Keyblade or Soul Eater. Please explain this --ShadowsTwilight 16:35, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did, already, but I'll repeat: "NOMURA F*CKING SAID YOU CAN ONLY DO THAT WITH A KEYBLADE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TAKE IT UP WITH HIM. THIS IN NO WAY INVALIDATES SEVERAL SOURCES EXPLICITLY STATING THE SOUL EATER TO BE A KEYBLADE."
 * And which of your points am I allegedly ignoring? Keep in mind that "Not giving you the answer you want" does not equal "ignoring your question." I, for one, am annoyed at the fact that you guys are wasting your time attacking the series canon for not making sense, which is a foolish exercise.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  17:26, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Here, I'll go ahead and list what I see as the points you two have claimed in this section:


 * "Days refers to Riku's Weapon as a sword" - replied that it also considers Oblivion and Way to the Dawn to be swords, and Dream Sword to be a Keyblade.
 * "Riku was envious of Sora for wielding a Keyblade, yet if he was already wielding one, what would he have to be envious of?" - barely a cohesive point, but I may not have addressed it here - the plot doesn't make sense, as we've all said. That doesn't change the fact that the Soul Eater is said to be a type of Keyblade.
 * "Nomura said that Soul Eater was a intermediary for the Way to the Dawn, meaning that it used the Soul Eater to become a Keyblade, meaning that before it was Way to the Dawn, it was not a Keyblade." - absolutely illogical reasoning, which I've addressed in several ways. For instance, the Kingdom Key is an intermediary for the Omega Weapon, since Roxas's Omega Weapon is a transformation of the Kingdom Key.
 * "It also shares absolutely no physical attributes with a Keyblade, lacking the teeth, handguard, and keychain" - addressed by both me and Lapis, in that there are other Keyblades lacking these things.
 * "Yes Kryten, in Days it DOES release Hearts. Gray Hearts. Ya know what else releases Gray hearts? Every other weapon in the game besides the Keyblade" - Absolutely false, and I've provided multiple videos to prove it wrong.
 * "The Days weapon labelization refers to their default weapon mostly, otherwise it would mean that dream sword was a keyblade, which it clearly is not." - This assumption is pure speculation, and the Dream Sword is a similar discussion to this one. Regardless, Riku only uses Oblivion within the actual plot of Days, not Soul Eater.
 * "Being 'halfway to a keyblade' or 'a proto-keyblade' does not make it a full-fledged keyblade." - No one has said it did, and that detail also applies to the X-Blade and the Keyblade of People's Hearts, as I said before.
 * "How many lack all 3? how about none." - Begging the question, and a misunderstanding of how categorization works in the real world. For further clarification of my earlier rebuttal, in determining species and so on, you pick absolute markers - if something fails in that marker, it simply isn't in that category. If it meets the marker, it is. If you feel that it should be in that category, you redefine the absolute markers - you don't bend them just to fit in a single instance.
 * "We either trust a main-stream game that provides input into the overall story, or a kh styled community game that contributes absolutely nothing to the story." - I replied with something along the lines that this is complete failure to understand how categorization works on a wiki, especially this wiki. There is absolutely no precedent to say that categories must be exclusive - in fact, our policy is edges towards the far end of inclusiveness (see Spirit of the Magic Mirror).
 * "Also, it is said that the keyblade releases hearts, this is true ,but where was it said that it is the only thing that canrelease hearts." - I've replied multiple times that Marluxia said this.
 * "Beings of darkness have the ability to steal hearts without the aid of the keyblade, such as Maleficent, so would it be that mean of a feat for a blade made of pure darkness to release them?" - I replied that this was not the same as releasing hearts from the samsara of Kingdom Hearts, like darkness does.
 * "All the Heartless seen in CoM are created from Memories, thus are not real." - I forgot to reply to this, because it is absolutely bizarre. Of course they are created from memories, they're HEARTLESS. Memories are part of your heart, as Nomura has often said. Riku's journey even says they are tokens of darkness.
 * "Where in KH2, again, with the pink hearts?" - I answered this, but from memory, not from a video. It needs to be checked again.
 * "Tell me, aside from releasing hearts from heartless, which was never proven to be a keyblade exclusive ability, what Keyblade functions has Soul Eater ever displayed" - I answered this with the Keyhole one, and also answered how this is absolutely a false claim.
 * "Also, I don't think releasing pink hearts means its a Keyblade. If it does, that means Goofy's shield, Donald's Stave, Leon's Gunblade, Cloud's sword, and Tifa's HANDS are Keyblades." - I also answered this, in that there is a Keyblade as part of the same battle.
 * "Whoever said Riku saw Hollow Bastion's Keyhole?" - I never said that, though the fact that he MADE it and was holding the Keyblade of Hearts is an obvious answer. And then, before that, the Kingdom Key.
 * "Also, at the point he saw Destiny Island's Keyhole, he didn't even have SE." - I didn't answer this, one because you seemed to misread my "agrabah" as "destiny islands", and because it does seem to be a plot hole. However, like with Xehanort at Hollow Bastion, it's possible he had a Keyblade at the time - the Kingdom Key, which had been promised to him.
 * "Also, what about that scene where Cloud and Leon are fighting the heartless by themselves? Pink Hearts." - As I said, this does not at all refute the fact that the canon says that only Keyblades can do this. Either Nomura made a mistake here (again, not refuting canon), or it is due to Sora being in the same battle nearby.


