Talk:Keyblade Armor

Name
When the real term for Armour appeared we'll change it immediatly. --Cococrash11 06:33, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11
 * But why are we using some apparent form of old english, hm? "Armor" is the correct spelling, unless this name has been confirmed (which you said it's not, so this shouldn't even be here). Someone give me the green light to move the page please, or have a staff member delete/move it themselves. - EternalNothingnessXIII 10:58, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

I mean't to say the japanese word armour did appear in BBS's youtube video. --Cococrash11 23:28, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

@ENX: There's already a page named "Armor", which is about something else. We'd need to call it "Armor (Birth by Sleep)" or something.-- Lapis of the Night  23:36, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

@LapisScarab: Why called Armor whats the diffrence between Armour just wondering? --Cococrash11 23:42, February 5, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11


 * Both spellings are technically correct, but we use American English on the wiki, so "Armour" is changed to "Armor" and so forth.-- Lapis of the Night  23:49, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Wait you mean Amor is the American word for armour? So Armour is British word right? --Cococrash11 00:23, February 6, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11


 * They're both English words that mean the same thing, but "Armor" is the American spelling and "Armour" is the Brittish spelling.-- Lapis of the Night  00:32, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well, I say it shouldn't stay "Keyblade Armor", it seriously should be Armor, but it's about something else-maybe it should be added to the page Armor or be called Fighting Armor, I think that could be a good idea, the Keyblade dosn't make the Armor, and Xemnas doesn't wield a Keyblade, and Xion isn't wearing armor if you ask me, it's more of an outfit change  17:14, October 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Take it up with Nomura.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  17:52, October 29, 2010 (UTC)

Form?
Armor is a From, like Valor Form, or Retro Form, right? If so, we should add it to the Form template. -- 00:39, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so Armor are like the Keyblade and it seems that Armor had feelings like the Keyblades. Like when Kingdom Key chose Riku and then decided to return to Sora. Its just my opinion. --Cococrash11 01:24, February 6, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Any other opinions? -- 17:51, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

It strikes me as more of a tool than a form. Sort of a precursor to the Gummi Ship.-- Lapis of the Night  17:53, February 6, 2010 (UTC)

Cape

 * The "latest artwork" isn't new. It's the concept artwork from before the game was even released - the stuff they specifically had to leave out because of the rendering issues. Glorious  CHAOS!  06:41, March 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * You'll also notice that Fresh Breeze has a different design in Ven's concept art, namely the "teeth" are facing the opposite direction, so it's not the final, canon design. --Neumannz 07:15, March 28, 2010 (UTC)

Capitalized
Armor (Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep)'s Armor is capitalized because its a term that needs to be capiralized like the Keyblade, Gummi Ship, and etc. --Cococrash11 06:41, February 7, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Japanese Name
Doesn't BBS Ultimania provide the Japanese name for Armor? --Cococrash11 05:25, April 14, 2010 (UTC)Cococrash11

Throwback to old FF games?
It occurred to me a week ago so I might as well say it now. Has anyone noticed that the armor worn in BBS might be somewhat of a shout out to the older Final Fantasy games where the protagonists all wore some kind of armor and capes. Every single one up to FFVII where the trend stopped. Kaihedgie 18:50, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

I looked at it as more of a Kamen Rider/Super Sentai influence. Mostly because of the Henshin factor, the slap the sholder or arm peice and transform. And Terra's Keyblade Rider is something like a motorcycle/waverunner thing. Hyperwre_2.0 06:05, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Really looks more like an original concept, not a reference to any game, as far as I can see.--Lord Captain Cecil Harvey 01:21, August 23, 2010 (UTC)

Xemnas
That could be right, but if MX had armor and he decided to don't use it any more then Xemnas should have his armor because he couldn't get it somewhere else. -- 07:01, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well, that and Nomura point-blank said he is a Keyblade wielder, and just can't remember it. Glorious  CHAOS!  23:04, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

