Talk:Dark Figure

Ability section
Should it have an ability section? After all he can disconnect from Xehanort's body and attack for itself--Xabryn 20:33, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * If we haven't gotten an official name from BBS, then I don't think we should be calling it "Guardian". Furthermore, if we can definitely prove that World of Chaos is the guardian, we should just merge the two articles.
 * However, the end of Kingdom Hearts clearly has the World of Chaos exploding, so it would make it odd that Riku and Ansem resummon the thing in the next three games. Glorious  CHAOS!  22:21, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but we have enough evidence on the contrary that it's the "Guardian." If more than half its appearances call it so... True, that is a tad akward, but it's the same Guardian over and over again. You could say its Re:CoM and CoM versions are memory-based considering Ansem was defeated and it was Riku's memories given form that were troubling him. The Guardian, you could say, was merely a side-effect of the Riku-Ansem ordeal, and as for the World of Chaos, it's as much a part of it AND an original character as Xehanort's Heartless is. I see no sense in such a merge, while at the same time, I do. Now I'm confused... - EternalNothingnessXIII 22:27, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

A few stuff on this....
Regardless of what the Guardian is, it should be mentioned that Terranort is not able to summon it until turning Master Xehanort's Keyblade onto himself and releasing one of the hearts he was harboring within. But it really would make sense for the Guardian to be the Heartless of Master Xehanort. Terranort uses Master Xehanort's Keyblade for two reasons:

1. Terra's armor, the Lingering Sentiment, retains Terra's emotions and Keyblade.

2. Master Xehanort's heart is controlling Terra's body, thus Terranort wields Master Xehanort's Keyblade.

With this in mind, when Terranort turns Master Xehanort's Keyblade onto himself, a heart is very clearly released, Master Xehanort's Keyblade disappears and the Guardian emerges from the Darkness. Once Terranort and the Guardian are defeated, the Guardian begins to fade back into the Darkness, but drags Terra with it. Then Aqua chases them into the dark and uses her Keyblade and armor to send Terra back to the Realm of Light. From there Terra has forgotten his memories and begins a new life as 'Xehanort.' This also would explain why Xehanort can no longer summon a Keyblade:

1. Terra's Keyblade belongs to the Lingering Sentiment.

2. Master Xehanort has become a Heartless.

3. Master Aqua now uses Master Eraqus' Keyblade, whose heart resides within Xehanort.

The last part is what would become of the Guardian, if it truly is Master Xehanort's Heartless. Because Terra's heart was so open to dark influences and Pureblood Heartless are the darkness found within hearts brought to life, perhaps the Guardian slithered back into Terra's body and then into his heart. Here it would sync with the Darkness within Terra's heart so when Xehanort would become a Heartless, the Heartless would be Terra and Master Xehanort's.XYZ. 04:26, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, there is some speculation, but what we know to be true is that Terranort used Master Xehanort's Keyblade to release a heart from Terra's body, thus causing Xehanort's Keyblade to disappear and the Guardian materialized. This is fact and should be stated on the page.XYZ. 04:29, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

But it isn't revealed, which heart he released, is it?

Game Template
Is the template above the page supposed to be in the chronological order of the story or the order in which the games were release?Masgrande 05:19, January 20, 2010 (UTC)

Render

 * Nope. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:43, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Similarities in attacks?
Shouldn't it be safe to say that the two energy balls the Guardian "throws" across the floor at you and coming up from the ground multiple times creating small shockwaves appear in all of BBS, KH1, and both versions of KH:COM? I am SERIOUSLY seeing similarities with these two attacks in all three "incarnations" of the Guardian, regardless of who uses it. Does anyone agree with me? Zack M.173.218.30.240 23:01, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Check the opening paragraph of the "Abilities" section. 23:10, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Not only attacks, it is also slightly similar to Darkside. It has the heart-hole in it, and looks like a tinier, upgraded version of it.