 * So, I count two points, which I did not directly address, and none that I completely ignored. Are there any others?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  17:56, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

When did you explain him seeing the DI Keyhole? The only other times he is seen releasing hearts is in close proximity with the Sora, your explanation for when everyone else releases hearts, the only valid source that calls SE a keyblade is Mobile and sice Days contridicts this by calling it a sword I guess that would invalidate both sources from this argument, so please recap your "it's a keyblade" evidence again, other than those that i just refuted, cuz obviously some got lost in the mainstream --ShadowsTwilight 17:40, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * "NOMURA F*CKING SAID YOU CAN ONLY DO THAT WITH A KEYBLADE." - that's how I replied to Destiny Islands. I explain it again in detail in my most recent comment.
 * "only other times he is seen releasing hearts" - no. He does this throughout CoM, and in Days.
 * "the only valid source that calls SE a keyblade is Mobile and sice Days contridicts this by calling it a sword" - this is, again, a massive failure to understand what you are talking about. This is in no way a contradiction, and even if it was treated as one, Days would be the failure since (1) Mission Mode is also dis-canonical, (2) It calls explicit Keyblades "swords" as well, and (3) it is not backed up by further sources.
 * "other than those that i just refuted" - you have failed to refute a single thing in this entire discussion. You keep repeating the Days one over and over, as well as stating blatantly false claims such as Riku releasing grey hearts, or always being near Sora.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  17:56, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

