Talk:Blank Points

--KrspaceT 02:09, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

I really think that this game will exist in most important past worlds, as well as ones appearing in Brith By Sleep. That is if they weren't destroyed. You remember that fairy tale that said all the worlds used to be connected as one? That might just be what happens again. Soil is my power! 23:58, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe the worlds will be reconnected. But it's hard to tell. For all WE know, Sora might be going to a tea party.-- 22:15, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

huh?
i just wathed those trailers and i'm confused as hell!

and i thought i had kingdom hearts all figured out....

Haha, when you think of it that way, it's kinda like LOST. No matter how hard you try, you may never fully understand it... 66.215.20.249 04:40, August 6, 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of It
Maybe the King's letter was telling Sora to go find something, possibly proof that Xion existed, or maybe the 3 keyblade masters from BBS. We can't really infer anything, for with Kingdom Hearts: Everything is not what it seems. We're just making guesses from what we (mis)understand.-- 22:13, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

emily- well i think all the characters (sora riku kairi xion namine roxas ventus aqua terra) reconnect because there re still heartless and nobodies and they have to work together

Canon
On the subject of the article itself, why is it stated that this video's stated status as canon differentiates it from the others? Haven't the other videos been established as canon durring 358/2 Days and Birth By Sleep? (The-Man-Who-Laughs 02:42, January 18, 2010 (UTC))
 * Absolutely not. They are specifically stated to be uncanon, and have numerous differences from the actual events. They are intended to be trailers, certainly, but changes are always made between planning and final product. This is, instead, an epilogue, rather than a trailer. Glorious  CHAOS!  03:13, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

Deep Dive is almost exactly the same in 358/2 Days as it is in Final Mix. A movie trailer is a disjointed representation of the canon events within. The first Another Side, Another Story was just a teaser porviding concept, but Deep Dive is pretty much exactly the same as the cutscene in the game. I recognize that Reconnect is an epilogue instead of a tralier, but the others aren't exactly non-canon, so I don't think that should be a noted factor. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 03:40, January 18, 2010 (UTC))
 * "They are specifically stated to be uncanon". For an example of a difference - Roxas doesn't paint the heart around himself in KHII or Days. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:19, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

1) Tiny detail difference, the video is mostly canon. LOOK at the damn thing. It's at least 90% canon by just looking at the damn video. 2) Source? When were they specifically stated to be uncanon, and how does that work when the end of Days is obviously meant to be Deep Dive quite damn near exactly? (The-Man-Who-Laughs 05:37, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

But that's not the point. "I recognize that Reconnect is an epilogue instead of a trailer" My point is that the others were not 'non-canon' they were previews of events to come and events that did indeed come to pass in games following in release date but not necessarily timeline. The point is, they were canon events shown to foreshadow other events of the upcoming games. Reconnect IS different in that it's an epilogue instead of a trailer. Reconnect is the same in the fact that it is also a secret unlockable video, and it is NOT different in terms of canon because all 3 are canon in some regard. I'm fine with acknowledging that Reconnect is a different sort of secret unlockable video, but the stating that its canonocity seperates it from the others is not a valid statement. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 06:36, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

Everyone keeps saying that it is stated but nobody can show me where. Deep Dive is the ending of Days with some flash and substance thrown in the background, but movie trailers generally show canon events with words thrown in to inform you. Doe that make the movie trailer uncanon? All of the events depicted are the events in the film, the added words are different and the events are jumbled about but they're each individually canon in their own regard, and Deep Dive shows events that do occur with some extra words thrown in. And in addition I located an article on this very site stating that Nomura has stated that the Birth By Sleep video is also canon. http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Birth_by_sleep_(Video)#Commentary_by_Nomura So, you tell me where they are 'specifically stated to be non-canon' because it seems to me that they are specifically stated and SHOWN at this point to be canon as near as I can tell with sources. [EDIT] He says in the quote you provided, that "It is not connected to JUST the sequel." The key word there is JUST, implying that it is 'connected' to the sequel but also other events as well, not saying it's not canon. And if it's a 'recap' as stated, a RECAP is canon as well, that's why its a recap, a retelling of canon events. [EDIT2] Wait I'm confused,you said, "Nomura specifically said that while the other ending videos were just trailers, this one was more of an epilogue." A point which I have repeatedly AGREED with. Just because they are trailers does not mean they are not canon. They were trailers and not teasers. And just because it was not 'intended' to be canon doesn't change the fact that future games MADE them canon. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 06:57, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

Why these quotes are unreliable:

EDIT: Here's another quote (my highlighting)

 One of the surprises of playing KHII is that the scenes and lines foreshadowed in the "deep dive" secret movie in KH:FM were actually cleared. On solving the underplots, how much was hypothesized back in the first KH? I think half was thought up back in the first game, another half was thought up once we started working on KHII. Even so, that doesn't mean we didn't think of them at all in the first place, but more like a rough "maybe we should do this." We also changed somethings we thought up at that time so that's what I mean by half-half.  Anybody can take words out of context and make them mean what they want, and since this quote doesn't at all relate to Birth by Sleep, it isn't a valid argument.