Why is it referred to as...
A symbiote? A) That is a Spiderman Universe Term B) It is used in the wrong context anyways... ( So can I go and change it? I would right now but I don't know what to call it. Hige unari 18:21, February 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's a real term. So, no. Not unless you can find a more appropriate term. -- 18:36, February 28, 2011 (UTC)

Heartless or not?
Is there any sure evidence whether or not the Guardian is a Heartless, or just a creature of Darkness?

Because before BBS was released, this thing was called a Heartless, and it does resemble Neoshadows an awful lot, not to mention we do know that Pureblood Heartless existed before Xehanort became Ansem. Where did the idea come from that the Guardian was NOT a Heartless?

I'm just asking out of curiosity. --88.195.19.59 22:27, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * It's obviously a Heartless, it looks like a pureblood and is composed out of the same stuff as one as well as the fact that it has a hollow heart and is attached to a Heartless and a Heartless battleship.--58.7.111.194 11:41, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Same thing, obviously a Heartless cauz it has got the same appearance as the pureblood ones. -- http://www.pokepedia.fr/images/4/40/Miniat_Braviaggron.png Bravi  aggron  15:32, 15 November 2014 (UTC)


 * If it is a Heartless, how come it's never been classified as one in any official media? 97.81.38.40 16:10, 15 November 2014 (UTC) Rex Ronald Rilander

World of Chaos and Heartless

 * 1) Do we have any evidence for the World of Chaos and the guardian being the same? If so, this should just be merged to "World of Chaos". If not, then we shouldn't be implying they are.
 * 2) Why are we claiming this is not a Heartless? It is an integral part of a being that is explicitly a Heartless (Ansem SoD), and Riku can summon it because he contains traces of that Heartless within him. If there's no specific evidence calling it "not a Heartless", then it makes no sense to me to claim it is not. If this is a discussion we've had in the past, can someone link me to it? 03:43, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * What about its appearance in BBS? -- 05:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It appeared alongside Terra-Xehanort after Xehanort had cast his heart from his body. If the Secret Ansem Reports make any sense, they'd indicate that that means he became a Heartless, right? I mean, it's made of darkness and has a huge heart-shaped hole in his chest, and always appears symbiotically with Xehanort's cast-off heart, or those harboring it. 07:25, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this thing is a Heartless, it is clearly not a part of Terranort, as it attempted to drag him into the Realm of Darkness and is able to attack on it's own, if this thing does not get to be classified as a Heartless, then the Unnamed Heartless should not get to be either. We presume that the Unnamed Heartless is a Heartless because it looks like a Heartless (having yellow eyes and similar colouration), the Guardian should be presumed to be one too.--Vanitas (talk) 10:30, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this is something that needs canon confirmation first. We don't know the exact mechanics that created the guardian (and we probably never will, since it isn't an important plot point as anything other than something that indicates Xehanort's darkness). Pink Agaricus (talk) 18:42, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, considering the cutscene after Riku defeats Ansem in KH3D, I suspect that the Guardian will become a plot point in the future. -- 18:57, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, yeah. Maybe. KHIII is supposed to be the definitive end to the Xehanort story, so we'll see. Pink Agaricus (talk) 19:03, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Honestly, considering how long it's been appearing without further elucidation, I'd wager that SE just thought that noone could possibly be confused about it being a Heartless. I mean, it's introduced as the shadow of the king of the Heartless, and has every hallmark we could detect beyond the incontrovertible (and not occurring) question of what happens when it is slain. 23:50, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * One could likewise easily argue that they never thought people would take "thing attached to Ansem or Xehanort" as anything further than face value, though. Pink Agaricus (talk) 00:18, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Doubtful considering how complex the plot of Kingdom Hearts has become, with the Guardian appearing alongside Xehanort in almost every installment. As a said, if we do not consider this a Heartless, then we can not consider the Unnamed Heartless as a Heartless.--Vanitas (talk) 11:03, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I really don't know why you keep bringing that up. Nobody doubts that it's a Heartless and there's no reason to. The guardian has completely different circumstances. Pink Agaricus (talk) 17:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
 * They harp on what kind of thing everyone is all the time; though. They even take time to clarify that the Spirit of the Mirror became an Unversed; it makes no sense that they would assume that everyone would see the guardian, attached to a Heartless, as "just some being like the Genie or something". 17:33, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