I never said he releases grey hearts, he releases pink ones. the only problem is is that the only times we see this happen is in mission mode, which you pointed out was non-canonical, and during his fight with Sora in LoD, where he was near Sora. Also, you said that Mission Mode was Non-canonical so any evidence it presents is crap, Is mobile any more canonical? does it even contribut anything to the KH canon? no, so based on your own arguments, any evidence presented by mobile isn't worth crap, so all void evidence includes mobile calling it a keyblade, days calling it a sword, and SE releasing pink hearts in mission mode, so what other evidence do you have that Soul Eater is a keyblade sinse we seem to be back at square one?
 * Sorry, I got your claims mixed with evny's. I apologize.
 * No, it happens in CoM as well.
 * Non-canonical does not mean "crap evidence" - it simply means that it cannot be used to refute canon. Otherwise, we wouldn't have names for many of the character's weapons, which we got from Mobile. All officially released material is fair game, according to this wiki's policies. Mobile is rolled up into Re:coded as part of the Avatar Menu, so I would say that it, along with Mission Mode, contributes just as much as the stats for the various things in the games, which we gleefully use, and which this discussion is totally based upon.
 * If you are saying that "anything which is at all ancillary to the games cannot be used in evidence", then there is nothing whatsoever to say that Soul Eater is NOT a Keyblade (Mission Mode was your only real horse in this). And even then, we have Nomura saying that it is literally a form of his Way to the Dawn Keyblade, and it releasing hearts in CoM, and allowing Riku to see Agrabah's Keyhole.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  18:23, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just realized - I thought this was obvious to everyone from the beginning, but just to be clear:
 * A KEYBLADE IS A TYPE OF SWORD. FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  18:24, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, first off, a keyblade is a type of sword but a sword is not a type of keyblade, that being said, it would make sense to think that it labels Riku's weapon as a sword but all three could be keyblades. ok, nice assumption, except if that was the case, why wouldn't it just say that hi--ShadowsTwilight 19:27, October 18, 2010 (UTC)s weapons were keyblades? simply put, because one of them is not! so, they label his weapon as something that could mean any of the three of them. Second off, the theory of proximity to the keyblade allows you to release hearts thing is crap. Watching Gameplay videos of KHII, it shows that if Donald or Goofy slays a heartless, they don't release a heart, they release a fuzzy orb. however, it doesnt mean that it really does have to be a keyblade to release a heart, as you still see Leon, Cloud etc. releasing hearts left and right. Third off, when does riku see the Agrabah Keyhole, and i don't mean that in the"you have no proof that he did" kind of way, i mean it in the "I really don't remember this happening" kind of way. was this a FM thing or something? cuz i really don't remember this scene. Fourth and final, and if someone can show me something that says differently, please say something, I can't seem to find anything that says Nomura himself worked on Mobile, so if he didn't, i'd say that means that it's accuracy could be a little off. Not saying he didn't, I'm just saying that I can't find anythingthat says he did, and that could prove to be a problem with mobiles reliability if so --ShadowsTwilight 18:52, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) I was not replying to you, Falcos, about the sword thing, so don't worry.
 * ST, your first assumption is baseless. Sora has exactly the same setup (Two explicit Keyblades and one maybe), and his are all called Keyblades. Riku's weapon classification is purely for aesthetics in all likelihood.
 * 1) "Being near it is crap" - Roxas still releases hearts when using a stick, as he is near Xion. They may have been qutie inconsistent with that in KHII, but it has been borne out especially in the more recent games
 * 2) Agrabah - I apologize, I must have misremembered that scene. I rescind that claim. I have also remembered that KH1 specifically says that Genie's magic and Triton's trident also allow people to see the Keyhole, even though Nomura has more recently said that only the Keyblade can. This appears to be a plot-hole, although it would not have affected this discussion.
 * 3) "Message from the Kingdom" - Mobile is frequently covered in this blog. Regardless, it is an officially released part of the Kingdom Hearts series which has even been included in one of the mainstream video games. Its reliability is beyond reproach, from that angle.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  19:14, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Regarding #3, so basically the whole hearts thing can't be argued either way because the series contradicts itself over and over again. Regarding #'s 4 and 5, thank you for clearing that up, again I wasn't saying he didn't i was just finding it hard to find something that said he did. Ok, i find myself out of arguments so for the time being, I concede. Damnit. --ShadowsTwilight 19:27, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Here's an argument for you, ShadowsTwilight: just because it is a sort of a keyblade, or half a keyblade does not mean it's a keyblade. The way you all describe it it's almost a keyblade, but not quite. in other words, it's not a keyblade. A catepillar might be almost a butterfly, or halfway to being a butterfly, and hell, it's the exact same thing as the later butterfly, but i won't call it a butterfly when it's still a catterpillar. Soul Eater is a sword, not a keyblade--71.72.74.172 07:23, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Nomura said that it's an intermediate step.
 * 2) Mobile said it's a Keyblade.
 * 3) It has abilities that Keyblades are said to solely possess.
 * 4) That analogy is completely wrong. "Butterfly" is the name of the creature. A caterpillar is a juvenile butterfly, it is not a different kind of thing. That misconception lead to beliefs like flies spawning from rotten meat, instead of from maggots.
 * 5) The constant use of tenuous analogies in the face of explicit evidence from official sources IS NOT HOW YOU DEBATE. You use evidence in a debate, not "well, I like to look at it this way" - jolly for you, that changes nothing.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  14:00, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