And the only reason Roxas could use the Keyblade is because Ventus's Heart is inside of him, which is also why Roxas has emotions. you would have known this if you have payed attention to Nomura interviews and the whole storyline, but i do think you are right at some part, his armor does look a great deal like Terra's Keyblade Armor, and he also had Xehanort's, Master Xehanort's, and Terra's memories but because he did not have Terra's Heart, (Which is in the revived Xehanort will will see in KH3 according to Nomura.) and his Soul. (Which is in the Lingering Sentiment.)--My Keyblade + Your face = pwnage 23:20, September 25, 2010 (UTC)Chihuahuaman

iZerox, what you told about Ventus's heart inside Roxas. That would be crazy as Ventus's heart is inside Sora and if it would be inside Roxas too then Ventus has 2 hearts. &#123;&#123;subst:User:Secret agent clank/sig}} 06:01, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay seriously, Nomura said that, too. Ventus's heart is inside Roxas - that's not a matter for discussion. Glorious  CHAOS!  13:07, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing out that i'm right IZerox!--My Keyblade + Your face = pwnage 15:56, September 26, 2010 (UTC)Chihuahuaman

Not in use

 * It's still part of the armor, and that's what it looks like when the armor is not in use. Even though it's possible for the armor to be left somewhere else or taken off (Terra-Xehanort v Lingering Sentiment, for example). It doesn't say "the armor turns into only this when not in use". Glorious  CHAOS!  15:03, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

FM armor
Whether or not Eraqus is in it, it is Eraqus's armor. The mere fact that it has his Keyblade is proof of that - given canon is that only he and Aqua have held that Keyblade, and she doesn't wear that armor. There is no speculation in saying, "This is Eraqus's Keyblade Armor." The actual situation of the boss fight (or whether it's an actual fight) is what's uncertain. Glorious  CHAOS!  20:36, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Keyblade Armor
shouldn't it be Keyblade Warrior Armor? I mean it's not Armor for the Keyblade, and it's not made from Keyblades, but it is Armor that Keyblade Warriors wear and it's appearance seems to vary on Rank, as Terra, Aqua and Ventus all look similar while Eraqus has a different, similar, but different look showing a higher rank? Zachariah Zuan 20:49, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Keyblade Armor is the term used in the series. We didn't make it up or anything. Glorious  CHAOS!  23:01, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * ah alright then, was just checking Zachariah Zuan 14:11, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Xion

 * Well, it's armor, it's similar, and she's a Keyblade wielder. So, we cover it, saying "something resembling Keyblade Armor". Glorious  CHAOS!  15:01, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Keyblade Master Xemnas?
"It's possible Xemnas intentionally wasn't using a Keyblade."

Wait, I don't get it. He wanted a Keyblade for his big plan. The Organization basically sat there twiddling their thumbs until Sora finally went Heartless so they could have one. Why wouldn't he use it? Especially with its tremendous powers?Neo Bahamut 23:47, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he's a Star Wars fan. :D Just kidding, maybe he had the power to use a Keyblade, but didn't know he had the power to use a Keyblade. And what did you mean when you said that Xemnas abandons the armor? Xemnas never goes into space by my memory, and Mickey had a Gummi block. 66.215.20.249 23:59, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Ironically, I'd just made a section below on that very thing. That's partially my fault. I often use "Xehanort" instead of "Master Xehanort." In Master Xehanort's reports, he says he travelled the Lanes Between without armor. Admittedly, Mickey can be handwaved with "magic Gummi Block thingy," which is why I didn't include him below.