So we should probably change the page from saying a "Dark Entity similar to a Pureblood Heartless" to "a Pureblood Heartless".--Vanitas (talk) 08:56, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No. In the absence of citable evidence, we'd need consensus to go out on a limb like that, and we don't have it. The entity isn't a denizen of the Realm of Darkness, so we can't say it as a certainty as with the UH, and we never see it slain so we can't use the defining characteristics of the Heartless. Although it seems obvious, we're going to have to wait for either an explicit statement or for the community to change its mind.
 * That being said, we don't have to wait for KH3 to try and get that defining statement. Anybody who can try to get contacts with SE, or can find any info in the Ultimanias, have at it. 13:32, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
 * We have seen it "slain"... kind of... - twice within DDD - first time after defeating Ansem (Second form), and second time when Donald/Goofy arrive at TWTNW and smash it on the head.--Vanitas (talk) 10:58, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
 * It's clearly made of darkness, but it's not slain. It just vanishes, and for our purposes we need to know whether, when destroyed, it releases a heart or fades into darkness. 22:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * And why wouldn't it be a heartless ? We've enough proofs that it is. And SE indeed does think the fact that it's a heartless is obvious for everyone. 20:08, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I think we can all agree it's a Heartless, right? 22:45, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
 * I can agree. I hope the Guardian does get explained in KHIII so we can actually say for sure.
 * As for the first point, about the guardian and World of Chaos being one in the same and merging the two pages: personally I think it's more like the guardian is a part of the World of Chaos just like Ansem is, so I don't think merging is necessary. Also keep in mind that the World of Chaos page is already a Game: tab on the Ansem Seeker of Darkness page, so merging the two would probably be difficult anyway. Blackchaos27 (talk) 01:32, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Opening Paragraph vs. Article Title - Capitalization
This has been bothering me for a while: the article title capitalizes the "g" in "guardian," but the opening paragraph does not. Is there a reason for the lack of consistency? - 10:22, 3 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The article title is presumably going along "every word must be capitalized", which I personally don't agree with, but it is what it is. Personally, I would prefer a lowercase "g", so that properly-spelled links to this page do not need to be piped. 15:11, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Since we've never had an officially confirmed name, there isn't really any reason to keep it capitalized. -- 16:49, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Neumz-senpai has a point. I don't see the problem of going with the lowercase "g".-- 02:04, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Novel
The Novel describes the entity, calling it "[Ansem's] shadow". This page calls it alternately "the monster behind [Ansem]" and "Terra's phantom". Do you think we could split the difference among these and call this "Xehanort's shadow"? 14:23, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

Sure, I don't see a problem with it. After all, the page's name isn't official. If there is an official source out there, then we use the term they use.-- 21:42, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think we shouldn't. Apart from the fact that the novel isn't considered canon, the novel also doesn't name any Heartless in it. It just describes how they look. 06:51, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I'm always hesitant to use novelizations as canon, especially for KH. Considering the games should be primary canon in our minds, and how it's referred to as guardian in-game, I think we should leave it as is. 14:47, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't mean for it to be taken as canon, just that it was a description that had appeared elsewhere. If we're sticking with guardian, then it should be lowercase. 17:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, right. It was discussed before. Seeing as no one has made any objections about it above, I'm going to move it.-- 22:53, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * For what it's worth, the CoM ultimania consistently calls it the "shadow behind Ansem", or "shadow (kage)": here. 15:04, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Would it be fine to just have the first sentence be something like "Xehanort's guardian, also known as Xehanort's shadow..." or something like that? 16:36, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * What evidence do we have for "guardian"? In BBS, the mission text says to "defeat Xehanort and his shadowy other" so I'm more in favour of Xehanort's "shadow" than "guardian". 16:45, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that would have been the quote "Come, guardian". 16:48, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
 * The original KH Ultimania gives it another placeholder name, "Small, Darkside-like being (Below, Shadow)" (小さなダークサイドような者（以下、影）), if we want to mention that in the article. The attack descriptions just keep calling it the shadow (影). 16:15, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