Overall i'm still not convinced --71.72.74.172 19:05, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Intermediate step doesn't mean it is one itself
 * 2) 358/2 Days calls it a sword
 * 3) Like what, might I ask?
 * 4) Ok i'll give you that one

(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  19:48, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Intermediate also doesn't mean it isn't one. There are far more things that have a medium of variation, than have explicit states from one to another. For example, hot and cold. Or anything in evolution. Saying "It's not 100% therefore it's 0%" makes pretty much zero sense.
 * 2) Days also calls the Oblivion and Way to the Dawn swords.
 * 3) It allows Riku to release hearts (pink).

I don't know if this has been mentioned, but the fact that Maleficent created it makes me wonder. Does this mean Maleficent can create Keyblades? I honestly think that it should be kept as "Sword"

I was originally against calling it a Keyblade, however seeing as Way to the Dawn is made from both Darkness and Light, and Soul Eater is made of pure Darkness, I think Maleficent tempered his Darkness allowing half of his Keyblade to form. --Evnyofdeath 20:05, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...the hell are you two talking about? Where has it been said that Way to the Dawn is made from Darkness and Light, or that Maleficent made the Soul Eater?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  20:19, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know where it was said Maleficent made it, I was responding to Chitalian. Also, doesn't WttD represent Riku's balance between Darkness and Light? --Evnyofdeath 21:04, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

So basically it's not a kyblade it's a part of a keyblade... but not a keyblade itself? --146.85.236.100 21:11, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * That is what I personally think, yes. --Evnyofdeath 21:13, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is nothing whatsoever that says that about the Way to the Dawn. The only info we have is that it is the Soul Eater, fully become Keyblade.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:40, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * re:anon - no, I'm saying that it is something like 50% between Keyblade and normal sword. Enough so that it possesses the qualities of a Keyblade and could be considered as much a Keyblade as the X-blade or Keyblade of People's hearts - of an abnormal nature, but the same kind of thing.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:40, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

@KrytenKoro # "That doesn't mean it's not"? What the hell kind of evidence is that? and besides, the keyblade isn't temperature or a living bein, it is a specific, clearlydefinable object You have no evidence except for a step-up-from-a-minigame that was contradicted by another game that has a lot more canoical impact and an assumption based off of some vocabulay. Soul Eater is not a Keyblade--ShadowsTwilight 21:24, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Obviously only talking about his signature/default weapon, and besides that doesnt invalidate the title.
 * 2) Whoopee, you've got a texture difference. Tell me, if only a keyblade can release pink hearts, why wre Leon, Cloud, Sephiroth, and Tifa releasing them in KHII?

...I give up on talking to you, ST (and others, to an extent). If you really want to see my last reply to you, it's in the edit history, but there's no point in debating this if none of you are willing to provide any actual sources, or do anything except ramble on about how you want to think of things. When you're ready to debate intelligently, give me a ring.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:42, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

Alright alright, just one last thing then. Give us UNDENIABLE proof that Soul Eater is a Keyblade. If anywhere Nomura has said that the info in Mobil is canon, provide that now. --Evnyofdeath 21:43, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