 Another: At the end of the previous installment, KH, there was a secret movie that was to bring light on what the sequels could be like. When you made those sequences, did you already have in mind what CoM and KHII would be like? This was a question given by an interviewer. You can't use this as evidence for your cause...

 In a kind of vague way yes. The most precise visions I hade were those of KHII as I already had decided that it would take place a year after KH, that the atmosphere would be different in some ways. If I was to create a KHII I wanted it to begin in the most intriguing way as it would be possible. I only began thinking about "What happens in that year between" in CoM much later. Not only does this not talk about Birth by Sleep, it doesn't even mention a secret ending. All it says is that Nomura is unsure of what might happen inbetween.

 Another: Nomura: Yes there is one. Except this time it isn’t a pre-rendered movie that gives a hint as to how the story will develop later, but is shown like an event scene. There is dialog, and in all it runs about ten minutes. It is set up as one episode. Instead of showing us what will happen in the future, it is more like a true ending. I would really like everyone to see it. There are characters that will only show up there in it as well. When he said that it is a true ending, this meant that it wrapped up the story that has happened so far. It shows that all these people have suffered, and that Sora will save them. This doesn't mean, however, that these events did not happen. Your argument is that these events are uncanon, not that they don't speak of further games.

 Another: After the ending, there’s a secret movie this time, too. What exactly is the movie trying to tell? I actually have a solid idea on what the movie’s setting will be in my head. In the previous game’s secret movie, I wasn’t even sure if I would be making a sequel or not, so some parts of it were quite vague. But this time I already have an idea my head where I think “This is it.” I have no idea why you chose this quote, it just works against what you said. It claims that Nomura already knew exactly what was going on when he made this, and furthermore knows that these events will happen. In the Birth by Sleep trailer, not all events were exactly as they were shown, but like he says in that quote, he wasn't as sure of the game yet. In this ending, he is, so he knows exactly what is going on.

 Another: When did KHII’s development officially start? In the previous game, I inserted a secret movie in hopes of creating a sequel, but to actually pull it off, KHII had a number of hurdles that I had to clear first. Like our wish “to give Mickey more spotlight”, we had to wait until Disney allowed that and once it’s settled, then we could finally talk about KHII’s development. What I love here is that this quote means nothing. Just that development didn't start doesn't mean the events weren't planned. The movie was meant to show what events would happen in the future, IF the game was made they got the right sources. It wasn't meant to show the possiblity of what might be planned.

Your hypothesis is about as valid as the argument: people walk on the balls of their feet, so buy our shoes!

The end of Days depicts events identical to the events depicted in Deep Dive. Both were made officially and shown in KH games. Please explain to me how that is not canon.

The link I provided contains this line "Nomura stated in a Famitsu interview that this video is the non-playable ending of the PSP game, and that the game might take place ten years before the first Kingdom Hearts game." Which is presented on this very site to be as much fact as the statement I am questioning. The site itself is contradicting itself. The quote I provided makes a statement referencing a specific, probably easily double-checkable interview, while the one in question is more vague and indirect.

What part of "True Ending" inmplies non-canon? If anything you just provided evidence to support my claim. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 07:33, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

I can't confirm or deny the canonocity of the Birth By Sleep video, but that link clearly states that it is or at least was intended to be canon. My restating true ending can be disregarded b/c I missed the context in my first readthrough. Secondly... the only real reason Deep Dive is any different than the ending of Days is they way the graphics are rendered. Deep Dive has the extra boosted graphcs look about it, but the point still remains that the same characters, fight the same heartless, with the same weapons, in the same ways. The only difference, is that in the video we watch the fight, in the game we instead play the fight. Please explain to me how one is not canon when the other is and they are the sames thing.

[EDIT] Answer me this. Re: Chain of Memories includes additional cutscenes, different stlyed fight scenes in cutscenes, complete graphical overhauls thus changing the events much more so than the difference between Deep Dive and Days, even gives Marluxia an extra form as a boss. Now, with all this in mind, is Chaim of Memories the original now un-canon? Are all of the regular games non-canon becuase their status as canon is subverted by the Final Mix games? Are only the FInal Mix games canon and the regular games not? (The-Man-Who-Laughs 07:46, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

Ok, please tell me what the hell you're talking about with Kairi, because I have no idea what you mean. It is completely obvious that the end of Days is intended to be Deep Dive. The have both Roxas and Riku go through movements exactly the same to match Deep Dive. They fight the same heartless with the same keyblades, go through the same exchange on the building, and go through the same events. The only difference is the graphics style, and some of the exact movements during the fight, and if you want to count that, you have to count the fact that no single plyathough of the game is continuitous with any other because you will never fight everything the exact same way more than once, and therefore every playthrough by any person is not continuious with any other.