Better (Official) Image?
Would it be possible to extract the guardian's image from one of the following sources? I'd like to replace the fan-posed render with something official. - 16:38, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
 * 01
 * 02
 * 03
 * 04

Renaming of page
Given the revelations in Kingdom Hearts III, is there enough to justify the renaming of this page to Terra's Heartless? If so, would such edits have to wait until the spoiler policy expires? Joveus (talk) 20:57, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Moving the page? No. The issue comes to having consensus on doing so. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this "thing" officially referenced as "Guardian" in KH1? 00:10, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes. In several games, Ansem's "shadowy other" (what it's referred to in KHBBS) is referred to explicitly as the Guardian ("Come, Guardian!"). - 00:56, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It is not referred to in an official way in KH1. "Come guardian" is all we hear. No captions.


 * In dialogue: "Come guardian"
 * Novel: Ansem's shadow
 * Ultimania: "The monster behind Ansem" and "Terra's phantom"
 * BBS boss battle tag: "Xehanort's shadowy other"
 * KH ultimania: "small, Darkside-like being" and "shadow".
 * Given that there is no official term for this (at least, not that I've yet seen in KH3, given that I'm not at the end yet), and that we're currently relying on a descriptor, I would advocate the now-known-to-be-more-accurate-and-specific descriptor of "Terra's Heartless". 21:29, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, calling this "Terra's Heartless" is even worse than calling it "Xehanort's guardian." I could be wrong, but I remember reading somewhere the quote was "Come, Guardian!" with an uppercase "G." Can't recall the source. In the meantime, I suggest we wait till the KHIII Ultimania comes before proceeding further. - 03:33, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Nipping this in the bud before speculation gets passed off as fact. It's not a Heartless, just an occasional container for Terra's heart. (Incidentally, Terra-Xehanort in KH3 is Present Terra's body + past Terra-Xehanort's heart.) Pink Agaricus (talk) 09:57, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * テラの心は閉じこめられていただけで,"怪物がテラのハートレス"というわけではない.
 * "While Terra's heart is trapped within, I wouldn't say 'the monster is definitely Terra's Heartless'."
 * Well then why the hell did you design it to look like a Heartless? Weird. But, seems clear enough.
 * That being said, it's still clearly linked to Terra, not Xehanort. Can we move this to "Terra's phantom"? 13:42, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Not a fan of the flowery, not-official-but-trying-to-sound-cool name choice. I think the article title is fine as it is. - 13:49, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Terra's phantom is closer to official than "Xehanort's guardian". "Terra's phantom" is actually stated in the ultimania. Regardless, the newest Ultimania apparently calls it, officially, "The One Behind". 15:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Is it "The One Behind," or "The Person Behind?" I've seen both... Either way, it seems we have our official name, horrible as it is. - 15:45, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, the excerpt I posted calls it "Monster behind Terra-Xehanort" (テラ=ゼアノートの背後の怪物) in full. Pink Agaricus (talk) 16:09, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Tiny robot posted "Ushiro no Jin", which would be "The One Behind". 17:03, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Right, but there isn't really anything that makes ushiro no jin a more "official name". It doesn't have one and is just described in generic terms. Pink Agaricus (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Weird, they called it an official name. If it's not, then I'm still voting for Terra's phantom as the name that is most explicitly used within official materials, and is the closest description of what it actually is. 17:21, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * What is the exact translation of the text? Whichever one Nomura says is the true, 100% "official name" should be the one we go with. The alternate name can then be added to the intro with "also called ___ in the Ultimania," or something along those lines. Personally, I've seen more about 'The One Behind' than 'Terra's phantom.' I haven't seen that one mentioned even once, at least by translators. - 18:56, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Terra's phantom was in previous ultimanias (memorial, I believe) as discussed above. 19:46, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
 * With everything that's been discussed, I believe we should move the page to "The One Behind", and then mention it also being referred to as "Terra's Phantom", and "Guardian" (by Ansem) in the introductory paragraph, similarly to what has been done on pages like No Name, where it references also being referred to as "Gazing Eye" (Levi657 (talk) 12:53, 2 March 2019 (UTC))
 * Terra's phantom and guardian, to be clear. 15:07, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * How has the discussion gone about? I just have a little input. In KHUX, there's with an avatar part called "Ansem: Monster Balloon" (EN notice: http://api.sp.kingdomhearts.com/information/detail/32033). In the Japanese version, it's called "アンセムコスの背後の怪物風船" (Monster Balloon Behind Ansem Cos/Costume) (JP notice: http://api.sp.kingdomhearts.jp/information/detail/27021). I believe that's the only in-game name we have for the guardian (other than "guardian"), and also the only English localisation. By removing "Balloon" from the localised name, we get "Monster". With what we have in the Ultimania now, it aligns with the name "背後の怪物" which translates to "The Monster Behind" (same as the Japanese name). Though for some reason in the localisation of KHUX, the term "behind" is removed to just "Monster Balloon" instead of "Monster Balloon Behind". LightKeyDarkBlade (talk) 15:18, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
 * So, to clarify, are "The One Behind", "The Person Behind" and "The Monster Behind" all English translations of the same string of kanji - "背後の怪物"? If so, then "The Monster Behind" seems to be the best option, no? Or is all this too much hassle and better to leave as "Xehanort's Guardian", even if it is an unofficial name? - Joveus (talk) 13:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * No, that's not correct. You're summarizing several different Japanese descriptions of the phantom, only one of which is treated as an official name: "The One Behind". 14:06, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * BTW, for clearing up the "guardian" thing -- he's definitely not saying Guardian. Not sure what he's saying, but it sounds like an imperative verb. 14:07, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * 「私を護るのだ！ or "Protect me!", which doesn't really help. The KH3 Ultimania has the name as 「うしろの人」which, I believe, can be translated to both "The One Behind" and "The Person Behind". - Joveus (talk) 14:29, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Not too sure about "The Person Behind". But "怪物" means monster/creature usually. "One" can also be used in a more general sense. LightKeyDarkBlade (talk) 06:24, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This one advocates "The One Behind". 12:33, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