You locked the page......? ALL I SAID WAS UNTIL WE ALL CAME TO A CONCLUSION TO KEEP THE INFO THE WAY IT WAS BEFORE THE ARGUMENT STARTED! --Evnyofdeath 21:44, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Xabryn provided the evidence for this a year ago. The page was changed accordingly, because he was actually providing info rather than complaining that he didn't like it. As for "giving you undeniable proof", I can't even do that to your apparent standards for most of Roxas's Keyblades, since the item description screen says "weapon", and has no more heft than Sora's Dream Sword or Riku's Soul Eater. Furthermore, your request about item descriptions in Mobile is absurd.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:51, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just wanna see something official that calls Soul Eater a Keyblade is all.
 * Well, thanks for being cool about this, Kryten, nice to know you can keep your anger and frustration in check during these things. On a more serious note, we are being intelligent about it, and as for the "rambling about whow we "want" to think of things" from our standpoint that seems to be all your doing too. just because someone is disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're unintelligent, stupid, or "rambling". grow up, will ya? --ShadowsTwilight 21:49, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * You are right. Disagreeing with me doesn't mean you're unintelligent, stupid, or rambling, 'cause I sure as hell disagreed with Xabryn before he provided the actual evidence. Being unintelligent, stupid, or rambling, however, does.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:51, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * How mature, and here i thought you were an adult--ShadowsTwilight 21:53, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * If the evidence is that good FREAKING SHOW IT TO US ALREADY. --Evnyofdeath 21:54, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...are you really that daft? The link to the evidence has been in the page text this whole time. I've restated it for you several times. How can you guys not see that you're just saying "I don't like what the games say" over and over?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  21:58, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * What I saw was a JOKE WEAPON being uses as part of the evidence. Ya know what? Never freaking mind. I don't care anymore. --Evnyofdeath 22:00, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * the problem is, Kryten, is that while the evidence shown is evidence, it is far from concrete --ShadowsTwilight 22:03, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

...hahahahahahhahahahah. Oh man, I really hope you guys are being this funny on purpose. It would be really depressing if you guys were serious about this.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  22:08, October 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh man, I just thought, did you two ever actually look at the Mobile stuff? Here's the image that's been cited in the article this whole time. Or here's a translation from what everybody else had been working on. Is there anything else in there that actually looks like it would make Mobile unreliable? Would you think to disagree with the Lionheart being a Keyblade that "borrows Leon's power", simply because it came from Mobile? Or are you hating on it simply because it disagrees with you?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  22:11, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, because I didn't know there was an article on the wiki for it, and you WOULD NOT POST A LINK (thats what I kept asking for.) Also, from looking at it, I foudn this in ther very beginning of the article: It does not contain any developments to the overall story of the Kingdom Hearts series. --Evnyofdeath 22:13, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh man, this is going to be fun. give me a minute to get a link.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  22:16, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * The link has been there for twelve days (also more explicitly here), and I keep on telling you that.22:20, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * You went from insulting our intelligence to a giddy school girl in no time flat. Why did I ever respect you? --Evnyofdeath 22:18, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * No idea. I don't respect anything but God and evidenced truth, so I don't understand why anyone would take me at my word without checking it. I've certainly taken the time to check everything you two have been saying.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  22:20, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wasn't gonna make that joke, but thanks for bringing it up yourself and making my input in that situation unnecesarry. --Evnyofdeath 22:21, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

Also, I've READ THOSE LINKS ALREADY and stated my opinion on them. To me it seems someone is trying to use a game mechanic and a JOKE WEAPON to prove his point. --Evnyofdeath 22:22, October 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * I really should stay out of this, but let me state again:

"Is that Keyblade a transfigured version of Soul Eater? Nomura: I designed it with that image. Since Riku has always been using Soul Eater, he still calls it that even after it changed form."
 * Mobile does not contradict Days. As I said before, a Keyblade is a type of Sword. Furthermore, it labels Riku's weapon-type as a Sword, not the Soul Eater. That is the definition of "indirect", since it also applies to the Oblivion and Way to the Dawn.
 * The hearts thing is not contradicted anywhere. A contradiction would be a Keyblade releasing grey hearts, or someone saying "Keyblades can't release hearts". What we have here is a plot hole, a point where something happens without a clear explanation. Possible explanations include (1) Sora was close by enough for it to count as his Keyblade's effect; (2) They only looked pink in KH2 due to a pink disco ball in the vicinity; (3) They were disguised as released hearts, because they were undercover as part of an attempt to bring down the Pink Conspiracy.
 * In that quote, Nomura point blank says that the Way to the Dawn is the Soul Eater:
 * He also says something similar in the Director's Secret Report XIII.