Also, The secret ending [from KH2: FM+] is actually a scene from Birth By Sleep" IS ACTUALLY A SCENE FROM BIRTH BY SLEEP. Straight from the horse's mouth! What part of that doesn't scream canon into a bullhorn with hot pink confetti? The point is that BBS the video is a preview of the actual events of BBS the game. BBS the video by itself is nothing more than a piece of the game taken out of context and spruced up a bit. The EVENTS of the video are continuitous, but by themself they mean nothing. It is only in BBS the game that the video's event's place in the canon timeline are shown. Maybe the 'videos themselves' are not 'directly continuitous' but the both protray continuitous events in canon that were not yet shown where in the timeline they were until later. Days made Deep Dive canon, BBS made BBS canon. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 10:51, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

I can't say anything about BBS having not played the game itself, but stylistic differences in the fight is not reliable evidence. When an event happens in any animated media and is show later as a flashback sometimes the flashback is animated sepreatly. Trees blowing, blades of grass, little tiny details will be changed but does that discount one over another? The actual stylings of the fight are unreliable data because 90% of the fights in the games are done by the player. You can tell they attempted to keep the movements the same and instead of reanimating the fight itself, they let the player enact the fight, but the fight shown in Deep Dive is a representation of the fight done by the player. Deep Dive happens. Deep Dive may not happen exactly as shown, but Deep Dive was an event shown prior to its appearance. Deep Dive happened, Days showed us that Dee Dive happened, that was the point of the way they did the scene, they made it clear that they wanted you to know that the end of Days was Deep Dive b/c now you can say, oh, Deep Dive was just showing us what was going to happen in Days instead of just being a random jumble of concepts, as I and most people originally thought, now Deep Dive is actually what happened later and not fragments of what might h were sghown. Deep Dive itself is the appen; because they made it happen in Days

[EDIT] and, if I may add, because Mickey did not do anything in relation to the characters besides watch, you cannot reliably say that he wasn't there. Just because Days didn't show him there, does not mean he wasn't there, it just means they didn't show us thatt he was there. I'm not saying he 100% was there, but I am saying you cannot say he 100% wasn't there. "The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence." (The-Man-Who-Laughs 22:00, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

Regardles of whether or not they were 'intended' to be canon at the time of creation, the matter of the fact is, that the end of Days, takes a scene previously disregarded as a jumble of non-canon concepts, and made them into canon events. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 22:32, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

They are EXACTLY THE SAME event wise. Despite a graphics difference which is by no means any kind of indication, and a few scenes in Deep Dive that are not in Days. Days itself does NOT demonstrate any proof whatsoever that the events not shown did not happen. Mickey didn't do anything in the trailer besides watch, just because Days didn't shw him watching doesn't mean he was watching, but it also doesn't mean he wasn't. Deep Dive is part of Days surgically removed and placed on its own. It was a demonstartion of the events before they were shown. Deep Dive itself is just a clip, protraying canon events. These events are repeated in Days to provide context and timeline placement for the canon events of Deep Dive. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 23:38, January 18, 2010 (UTC))

It seems to me that, just because there are some minor differences between 2 interpretations of the same story, that does not mean one version is wrong or not canon. In Pulp Fiction, parts of the story are told from different points of view and because of this minor details about what happens are remembered differently, because one persons perseption of the events are different. However, because the majority of the events are the same both interpretations are seen as correct and essential to the story. While it's difficult to place exactly when the events of the endings occur at the moment, due to the fact that we don't have access to Birth by Sleep, we can not discredit the the continuity as of yet.It can also be stated that while no one who works on these games, has expessed wether or not these scenes are events that actually happen in the games, or if they are just teasers, it would work against them to confirm one or the other, due to the fact that, one set of consumers might be off-put by knowing exactly what's going to happen, and another group might be off-put by the fotage not appearing in the game. So unless they have expressly said otherwise we can not prove one way or the other that the cutscenes from the games are or are not in continuity, but we can't discredit them over minor differences, especially with nothing to verify them with.(Equick 03:42, January 19, 2010 (UTC))


 * ....Yes, we can discredit them over minor differences. That is the entire purpose of the concept of "canon".
 * Furthermore, every quote we've gotten from Nomura has the clear implication that these were intended only as teasers - he had not already planned the next game, he did it almost 100% just to drum up interest in a sequel, he gave them new costumes just because he hadn't designed their faces yet.
 * Please, you "two", look up "canon" in a dictionary or encyclopedia. It is a word that cannot be twisted in meaning. Glorious  CHAOS!  03:51, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