What stands out to me, though, is that Nomura says "intentionally." I had been assuming myself that he just didn't know that he could. But that's not "intentional." It's mind-boggling, really. Does he say anything else about this?Neo Bahamut 00:03, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe Darkness allowed MX to breathe. And Nomura did say it's possible Xemnas wasn't using the Keyblade intentionally, which doesn't rule out the possibility of him not knowing that he could use it. 66.215.20.249 00:14, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) He used the Black Coat, I'm pretty sure he even says so.
 * 2) "It's possible there's another person inside Xemnas who doesn't WANT him to use the Keyblade, even if he can."(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:36, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I remember no mention of the black coat. That would also be weird, considering it protects against darkness too. I do remember he was wearing it at the beginning, but I assumed he just didn't want anyone spotting him. Also, is that quote in the article? If not, can I put it in?Neo Bahamut 07:05, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm. It might be in the Ultimania, or it might be OR, then. Still, that's what the coat is for - to allow you to dive into darkness without being devoured by it.
 * No no no no. That quote was me being extremely sardonic, not something from the games. I was just saying the implication is that Terra's heart is within Xemnas, hence him calling Aqua's armor "friend" and behaving oddly.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  15:09, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Avoiding Edit Wars
Why were some of my changes reverted? If we mention characters like Xion & Xemnas, we should mention Eraqus, who's definitely using Keyblade Armor. Additionally, why is there any reason to believe it's impossible to breathe in the Lanes Between? It's not like ordinary space. Monstro's hung out there just fine & Xehanort says he travelled it with no armor.Neo Bahamut 00:00, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe it is like ordinary space, and Monstro was just affected by Darkness which allows him to breathe. 66.215.20.249 00:08, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Dude, seriously, it's your word against Nomura's. >_> maggosh 00:12, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Whose word? Mine or Neo Bahamut's? 66.215.20.249 00:15, November 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Neo Bahamut's. maggosh 00:18, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. 66.215.20.249 00:38, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

I didn't see a single thing in any of the games that said you can't breathe in the Lanes Between. Or any references, for that matter. As a matter of fact, I saw plenty of evidence to the contrary. So, I don't see how this is "my word against Nomura's."Neo Bahamut 01:46, November 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * I meant about Xemnas using the Keyblade. maggosh 01:57, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh. Well, I still wouldn't call that "my word versus his," because I'm basically asking what the Hell he's talking about. Also, as someone else pointed out, he could be misleading us to some degree.Neo Bahamut 02:08, November 4, 2010 (UTC)

Remove Xemnas and Xion
other than pure speculation, this isspecifically referring to "Keyblade Armor". A huge difference between TAV, Master Eraqus from Xemnas and Xion. Both Xemnas and Xion never wielded their keyblades in their armor form. Xemnas had a sword. Xion had monster like weapons that differed from keyblades each time and in the end also resembled swords but with a trinity spike at the top.Bijinder 00 01:53, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

This has already been discussed, look further up the page. 01:58, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

It's pure speculation on both parts though. YOu guys strive for the best right? THen why not have exact detail? NOt false pretenses>Bijinder 00 02:06, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

To restate, to say they're "similar to Keyblade armor" isn't really that big of a deal.75.195.123.213 02:51, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

that discussion was going lazily. Especially Xion's. Being discussed before, doesn't mean they met a discussion.Bijinder 00 05:04, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * So, you didn't read it at all. maggosh 05:09, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * I read it all. if you say i didn't then show some evidence. For one, Xion resembles alot more than an unverse than a keyblade armor. now, this might get into question, but let's compare shall we.

trinity armor= http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Trinity_Armor.png

xion's final form=http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Xion_Armor_4.png

Aqua's armor=http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/File:Aqua_armor.png

Now i know you're technically stating it but it still says it could be in xemnas section stating "what appears to be" is like saying "it might be",. As for Xion's section it states she's wielding keyblades, which in her 1st-final form she isn't. I say Xion resembles more of a heartless or an unversed rather than keyblade armor. For Xemnas, it could be worded more directly, by stating it just resembles itBijinder 00 05:49, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, you didn't read the above discussion. maggosh 05:51, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with you on the bit about Xemnas and changed the wording slightly. Xion's section does not say she's using actual Keyblades; it says "Keyblades" in quotations, which, if you were unaware, is indicative that they are not actual Keyblades, they are simply similar to them. Also, why did you link to a picture of the Trinity Armor? You are aware that has nothing to do with this at all, right?05:59, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

I dont care what you say. everything you say onward will be ignored.

as for lapisScarab, it's god to know you agreed on Xemnas, but for Xion, i would say we have to be more "Direct". Since, this is a wikia. I put the picture of trinity armor to show a bigger resemblance to them, instead of keyblade armor.Bijinder 00 06:05, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Saying it resembles Trinity Armor is speculating. Double standards are fun, aren't they? maggosh 06:08, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * How do you propose we be more "direct" about that? "BY THE WAY, THESE AREN'T REAL KEYBLADES. I KNOW THAT'S WHY IT'S IN QUOTES, BUT I WANT TO BE SURE YOU'RE NOT ILLITERATE." I've told you before, our readers aren't stupid. The fact that "Keyblades" is in quotations means that they are not actually Keyblades.06:09, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