Finally, as I've said before, categories are non-exclusive. That's why we have the Oblivion and Way to the Dawn in the "Swords" category, because Days calls them Swords.

So, in summary:
 * 1) Mobile calls it a Keyblade.
 * 2) Nothing explicitly says "Not. A. Keyblade."
 * 3) Ergo, it is a Keyblade in all appearances, no matter the provenance, until proven otherwise.

(1) and (2) together are the only proof needed, even though, as I've presented above, there is more. The simple fact that in just one officially licensed product, it is called a Keyblade, is enough to consider it one until we find evidence otherwise. If we operated differently, for example, we would have no name for the Keyblade Kairi wields in KHII, because the game doesn't explicitly state at that point that it is named "Destiny's Embrace". It is later, in KHBbS, that the thing is given that name, but under an exclusionary logic, that still wouldn't count for KHII...which is why we don't use that kind of reasoning.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  23:25, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

"Nothing explicitly says "Not. A. Keyblade""? you're really inputting that in as evidence? under that we could call just about anything a keyblade. the rest of that could make sense if you think about it the rightway, but seriously? "Nothing explicitly says "Not. A. Keyblade""? damn Kryten you had me fooled into thinking that you knew what the hell "evidence" was --ShadowsTwilight 23:56, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

... After reading this entire text wall, I can conclude that Kryten is indeed right, and that I/we are wrong. Seriously guys, he showed us the evidence, I don't get what else you could possibly want.


 * Yay verily. ST, did you even bother to read the rest of Kryten's post? Or are you just going to denounce a six-word segment as bullcrap, without taking notice of the rest of it? No, of course not; if you did, you would have noticed Kryten labelled that point as part of his summary, not evidence. So you, good sir, are the one who doesn't know, "what the hell evidence [is]". maggosh 00:09, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

You people are hopeless -_- This argument has lapsed almost 3/4 of the page now. ST, your posts have grown to pure stubborness. You are refusing to admit that you might, might, be wrong. And telling someone that points in their argument are void is a pretty poor way to convince people that you are correct.

Here are my two cents: I think that you are both sort of right. I was always under the impression that - yes, Soul Eater IS a Keyblade, however, it is more of a prototype Keyblade, or rather, not a true Keyblade. Riku acquired it when he couldn't wield a Keyblade, because his heart was too weak, but then it transformed into a real one when his heart grew stronger. So it was sort of his preliminary weapon until he got the strength to wield a true one. So it could be a different kind of Keyblade. It could work quite similar to bleach: Soul Eater is the unreleased state of a Zanpakuto, and Way to Dawn is the released state. Only it's, you know, permanently released. Just stop fighting about this, it's getting on my nerves >_> -- 01:11, October 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Not to mention there's nothing in the article that you should find objectionable. The page says Soul Eater "is a form of one of Riku's Keyblades" and "is a sword that grows more powerful when used with darkness", both of which are true. Additionally, as a weapon strongly connected to Keyblades, as it is a proto-Keyblade, all of its categories are appropriate. The only thing you have to argue over is the "Riku's swords" template. -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  01:19, October 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Except that's just fucking wrong. It releases pink hearts in every game it appears in. 05:38, December 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I played Days and it DID releases pink Hearts. I got teh proof 16:08, December 21, 2010 (UTC)


 * unfortunately i have to agree, it's a bummer that the "Sword" notion lost but can we please let it go already-- 16:58, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