No, you cannot discredit them because the differences do not implicitly contradict each other. Anything in either video that is not shown in the other is also not explicitly shown to not happen. And YES, at the time of conception, they were intended only as teares. Now, look at the time Deep Dive was even released, 2002, meaning the idea was in motion even before that. Now, flash forward to 2009, 7 years later when 358/2 Days is released. Maybe Deep Dive was not INTENDED to be canon, BUT, MUCH LATER AFTER MAKING THAT STATEMENT, Deep Dive is MADE canon by including it as the ending of 358/2 Days. The ONLY DIFFERENCES are the graphics (No bearing on continuity), and the appearance of Mickey, and the bilboard. JUST BEACUSE these things were NOT shown in 358/2 Days does NOT mean they weren't happening in the continuity. It would in fact make sense that Mickey was watching. Because what he did had no bearing on the events progressing, it was unnessicary to show him in the game itself. I'm not saying he 100% was there, but I am saying you cannot prove 100% he WASN'T there, thus at least bringing up the possibility that Deep Dive IS continuitous. But look at what you're saying. WHEN THE TEASER WAS MADE it was not INTENDED to be canon. And yes indeed, COM and KHII both did not contain Deep Dive, but 7 YEARS LATER, 358/2 Days DOES show Deep Dive happening. The video was not intended to be canon AT FIRST, but obviously Nomura changed his mind. THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THE SCENE. In viewing it is completely obvious that it is INTENDED to be Deep Dive rendered in in-game graphics. They took careful care to show the heartless rising from the ground at the same angles, Roxas doing the same movements to bring out his keyblades, and Roxas and Riku taking the same route up and down the tower respectively. They even have Riku hesitiating while thinking about Sora as he falls both times. AT THE TIME IT WAS MADE Deep Dive was not INTENDED to be canon, but the obvious use of the same events from the same perspectives shows that it was LATER decided to make it canon. This is not unheard of in the video game world. Several Castlevania games have gone through this descrepincy. Castlevania Legends was originally intended to chronicle the first time a Belmont defeated Dracula, not contradicted by the later Lament of Innocence where we see the first Belmont to meet Dracula, but not fight him, but swear his family will continue to hunt him for generations. EVEN SO, Legends was removed from continuity. Circle of the Moon, Castlevania 64, Legacy of Darkness were all removed and regarded as 'spin offs' and 'not part of the true continuity.' But with the release of Portrait of Ruin, a restructured timeline placed these games into the main canon. The point is, just because something was not intended to be canon, doesn't mean it can't be changed. The events shown were BLATANTLY revisited in 358/2 Days with no accountable discrepancies. Any minor differences are ACCOUNTABLE FOR. The abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence. Just because Mickey wasn't shown watching doesn't mean he wasn't, even though it doesn't mean he was.

Edit @ Neumannz: it was a 'Secret Video,' intended for promotional purposes, but the fact remains that when 358/2 Days was released, it became a stylized cutscene account of events to come. It was originally intended to be a promotional video, but was not specifically labled that, giving the creators free will to change the nature of it without having to change the 'title status' of it. It transformed from a supposed to be non-canon jumble of ideas into an accurate depiction of future events. Also, by saying that what is canon is only what is shown in the games you are implying that events offscreen that are not specifically mentioned and time inbetween games are in fact not canon, and that the plot just has a big empty space in those places. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 04:31, January 19, 2010 (UTC))

Canon: Those sources, especially including literary works, which are generally considered authoritative regarding a given fictional universe.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canon

Deep Dive. Is a video. A video that by itself. Depicts canon events. A video is defined by what it shows, and that is all it shows. Now please explain to me why a video that shows canon events happening is not canon. Deep Dive is a canon event, shown by itself making it's exact place in canon ambiguous, and as inteded at first, not canon. But 358/2 Days REVISITS events now made canon and establishes them as canon by establishing a context and RESHOWING CANON EVENTS in a game. Deep Dive was a Secret Video INCLUDED in a game. It was later proven that it showed canon events before they happened, or it could be said that it just showed a bit of what happened later, or perhaps, Linking KH1 and 2 by making the last thing shown in KH1 the very last event that occurs before KH2, making KH2 even more of a direct sequel and solidifying COM and 358/2 Days as Midquels, b/c they fill in the space left between KH1 and Deep Dive which was included IN KH1. The show Heroes has online comics as back up material. Are you saying they're not 'canon' b/c they're not the official show, just promotional tie-ins? Is the original Star Wars: Clone Wars miniseries not 'canon' b/c it was just a lead-in into the movie and not the movie? If the cutscenes are taken out of the game and shown alone are they suddenly no longer 'canon'? (The-Man-Who-Laughs 04:31, January 19, 2010 (UTC))