There really isn't a resemblance between Xion's armor and the Trinity Armor, certainly not a greater one than between Xion's armor and Keyblade Armor. I would say there is a bit of resemblance with the Armor of the Master, though... -- 06:10, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

the only way i am agreeing with Bijinder in any sort, type, fashion, which, way, or form is that if we're just mentioning the similarities between Xemnas' and Xion's armor to Keyblade Armor, then we should at least take the images out of the List of Armors section and into their respective sections, because since the name "List of Amors" seems to imply list of Keyblade Armors so it could tend to be really confusing-- 06:21, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

@LapisScarab, that's not the point. You can just say "sword-like weapons" instead of "keyblades" in quotation. You're making it more difficult than it is. It's the tone that's the problem. It sounds like it's been done by a fan, not a professional on the matter, Also has that "convincing" tone too, such as "it may be this and this but in reality it is this and this" or sometimes you guys say something like "THis character resembles some-what this characters personality". and yes we are fans, but still, the idea is to sound formal as possible. it just gives it "personality" and i dont think it should be on here.

@Neumannz, i think Master of the Armor has a less of a resemblance than Trinity Armor, at least Trinity armor has the same color scheme as Sora kh1, the same as Xion (final form). I guess i could see a similarity though, that only being the three points on the head, but i think, Xion is more crown like while Armor of the Master is more like wings. Another big difference is Xion's head is more hollow in final form, while TAV AotM have a more helmet.Bijinder 00 06:28, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * What? A similar color scheme can hardly be called a resemblance--and keep in mind that the Trinity Armor will most likely be recolored in BBSFM. Xion's armor, on the other hand, is stylized similarly to a Keyblade Armor: Note the helmet, especially with its face and jaw, and the boots and gloves. If anything, it's designed as an amalgam of Sora's clothes and Keyblade Armor. -- 06:35, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong whatsoever with using quotations in that manner, and if you had any grasp of English you would know that. It's no less professional that saying "sword-like" (in fact, tacking on "-like" is a juvenile way to describe something in my opinion). Change it if you want, but I'm not going to.

Also, the Trinity Armor has nothing to do with this. Drop it, you're diverting the whole reason you started this pointless and redundant debate.06:36, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

I'm a little late saying this, but I wouldn't start ignoring people if i were you, we'll remember that next time you want to try and debate smoething, ans roundabout's fair play-- 06:39, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Xion's outfit in her final battle is clearly armor, and she is clearly wielding Keyblades. The fact that the armor is similar to Sora's clothing only serves to further the link, as the BbS heroes' armors all take pieces from their clothes. Xemnas's armor is also extraordinarily similar to Terra's, and the main difference is the "King" details that were added to it.
 * To be rigorous, though, I would definitely suggest moving Xemnas and Xion's images to their sections. Until they are explicitly said to be Keyblade Armors, they are simply related concepts, and should be treated as such.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:44, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * {rubs ear thoughtfully} I guess we probably don't need to give them a separate section, since they're very clearly related... -- 06:50, December 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * As in just moving them to their respective story sections where they're mentioned, not making all new sections for them-- 07:00, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Correct. What you did is fine. -- 07:02, December 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * scarab, i'm not saying it's wrong in general, but it is a bit more juvenile, to use quotations as a way of implication. the point is to be blunt about it. Sword-like weapons is different, because it's more direct than sarcastically add "keyblades". And i would say that trinity armor was more of an example. So dont get so hurt about it.


 * @kryten, I'm trying to say it's clearly isn't "Keyblade Armor". Xion resembled Kurt Zisa in her third form, i'm sure her form was more related to Sora's memories, then actual armor, if you look at her first-third form, her weapons and add-on accessories to her seem to have the motif of the worlds they're fighting in. a big difference between TAV from Xemnas and Xion is that Xemnas and Xion use it more as a form, like if they were the armor themselves, but TAV actually wear the armor.