Here ya go Zaqaree: http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp117/the17master/Riku_Pink_Hearts.png 17:33, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

Suggested Changes
Since the page is locked, two minor changes I'd like to suggest:
 * "is a form of one of Riku's Keyblades" - this seems a bit vague, and implies Riku wields more than one Keyblade, which AFAIK he doesn't (Roxas' Oblivion not withstanding). I think it should be reworded to "a form of Keyblade wielded by Riku" or words that effect.
 * Also, since it is considered a keyblade, I think it's worth noting it's design is dissimilar to other Keyblades, with no Keychain, handguards, or "teeth" on the blade.

That is all. DoreikuKuroofangu 20:38, January 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * In Kingdom Hearts, Leon calls the "Keyblade of heart", "Riku's Keyblade". Would you be amenable to changing it to "a form of Riku's main Keyblade", with "Riku's main Keyblade" linking to WttD? 20:52, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * There's also him dual-wielding Destiny's Embrace in Kingdom Hearts II to consider. maggosh 21:23, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, I'd forgotten about those two. I think "a form of Keyblade wielded by Riku" would still work though, or "a form of Way To The Dawn wielded by Riku". DoreikuKuroofangu 22:40, January 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, for Destiny's Embrace, we have always treated Sora's Keychains as if they are forms of his first, even though he can manifest them on his second Keyblade as well. I don't think there's any backing to say that only Riku's second Keyblade can become the Destiny's Embrace.
 * For the wording, we use "a Keychain for Sora's Keyblade " for all the others, so I'd feel most comfortable modifying that for this purpose. I think we all agree on "form" instead of Keychain, but we need to find something to replace "Sora's Keyblade" (I don't think we need to say "wielded by Riku", if we just use the possessive). 23:43, January 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Frankly, I'd like to replace "Keychain" with "form" for all of its instances...
 * But for replacing "Sora's Keyblade", I think "Riku's main Keyblade" should be good enough. (Though it occurs to me that even though Aqua uses the Master Keeper, we aren't calling it a keychain or form of her Keyblade, so even though Leon calls the KoH "Riku's Keyblade", I don't think we should consider it as such, so "main" isn't needed. )  -- 01:44, February 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * For Master Keeper, I worded it that way because it is treated as the game as if it still is Eraqus's Keyblade, and she is just carrying it.
 * I would agree that Leon is wrong. However, if we say "Riku's Keyblade", it seems inaccurate to say that that refers to something other than the Keyblade of heart (in this case, the WttD), when that phrase is specifically used within the game to refer to the Koh. 02:35, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

So anything happening with this? DoreikuKuroofangu 08:42, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

New solution
Which should solve everything, really.

"Keyblades are said to be man-made counterparts to Kingdom Hearts."

Through Nomura, we know that the Soul Eater is considered the intermediary through which Riku obtained his Keyblade. It seems pretty straightforward, then, that the reason the Soul Eater has some Keyblade-only properties, but is clearly not a "true Keyblade", is that it is simply an unfinished Way to the Dawn, much like Riku's Keyblade of People's Hearts. 00:47, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's a different kind of incomplete, probably because they're two different types of Keyblades. (I say this even though we have no evidence that the Soul Eater can't lock/unlock things...)  -- 02:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh soitenly, it's a different type. But the basic idea of "Why is Riku's Keyblade-like thing not have the trademark features of a Keyblade" would be "its incomplete" -- something we really should have guessed from the similar situation of the KoPH. 03:00, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Biggest difference being that the KoPH is missing the keychain, while Soul Eater is missing, well, everything that defines a keyblade (visually at least). Ok, that sounds good. The question is though where does leave Soul Eater's official label? Keyblade? Half-Keyblade? Incomplete Keyblade? Not-a-Keyblade (due to not being complete)?-- 03:59, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
 * DTN asked me to create this as a forum thread to receive wider comment, and you can see my suggestion here. 04:13, 20 September 2011 (UTC)