No, I'm getting your point and blatantly disagreeing with it. Things would be different if it was only released as a promotional video, but it is a video IN THE DAMN GAME. A video that foreshadows future events instead of being a true epilogue. Once the events were established as canon, the video became canon, because Deep Dive itself is not just a promotion shown at a convention, it is a VIDEO IN A GAME. DEEP DIVE IS IN THE GAME, and not just 358/2 Days, DEEP DIVE. THE VIDEO. IS A PART. OF KINGDOM HEARTS FINAL MIX. It was INTENDED to be promotional, but that changed once the video was repeated in 358/2 Days. DEEP DIVE IS IN AN OFFICIAL GAME OFFICIALLY. THis fucking suits the definition of canon that you love to flaunt around. And you seemed to ignore the definition of canon that I looked up as suggested, which states that any source, escpecially literary works, authoritative given a fictional universe. This definition here shows that an event being canon makes it canon. and you ignored most of what I said as well, I asked you to explain to me WHY the event being canon does not make the depiction of the event canon. I'm getting your point, I'm pointing out that I get your point and challenging you to defend it, you, however are missing my point, which is that I'm showing you reasons why an event being canon makes it canon, and all you've started doing is trying to end it with your point, saying that because (according to you) An event being continuitous doesn't make the video continuitous is not enough. I am challenging that view and trying to root deeper into the definition but you seem to have stopped with that statement, using that claim to back up your main argument of Deep Dive not being continuitous, instead of defending your claim that supports your argument. Then you accuse me of missing your point while I am clearly challenging your claim with evidence to support my argument of my claim which thereby supports my main argument of the conversation. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 05:18, January 19, 2010 (UTC))

Nomura stated it was not INTENDED to be canon, and he also made this statement several years ago. Ask Nomura now that the end being 90% the same was included in 358/2 Days whether or not Deep Dive is canon or not, although I'm sure his response will basically be something of a 'duh, NOW it's continuitous. Nomura stated AT THAT TIME that it wan't INTENDED to be canon. However, in light of 358/2 Days, it now is. And I love how you switched from "You're not getting my point, THE EVENT BEING CANON DOES NOT MAKE THE VIDEO CANON" Back to ' Nomura said so' Nomura said so a while ago. Ask him now, and I still have yet to hear an explanation as to why the event being CANON doesn't make the video canon. Not even in realtion to this per-se, in general given those exact words, I don't see how that sentance is anything other than a logical absurdity.

And I appologize for the profanity, but I was a bit peeved that you accused me of missing your point when I was cleary attempting to challenge your point head on like a jouster.

[EDIT] Ad while I'm at it, i might as well point out that 358/2 Days follows the scene/encounter between Roxas and Riku exactly. The only difference as far as I can tell is the addition of th billboard and King Mickey in Deep Dive. However, the fact that they were not explicitly shown in 358/2 Days, does not mean that they were not there. While th video does not show us them, at also does not show us proof that they are not there. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 06:05, January 19, 2010 (UTC))


 * Okay, let me just try to pound this into your head:
 * Do you, or do you not, agree that there are any objects, (not graphical quality, but actual objects) present in Another Side, Another Story or Deep Dive, that are not present in the same exact details in Days or KHII, or vice versa? Glorious  CHAOS!  06:30, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

I agree there are objects DEPICTED in Deep Dive not explicitly shown in 358/2 Days, but they are also not explicitly shown to not be there. They may or may not be present, that is an interminable factor at this time. The movements of the characters only varies enough to be chalked up to graphical difference, other than that, it is clear that great effort was made to keep the movements in the same exact detail.

Secondly, The word canon can simultaneously refer to the considerations of the publishers of a fictional series as well as what the fanbase chooses to consider as authentic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_(fiction)

There is abslutely no sigle bit of CONCLUSIVE evidence to say that Deep Dive is NOT canon. There are things shown in it not shown it 358/2 Days, but just b/c they're not show doesn't mean they're not there. The fact remains that Deep Dive COULD be continuitous after 90% of it was used in exact replica, while the remaining 10% was not changed, just not shown, which does not mean that it 100% didn't happen, just that we don't know if it still happened or not. Yes

, I know Nomura said it was not INTENDED to be canon, but if he had the entire ending of 358/2 Days in mind when he was in that interview he definatly would not have made that statemtn, b/c the end of 358/2 Days is obviously intended to be Deep Dive or as close as you can get to it, making it such that Deep Dive is now intended to represent the canon, contradicting what he said previously, but obviously that's because while it was not intended to be canon at it's conception, doesn't mean it can't ever bo considered it considering that with his qupte disowned in the situation, there is no other porrf that says that Deep Dive 100% isn't canon. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 06:43, January 19, 2010 (UTC))

"Those sources, especially including literary works, which are generally considered authoritative regarding a given fictional universe. "
 * That's actually the definition which would rule out the movies in favor of the games.
 * There is plenty of "conclusive" evidence to rule out Deep Dive. If you actually compared the videos, as I've suggested, you would have seen it. Nomura has commented on some of it - for example, they took the capes off of the BBS armored forms, which are present in the movies, because it was hard to graphically animate.