 * @Neumanns, how "clear" is it?Bijinder 00 02:02, December 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Forgot to sign in. my bad.


 * I just want them out. it doesn't seem like there's a legit reason why we should keep them unless nomura specifically stated he based their design off of it. I think, if we start doing this, we're going to allow connections that aren't really there. Or imply them.Bijinder 00 02:23, December 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * But you understand what i'm trying to say. If we allow assumptions to govern reasoning, then we can add anything as long as the assumption meets the given situation.


 * Xion wasn't, Terra? well it's debatable, not really something concrete on him considering some believe is he's from Master Xehanort memories, while others think he's based off of Terra's (not that I'm saying he isn't from Terra) but the similarities are pretty vague considering it doesn't really give a similarity, just states that they are similar. to me, there's a big difference between the two. Xion is much more metallic and Xemnas was more suit-like mixed with a motif of a king. But i also see more vagueness when i read the beginning of these sections. so i guess that's more of a reason for me because of the way they're written. Do you see it? (I dont try to put a comma, it just happens by accident. sorry about that)Bijinder 00 02:40, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

How clear? Obviously not clear enough for the most dense of people, the kind who make the same complaints and arguments over and over, long after they've been addressed. But it's infinitely closer than a resemblance to Trinity Armor, which is far less humanoid than Xion. -- 02:51, December 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree on Xemnas, but again, debates and no complete confirmation of who's nobody xemnas is, terra or xehanorts (possibly both) causes scandal. As for Ven's memories that was never proven (i think). But it's been such a long time since i played days, the only time i remember when she collapsed was when she was seeing memories of Riku in chain of memories. Worded like speculation isn't what i'm talking about. I'm talking about adding extra that isn't directly related to the topic because of speculation. But i guess wording would help out a lot more in seeing this more pasable. Such as the beginning of each sentence starts out like it was talking in the middle instead of the beginning. i think we can be much more blunt than that. Such as "Aqua's armor Appears in kingdom hearts two, when Xemnas...." you see what i mean?


 * As for nuemanns, I'm trying to say, we should add anything just because we think it's right, we should add things because we "know". we don't know if there is a connection, and nothing has implied it directly. It isn't "clear" until it's confirmed in-game, in a gameguide description, or in an interview.Bijinder 00 03:06, December 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) Xemnas is apprentice Xehanort's Nobody.
 * 2) Xion possesses memories of Ventus.
 * 3) Apprentice Xehanort was a Keyblade wielder, he just didn't know it or chose not to use it.
 * These are all facts, stated explicitly by Nomura.
 * Xemnas and Xion clearly wear armor in these forms. This is undeniable.
 * Per (1) and Nomura saying that Nobodies possess all the abilities of their originals, including Keyblades, Xemnas is a Keyblade wielder, even if he never uses one and doesn't know he can.
 * Xemnas's armor possesses most of the motifs that Terra's does, along with the added ermine, cloak, and crowns. Whatever unique armor he is wearing, it can fairly be assumed to be highly relevant.
 * Per Xion being a Keyblade wielder and wearing armor, as well as possessing memories of Ventus, whatever unique armor she is wearing in all of her forms, armor which possesses all of the known markers of Keyblade Armor, can fairly be assumed to be highly relevant.
 * Being highly relevant allows us to cover the info here. That's how articles work. If we only allowed sentences in which Nomura said "Keyblade Armor", we would not be able to write an article.
 * However, by no means is this proof that those two armors are Keyblade Armors. Although they are relevant and absolutely should be covered on this page, all reasonable* efforts should be made to make sure that the article does not give false implications.


 * "Reasonable" here meaning "anyone with basic reading capability and literacy should be able to understand the difference.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  03:31, December 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Like i said, this is all based on assumptions, not knowledge at all.