The One Behind, a Heartless or a Something-Else?
This isn't the first and probably not the last time this gets discussed but are we really sure the One Behind isn't a special type of Heartless? It has all the physical traits of a Heartless and has appeared in the very first game giving us all the implications that it is one. We count the World of Chaos as a Special Heartless even though we don't get a direct confirmation just like the One Behind. I know it's never been stated directly, but could we classify it as a Special Heartless? I just feel we should at least go with the closest thing until we hear about a new type of dark being like something that simbiotes with powerful Heartlesses. ZBroadcast (talk) 11:41 2 December, 2019 (UTC)
 * Regarding World of Chaos being a Special Heartless, I think that's because it's basically just Ansem SoD transformed into a giant monster, Ansem is a Heartless so it makes sense him as a giant monster would be a Heartless too. Come Guardian is much more ambiguous, it being a dark construct certainly makes sense and I think that's the most fitting description to give it seeing as we don't know if it is specifically a Heartless or not. Come Guardian being a Heartless would still certainly make sense, just a Heartless that happens to hold a heart kind of like the Lich, but like I said we don't have many bread crumbs to work with so I think for now dark construct sounds like the most fitting classification, and if we're lucky maybe Re:Mind will throw us a bone regarding the matter. Pureautism (talk) 04:54, 3 December 2019 (UTC)