Again, canon is a hard term. It cannot be used softly. What it means is that there is specific material, where its creator says, when he makes it "this is true, this is what happened exactly". There have been schisms in the church over books that "are very close", but not close enough, and the authors are not authoritative, so - not canon. It, by definition, means "If something differs from this, even a little, IT IS NOT TRUE." The games are the established material - if Deep Dive, ASAS, The Gathering, or Birth by sleep differ from the games in any manner, they are 100% not-canon. They are useful, certainly, but they are not authoritative. The quality of canon is the EXACT SITUATION in which "absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence" is not applicable (even if there was an absence of evidence). Glorious  CHAOS!  06:57, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

The quality of canon is never the EXACT SITUATION. Plot holes almost always come up somewhere. If there was a flashback that was animated seperatly instead of reusing the same animation, by your strict definition, one of them cannot be canon. Except, they both are, the differences are so infinitly minor that nobody cares, but it still creates the most minor of minor plot holes. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 07:13, January 19, 2010 (UTC))

Differences

 * 1)
 * 2)
 * 3)
 * In KH2, the Heartless emblem does not appear on Roxas's chest when he appears at the Dark Meridian. He also takes an entirely more aggressive stance. (see source 3, 0:02)
 * In Deep Dive, Kairi appears on the screen at the top of Memory's Skyscraper, throughout the fight. In Days, it's just a blank, green screen. (see source 2, 1:48)
 * In Deep Dive, the Neoshadows continue to follow Roxas up the tower, after he jumps on it, and he continues to slay them. In Days, they jump at him as he is getting on, but do not follow after that. Notably, Roxas throws the Oblivion through a Neoshadow, and Riku is followed by Neoshadows when he jumps. (see source 1, 1:42)
 * In Days and KH2, there is never, at any point, a Heartless Emblem of flames.
 * The skyscaper Mickey lands in is the same one Riku leapt from and Roxas is now on (judging by the spire), so if he is in Dark City at the same time as them in Deep Dive, he should appear in Days and KH2.

more to come


 * I'm not seeing the heartless emblem on Roxas in either video.....
 * It appears, glowing, on Roxas's chest as he walks through the rock. That's why I listed the frame for you. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:43, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I have no defense for Kairi except if I wanted to be a jerk and say we saw the screen at different times and her image was flashing.
 * Then you accept that it is material difference. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:43, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you want to go with the actions of heartless, than any game is not continuitous because then the characters never fight all the heartless in the exact ssame way every time.
 * If you're just going to be facetious, then there is no point to this discussion. In Deep Dive, the Neoshadows are (1) Attacking Riku on top of the tower, and (2) Roxas throws the Keyblade in order to defeat a Neoshadow. In Days, he's throwing it at Riku. These are substantial differences that affect the purpose and meaning of the events. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:43, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Heartless Emblem of flames was only ever shown durring images flashing about, which wcould be said to be Riku's or any othe character portrayed's thoughts.
 * It shows up, fully, in ASAS. I have suggested multiple times that you actually review all four videos. The fact that I haven't explicitly spelled out the frame for you, like I did with the other examples, does not mean it is not there. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:43, January 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because he doesn't appear doesn't mean he's not there. I mean, King Mickey spends so much time offscreen in god knows where, it's perfectly logical to say he could easily be in the city and not shown, tor the purpose of this argument.
 * The skyscraper Mickey lands on, which is shown in Deep Dive immediately after Roxas reaches the top of his skyscraper - it's the same skyscraper. The camera should be able to see Mickey if the videos are progressing the same as the game. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:43, January 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * He means the heart appearing on the ground around Roxas. It's very clear.
 * The characters ALWAYS fight the same enemies in the exact way in cutscenes, dont try to put battles during gameplay into this, because, yeah, there's no way to say a fight happened a certain way because a player played it like that. You're entirely correct, any one non-obligatory gameplay battle can't be considered canon, but this is not that case.
 * If Mickey knew how to get into TWTNW, why the frigg did he and Sora have to go through the virtual Twilight Town?And why didn't he get involved to help Riku? That's not logical at all.
 * You can't just write off the differences, just because they seem small to you; the very nature of canon is such that THERE IS ONLY ONE VERSION. Even if you call this a retcon, there is still ONLY ONE VERSION THAT IS CANON. The differences matter. Everything matters. --Neumannz 14:59, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Ok how about this. Wouldn't you at least agree that the end of 358/2 Days was intended to transform Deep Dive from a speculative promotion of future ides with absolutely no story signifigance into a representation of canon events foreshadowing events after KH1? And Nomura is quoted as saying that Birth By Sleep video was intended to be a cutscene from the Birth By Sleep game.