 * I don't quite remember him saying that. When did he say that? they seem to have similar abilities, such as Lea's Frisbee and Chakram. And i dont see the resemblance because it's not stated. Sure they're both "armor" thats as close as they're going to get, but i dont see it resembling keyblade armor. Nobodies in their unique forms such as marluxia can take any shape. But i guess the head is the only thing that i see any resemblance. As for Xion, first, she technically never was a real keyblade wielder, her keyblade was also fake but all the abilities were real apparently. two, she wasn't "wearing" armor, she was the armor, if you actually look at it carefully. it's impossible for her to wear such a tiny thing, and later command such a giant armor. And again, no one seems to actually give proof that she has memories of ventus. And what are "markers" (not 100% fluent in english, but i'm pretty sure, that word is being used a lil too vaguely here) for keyblade armor?Bijinder 00 04:03, December 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The citations for those quotes are already on this wiki. Furthermore, you are arguing explicitly from a place of ignorance (you have not read the applicable interviews or sources, and refuse to do so), so you bring nothing to the table. You are spamming this page and impeding the work of this wiki, and you will receive an official warning if you continue to spam this page.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  04:49, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not refusing anything here, i just don't know where that specific information is in an interview but i assume you're making this up considering i found nothing on Xion's page regarding ventus's memories, and nothing on Nobody and Organization 13 page regarding the weapons, i already read most of the interviews, and i usually get updates on information through email. So right now, i say your answers are in question.Bijinder 00 05:29, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

No Heart
I'll be honest with you, No Heart being Master Xehanort's armor is pretty much speculation based soley on him using Master Xehanort's keyblade. With Armor of the Master, the name itself suggests that it is Eraqus's armor, as well as it's use of Eraqus icon and it fitting with the "samurai" theme he seems to have. "No Heart" is more vague a name, sure you can get "No Heart" out of Xehanort, but it also refers to Xemnas, who as a Nobody has no heart and is the character this boss seems to be referencing. In fact, this is probably why the name was used for this particular boss. Since we don't know what No Heart actually is (if it is actually anything, for all we know it could be a noncanon bonus boss who's journal entry is vague and doesn't reveal anything), we shouldn't be pasting in every article we can that it is Master Xehanort's or Xehanort's armor. (even if it likely is) At the current moment, the armor is only confirmed as Xemnas's armor and as a bonus boss who uses Xehanort's Keyblade.--Otherarrow 01:22, December 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * "No Heart" is a term that Nomura has specifically said Xehanort's name means.
 * Xemnas wears the exact damn armor. By virtue of wielding a Keyblade, it is Keyblade Armor.
 * It wields Xehanort's Keyblade.
 * All bonus bosses are and always have been canon. Any suggestion otherwise is fan-wank, and Nomura has consistently refuted such absurd claims.

01:28, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aren't you the rude one? Anyway, you forgot one important thing: these bonus bosses are in the Mirage Arena, which doesn't seem to exist within Birth By Sleep's narrative, and is used for bonus missions and mutiplayer. There has never been a situation where there was a entire world that was "noncanon" (or the closest that a playable world can get I supposs. I don't really want to argue with you over whether or not the Mirage Arena is canon) and thus no need to confirm any individual boss in such a world as canon or not.
 * But that was not my point. My point is, we do not know that this is Xehanort's armor. We know it's Xemnas's armor. We know it uses Xehanort's Keyblade. That's it. We know that M. Xehanort used to use armor, but discarded it before the game began. Is it this armor? Who knows. We know that Xemnas might be able to use the Keyblade. How is that last fact relevant? It's a boss blatantly referencing Xemnas that uses a Keyblade. You can speculate and fanwank that Xemnas's armor, despite having the Nobody symbol pasted all over it, is somehow M. Xehanort's discarded armor and that ten years ago that armor magically showed up to fight the heroes despite the dubious canonicity of the area in which the battle actually takes place in, but I will not allow you to be posting your fanwank theories throughout the Wiki without something concrete to back it up first. Forgive me, and good day to you.--Otherarrow 01:57, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * "these bonus bosses are in the Mirage Arena, which doesn't seem to exist within Birth By Sleep's narrative, and is used for bonus missions and mutiplayer." - complete speculation, and not supported by precedent.
 * "There has never been a situation where there was a entire world that was "noncanon"" - case in point.
 * "My point is, we do not know that this is Xehanort's armor." see following.
 * "We know it's Xemnas's armor." - who is Xehanort's Nobody.
 * "We know it uses Xehanort's Keyblade." - which means it either has or is derived from Xehanort's heart.
 * "We know that M. Xehanort used to use armor, but discarded it before the game began." - ahyuk.
 * "We know that Xemnas might be able to use the Keyblade." - Specifically, the Keyblade he has because he was Xehanort.
 * "despite having the Nobody symbol pasted all over it" - It has the thorns, which also appear on Sora's crown and the Oblivion's keychain. Regardless, the Nobody emblem is specifically derived from a rejection of the Keyblade Master emblem, which Xehanort explicitly denigrated when he cast away the armor as an apprentice. It is Xehanort's mark, much like the Heartless emblem is the royal crest of Hollow Bastion (ie, Ansem the Wise, the "source of all Heartless" (and yes, I get that that was a facetious title)). It belongs to the Nobodies no more than the Heartless belong to the Way to the Dawn, or the clothes of Ansem's apprentices belong to the Ultima Weapon.
 * "ten years ago that armor magically showed up to fight the heroes" - your suggestion seems to be that it time traveled, too.

So:
 * It has Xehanort's name, as confirmed by Nomura.
 * It has Xehanort's Keyblade.
 * Xehanort is confirmed to have had Keyblade Armor.
 * Xehanort is depicted wearing this exact armor as a Nobody.

02:13, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

It occurs to me that it's unlikely that his armor looked like that when he was an apprentice, but then again, there's no way Eraqus's armor looked like that when he was an apprentice, so that's not a big deal. But it does kinda beg the question of what caused them to change to those forms. (Damn, there better be a bloody Ultimania for this...) -- 02:31, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * " Regardless, the Nobody emblem is specifically derived from a rejection of the Keyblade Master emblem, which Xehanort explicitly denigrated when he cast away the armor as an apprentice. It is Xehanort's mark, much like the Heartless emblem is the royal crest of Hollow Bastion (ie, Ansem the Wise, the "source of all Heartless" (and yes, I get that that was a facetious title)). It belongs to the Nobodies no more than the Heartless belong to the Way to the Dawn, or the clothes of Ansem's apprentices belong to the Ultima Weapon."
 * So let me get this straight, you use one fanwank theory to justify your support of another? Unless there was some Nomura interview that I missed that isn't cited anywhere on the Wiki, there is no proof that the Nobody symbol was Xehanort's mark or that it even existed before the creation of Nobodies. (If I recall correctly, Nomura confirmed that the Heartless symbol was actually the mark of Xehanort and the other apprentices, but that was Terra-Xehanort and not Master Xehanort.)
 * The fact is, this is a bonus boss introduced with no context who references Xemnas and has Xehanort's Keyblade. Is it Master Xehanort's long discarded armor that decided to show up for unexplained reasons? Probably. Is it Master Xehanort's Nobody formed from when he discarded his old body when he possessed Terra? Possibility. Stupid fanwank theory? Oh yes. But I am not going to put that all over the Wiki, because it is a fanwank theory made on the spot in hype of a newly announced boss, just like your theory is. I know you guys are excited about this, but you can't jump to conclusions, no matter how obvious they may be to you. This is not the fanon wiki. Unless things are confirmed by the games, or by official sources, they don't belong here, no matter how convincing they seem in your head. I am sorry that you are so heated and bullheaded in support of your little theory, but let's wait for more facts before we go around declaring what "No Heart" really is. Deal?--Otherarrow 02:48, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure no one ever said the Heartless symbol was the symbol of Xehanort and the apprentices. -- 02:52, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * The names of the castle rooms, as well as those items you find to open the emblem door in Hollow Bastion show the Heartless emblem to be Hollow Bastion's crest.
 * Otherarrow: what fanwank theory am I using? In the Ultimania, Nomura specifically says that the Nobody emblem was created from Xehanort's memories as the opposite of the Keyblade master emblem. There is absolutely no reason to assume that it is unique to Nobodies (which is the opposite of a fanwank theory, by the way). 02:57, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kryten: If he said that, then why has no one else with access to the Ultimania ever brought it up or added it to the Wiki in some way? Why haven't you? I'll be honest, I don't trust your honesty concerning your sources. And, since you didn't mention you had a source for this at all, it came off as a random guess of yours as to why the Nobody symbol exists.
 * Neumannz: Like I said, if I recalled correctly. I apprently didn't, so that's that. Mistakes happen. Thank you.--Otherarrow 03:06, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...are you...are you serious? Have you read the Birth by Sleep Ultimania? Here. No, I didn't explicitly cite my claims at the beginning, because I assumed you had basic knowledge of the material. 03:14, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