Also you raise the question of if Riku knew how to get into TWTNW why didn't Mickey? Also, there is no definite indication that when Mickey was there in Deep Dive it was at the same time as Roxas and Riku were fighting. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 21:40, January 19, 2010 (UTC))


 * As a sidenote - the definition of "retcon" is to fill in plot holes by discarding old canon and creating new canon. If Nomura had ever said the videos were canon, they would then have been retconned, and no longer canon. As such, he gives the implication that they were never more than teasers, and then he designs scenes that, while being the fulfillment of those movies, are not the same, and are thus new canon. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:43, January 19, 2010 (UTC)

Ok, what about this. My main point is that because the videos are but a thin line away from being canon, previewing canon events in way that is only minimally changed, it's worth it to note in the article itself that Reconnect is different beause it serves as an epilogue instead of a preview, but ending the sentance there, the differences are not huge enough for it to be nessecary to point out Reconnect's canon nature as opposed to Deep Dive and Birth By Sleep. Because the events portrayed in those videos do occur, but are only slightly changed, but the article gives the impression to the inxperienced reader that the events in those videos did not happen, and therefore I vote that that tiny thought be left off of the article, ending the sentance with the fact that it's an epilogue instead of a preview. Also the way it's written saying how the others are non-canon just sounds bit awkward to me from a literary standpoint. (The-Man-Who-Laughs 00:56, January 21, 2010 (UTC))

endings
How do we know that these are trailers to two different games? I'm trying to prove to my friend that it's just one game, but he thinks one trailer is a sequel to BBS and one is a sequel to KHII.

98.211.254.96 16:47, January 18, 2010 (UTC)

well the kh ending is a sqeual to kh 2 but a older version. And the kh 2 ending is maybe a sqeual to number 3 i personaly think that they will finish kh 2 off and go back to the past maybeSora 2 05:32, January 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * ~ Well, I'm not all 'up to date' on interviews and things, but I believe that there will be another Kingdom Hearts game. There probably won't be two, and if there is one, I think it'll be set in the time After KHII. :] Ah, one can only hope... Mrsaxel 21:10, January 19, 2010 (UTC)msaxel

Debating
I wonder, what will happen from this game? What worlds will Sora travel to if this is a game? Pride Lands are a likely place, Port Royal, Land of Dragons, Agrabah, Olypmpus, Radiant Garden as well to reapear. I sort of expect to see William Van Drake too, maybe with a Emporer's new groove world, maybe a Pocahantas world or even a 101 or lady and the tramp world. Will this be a game, will this follow the rules, or will the game be in the dark realm alone.....

I'd say that Sora would have to travel to the past and help all who are connected to the so that they can live a happy life which would explain Xion, Roxas, and Axel on the clock tower although Xion and Axel were eliminated, while Roxas went back to Sora. It would also explain why Namine was shown in Castle Oblivion although she went back to Kairi. But hey, You can never guess what Kingdom Herts has in store.

":most of them would suck as actual parts(i.e. the incredibles, cars, ) because they involve no captivating story, or opporotunity for actual villians that could be corrupted by the darkness"
 * lolol what movie were you watching again—Urutapu 20:49, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Their is a sequel to the Return of jafar, when they got married, Olympus is a good world for the coliseums and such and maybe even get a world from Waverly Place or Phineas and Ferb KrspaceT 21:19, January 22, 2010 (UTC)

Wait, Prince of Persia? A world based on a movie that in turn was based on a game not made by square enix? Wut?FaythOfFenrir 20:51, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that if there is a Kingdom Hearts 3, they should put Toy Story and Wall-e. But what I'm really hoping for is for Cloud and Sephiroth to make an appearance again. But Alice and Wonderland was the worst world in the Kingdom Hearts series there ever was. Even worse than Agrabah.--Xsonicdragon 20:59, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I am pretty sure that Pixar was just bought out by Disney. Whether this will mean that there will be Pixar worlds or not, I'm not sure, but it is very possible. I believe that I read an article about how Pixar didn't really want any of their stuff in KH. Either way, I am all for a Wall-E world. Maybe even some non-disney stuff, if they could get the liscensing. Keybladesoldier93 02:10, January 24, 2010 (UTC)

Worlds and members

Agrabah, Party Member Aladdin based on Aladdin 3

Olympus, A original plot and tournaments

Port Royal; Party Member Jack based on Dead Man's chest

Neverland; Party Member Peter Pan based on Return to Neverland*

Atlantica; Party member? based on Little mermaid 2* ( Maybe time could have accelerated in these worlds, say 20 years?)

Pride Lands; Party Member Simba or Kiara based on Lion King 2

Land of Dragons; Party Member Mulan based on Mulan 2

Incan empire; Based on Emporers new Groove

Ravaged Wilderness; Party Member Alabdar based on Dinosaur

Spirited woods; Party Member Kenai Based on Brother Bear

World of Rescue; Based on Rescuers

Jamestown; Party member Pocahantas based on Pocahantas

Disney Castle

Hollow Bastion

Twilight Town

Castle Oblvion

Keyblade Graveyard

Realm of Darkness

Destiny Islands

Mini Game worlds

100 Acre wood

Musical Bayou Princess and the Frog

Disney Town emily- i hate oylumpus colisium tats been there since kh got to go!!! i like agrabahbut the same situation i don't think atlantica will be there i want most worlds from bbs to be in it