It's in the "20 Mysteries" section: Question 9. -- 03:24, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Neumannz:Thank you again. You have been very kind.
 * Kryton: I am sorry to not reach your expectations, but I do not read Japanese. The translations that I originally read omitted (or simply haven't gotten to for whatever reason) the fact about the symbols, and thus I had no knowledge of them. My apologies. However, I find it quite rude of you to assume everyone has intricate knowledge of every part of a guidebook written in a foreign language. I must ask again though, if you know this, why not add it to the Wiki? If you added it to the Wiki in the first place instead of hiding it like it was some trump card, this part of our argument could have been avoided.
 * Also, did we agree to keep the various theories out of the mainspace for now, or did you hope I'd forget by changing the subject?--Otherarrow 03:35, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Otherarrow: in response to "why I totally used it as a trump card, and not at all as evidence to back up my argument" - why haven't you gotten off your lazy ass and finished all the card articles, and uploaded all the world summaries from the journals in the KH games? I know you have access to the info, so what's your excuse? I'm forced to assume that you must be some kind of anti-wiki monster, for hiding all this information from us.
 * It's pictures. Pictures, for got's sake.
 * That section in particular was published on all major KH fansites, with translations. You specifically mentioned something from that same section above (about Xemnas being able to use a Keyblade). 03:54, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sorry to waste your time. Indeed it has pictures. I had a major "derp moment" and couldn't get the meaning. I'll be honest, I don't frequent this Wiki often. Most of my facts about Kingdom Hearts are misremembered details from months old sources and thus would be probably reverted for being, well, wrong. I am holding nothing back. The reason I acted here is because I legitimately believed you were jumping the gun on connecting a theory, even if a plauseable one, to a recently announced boss without proof to back it up other than your own observations. I still disagree with your inclusion of this theory, but you have shown me (and clarified, in a rude way which I deserve) why you think this theory is ironclad, and I will trust your judgment.--Otherarrow 04:28, December 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I apologize for getting rude - it was a failure on my part. 04:30, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Kryton: The evidence you brought to prove the symbol the nobodies uses is master Xehanort actully said that it came from Terranort's memory of the mark of mastery(the part where he mentions the symbol is he is talking about Xemnas and Terranort's memories) and in that very article the symbol is refer to as the nobody's mark by Nomura himself. I believe it would be best to wait until the final mix or hopefully a final mix ultimania come out before we start labeling No Heart as Master Xehanort's Keyblade armor, and on a final note I actually believe your extremly solid theory, but it still doesn't mean it should be treated as fact until Nomura confirms it, and no, anagrams are not confirmations.--Masgrande 03:08, December 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Good thing we have an anagram to confirm it, then. maggosh 03:26, December 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Again, an anagram is not a confirmation, Nomura said no heart and another are two canon anagrams but that doesn't mean we are going to change Another Side, Another Story to Xehanort Side, Xehanort Story just beacause it has the word another and Xemnas is in it.--Masgrande 03:49, December 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * Oh, that's what you meant. I just thought because you said "no anagrams are not confirmations" that, inversely, we needed an anagram for a confirmation. maggosh 04:01, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then we remove "Armor of the Master" as well. Both of these bosses have the exact same qualities linking them to their respective master (in fact, Xehanort has more, since we've seen him wear that armor as Xemnas), so if the wiki is truly, truly unwilling to say that it's Xehanort's Keyblade Armor, we have to treat Eraqus's the same. 05:08, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

Maggosh:Sorry, I screw that one up with my suckish punctuation, again sorry;p. Kryton:I actually see no problem with that, but I don't want to get into an edit war so I'm going to back off for now and just discuss it here.--Masgrande 07:21, December 26, 2010 (UTC)