12 years
12 years? Wheres the proof of that? Aqua meeet Ansem is a year after Kingdom Hearts II which is 9-10 between BBS to KHII. --Cococrash11 07:33, January 23, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

BBS + 10 years = KH + 1 year = KHII + What Ansem said has been 1 year = Reconnect. Kingdom Hearts (12 years)

A math session with PrincessAndie8thprincessofheart-- 16:56, January 23, 2010 (UTC)

Translation Error
There's another translation of "Reconnect. Kingdom Hearts", where Terra says that he's already harbored himself in another heart (If it's not obvious, Riku's heart), not that he has another heart harbored within him. And then Xehanort says "Master Eraqus would be disappointed in you". I don't know which translation is more accurate, but the one I've seen makes a lot more sense...

Another thing is that in the other translation it explains everything much better. When Braig is talking with Terranort, he thinks that he's Master Xehanort, then thinks it might actually be Terra. Then he deduces that if he actually is Terra, he'll just kill him. Mmm122 21:49, February 14, 2010 (UTC)

What?
I'm confused. In the trailer it shows Terra and Ven at the Land of Departure saying Sora's name. But i thought that the Land of Departure was now Castle Oblivion. And i also thougtht that Ven was asleep. Can someone help me?


 * Yeah... that confused me too. Artistic licence maybe?-- Lapis of the Night  05:13, February 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's symbolic. Namine shouldn't be in Castle Oblivion and Axel, Roxas and Xion shouldn't be on the clock tower either.—Urutapu 05:18, February 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * I don't argue with your logic, Urutapu, but Namine wasn't in Castle Oblivion, she was in the Old Mansion. --Nitrous X 21:11, August 21, 2010 (UTC)

The Main Question
Now the Main Question comes in hand of this secret movie in BBS...

Is this next game be another recap or will it be the real thing and we actually get to play Sora and see what that letter means?

We all had these betweens or recap games in the Kingdom Hearts series. They all been fun to play and learn about our favorite characters, old and new. But now, I'm getting a bit tired of that and I want to know about what happened after Kingdom Hearts 2.

Hopefully, BBS was the last recap game so we can get back to the main story line.

76.237.20.101 08:03, February 23, 2010 (UTC)BlackRose09

I'm pretty sure its back to the main games. Simply because it has Sora. So i'm pretty sure we're hopefully getting back to his story. But since Aqua was a playable character(obviously) i have a feeling that if there is a new game she will also be playable and maybe to some extent so will Riku. In truth i think Aqua was meant to be the main character of BBS. Aerith Zack 18:51, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

emily- i agree i honestly hate sora amd i want to see alot more aqua it is a high chance that aqua will be playable definetly anyway aqua was the first keyblade master (in the series u seen the keyblade graveyard)

Nope, the When Aqua becomes a Keyblade Master, it was because MASTER Eraqu and MASTER Xehanort gave her and Terra a Master qualification exam. Also, MASTER Yen Sid was training Mickey. --Evnyofdeath 19:56, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Article Name Change
The name of the article needs to be changed to "Blank Points." It was revealed in the BBS Ultimania that it is the true name of the secret ending.

emily- i agree aqua should definetly be the main character of the whole story line becuz she was the first real keyblade master (in the series in bbs u seen the keyblade graveyard!) and i honestly hate sora. i love the recap games i want more playable girls maybe 1 or 2 new characters in the upcoming game

Blank Points?
Where did this come from? Glorious  CHAOS!  00:26, April 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Check the Ultimania interviews... --Neumannz 04:28, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Or check out the title in BBS' theater mode.204.211.185.107 15:51, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

But the interview said that "Blank Points" isn't necessarily the title. 24.205.43.42 17:22, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah but the theater mode was fairly clear. (also he may have meant that "Blank Points" wasn't the name of the next game.there's going to be a couple new games soon and though "another side,another story" "deep dive" and "the gathering" have not been titles "Birth by Sleep" has been. the precise context and wording as well as accurate translations are neccesary for statements by nomura.assuming he's not just bullshiting us/making it up as he goes along.)204.211.185.107 17:44, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Definite Timeframe
Is there anyway that this can be determined? Oh, and shouldn't Sora be around age 16 or 17 by KH3?Oh,how the sea calls 04:10, July 30, 2010 (UTC) -[Love You Guys]-

emily- i don't think there will be 3d unless its a movie and even then ppl don't get ur hopes up.3d was nice when it started (a year ago) but seriously now that almost everything is 3d com on! i hate it. i mean its niuce for a bit but not 4 a year.

English Video
HEY HOW TO YOU UNLOCK THE FINAL EPISODE? I BEAT ALL THEIR SCENARIOS ON PROUD MODE...AND I STILL DONT HAVE THE FINAL EPISODE FOR SOME REASON...CAN SOMEONE HELP?