Talk:Soul Eater

I'm under the impression that this should be merged with Way to the Dawn. Thoughts?--N/A
 * mmm... do we have factual proves that they are the same? Pablo618 02:30, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Not sure, I think I red one comment's link in the Way of The Dawn discussion page saying that Soul Eater changed into TWTTD in KH2. O_o--N/A
 * I don't remember that :S let's keep it how it is then Pablo618 02:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Seems possible though, given their physical similarities. --Hecko X 13:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Setup
'Cause this weapon isn't usable in KHI, do we need the KH's weapon box? And because it's not a Keyblade, do we need the Keyblade navigation template? OtO con^_- 00:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
 * No on both accounts. --Hecko X 06:04, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Ansem's(KH1) Halberd
In KH1 when you fight (What's his real name?) his weapon is a double bladed version of the soul eater, and could be an evolved form, or two soul eaters bound at the hilt, should that weapon be in this article or have it's own, drasticly short page?

his name is Xehanort's heartless, and yeah its the same thing

This has been discused before. In the credits he is called Ansem, Seeker of Darkness. He IS Xehanort's Heartless, and is called that, however that is what he IS not his Name. IF we used this logic we would have to call Xemnas Xehanort's Nobody. --Evnyofdeath 01:39, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Tabs
Again, what happened to the tabs ? Strangely, they seemed to work for Kingdom Key D.  TNÉ  En avant Bravo ! 07:32, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

BBS
I removed the passage from the page, since it took two paragraphs to literally say "this is speculation" over and over. This one line seems important, though. Glorious  CHAOS!  02:24, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

Though later confirmed in one of Nomura's interviews that the scene with The Way to the Dawn in BBS was nothing more than a teaser and is not actually canon to the storyline.

Cleanup

 * 1) How are we going to do the picture? When the infoboxes are fixed up, they will take its place and be using the Days sprite. Do we want to use the current picture somewhere else in the article, or just rely on the sprites?
 * 2) Does anyone have any source for where Riku got the Soul Eater? We used to claim that Maleficent gave it to him, but the game script only has her giving him powers a while after he first uses the weapon, and it's the Heartless-control and Dark Mode suit. I mean, it's a fair assumption, but I don't think we should be outright claiming it without proof. Glorious  CHAOS!  20:52, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I would say we utilize the image in a gallery, like "Soul Eater Concept Art" or something. As for the source, there really ISN'T one, at least any official one. Riku didn't just randomly get a sword like that, as Sora got the Keyblade. It was a weapon made of the darkness from either Ansem upon his first encounter in hooded form with Riku, or from Maleficent when he first showed up in Hallow Bastion, as seen in the Manga, for him to weild, hence it is summoned in a cloud of dark energy, hence he only first had it after Maleficent first began to brainwash him. Riku did earn Heartless control from the witch, but it was "ANSEM" who first gave him the Dark Mode suit, not Maleficent. - EternalNothingnessXIII 21:01, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, she gave him something right after Hook is defeated:
 * Maleficent: Yes, the untapped power that lies within you. Now, child, it’s time you awakened that power and realized your full potential.
 * And he used the suit in the first battle against him at Hollow Bastion, which I believe was before the Ansem scene. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:22, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

But she didn't give it to him. She was merely encouraging Riku to open his heart and surrender it to the dark. He actually wore the suit because the darkness in his heart had consumed him. It says so in the Journal. - EternalNothingnessXIII 21:25, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Eh, fair enough. The point is, the Soul Eater appears at the Traverse Town meeting, and we don't see Maleficent giving/awakening anything until after Monstro. In COM, it is revealed she gave him a bedroom too, but we never actually have anyone say she made the Soul Eater for him. So, we don't know that Maleficent gave it to him, even if it's reasonable. Glorious  CHAOS!  21:37, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point. But what do we say? We can't just leave it as "he randomly winds up with a sword"... - EternalNothingnessXIII 21:42, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, we can, kind of. Something like "Riku obtains the Soul Eater at some point after arriving at Hollow Bastion." Glorious  CHAOS!  21:55, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Ugh... I don't like it. Too general. How about "After losing the Keyblade to Sora via his choice to side with darkness, Riku was instead presented with the Soul Eater. He continued to utilize the blade since his arrival in Hallow Bastion after the destruction of Destiny Islands."
 * This makes the most sense, to me, at least, as he only has a toy sword on the islands before their destruction, and he has it in Traverse Town, which is after his arrival at Hallow Bastion, where he's first teleported on the Islands. Perfectly illustrated in the Manga. - EternalNothingnessXIII 21:58, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * That seems to me to imply that he got it at Destiny Islands as a sort of "dark Kingdom Key", which is a bit more speculation than I think is appropriate.
 * Could we get another opinion on this? Glorious  CHAOS!  22:45, November 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Opinions not needed. Rephrasing is. Taking what I put, why not tone it down on said "speculation"... Nothing like what you had past said, though, as that was as good as "Mickey is short." True, but very bland to the mind. My version at least gives a bit more OFFICIAL background of the weapon. Besides... only a truly inquisitive non-dense person would think to question that style of writing. Few people, while NOT dense, would think about it that way. This is where an opinion on how to removie speculation from MY version would be needed... - EternalNothingnessXIII 23:17, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

Soul Eater in BbS Trailer
I noticed this earlier... check out the Birth By Sleep trailer wherein Ventus falls through the Station of Awakening flooring. It's already been noted that the Kingdom Key is with him, but look to the right of it, Soul Eater is there alongside it.

Hmm, good eye! Never noticed that before. ^^-- Xion 4  ever  16:45, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

why every time someone puts on the page that the Soul eater appears on Ven's awakening the information is removed? --Xabryn 17:30, December 31, 2009 (UTC)
 * No need to get offensive, remember at the bottom of the page it clearly says "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, then don't submit it here." 

Secondly, thats a nice addition, but until it's proven, lets leave it out. We need a nice, confirmed, clear screenshot or image. Find that, show it here and it'll be restored.-- Xion 4  ever  17:33, December 31, 2009 (UTC)


 * One, because there is still disagreement on whether that is Soul Eater, Way to the Dawn, or something else; Two, because if it is actually the Soul Eater, it is obviously story material rather than trivia; Three, because if it is story material, we need to wait until the game is released to figure out what it actually means.


 * Any information "discovered" within the trailers is largely unusable, due to the inability to make sense of it - it's there to get us excited about the game, not to tell us what the entire plot is. Trailer information should remain within the summary of the trailer on the BBS page, and only information obtained from interviews or articles should be used. Glorious  CHAOS!  17:37, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

My intention was not to be offensive, sorry if it seemed. Anyway thanks for answering.--Xabryn 18:45, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Not. A. Keyblade.

 * Days refers to Riku's weapon-type as a sword, meaning it is ALSO calling the Oblivion and Way to the Dawn swords. Nomura says that the Soul Eater is an intermediary for a Keyblade (not as "not a Keyblade", but as in "halfway to a true one"). Mobile says it is a Keyblade. It releases hearts in the same way a Keyblade does. It lacks the keychain, but otherwise, has the same things other Keyblades (Way to the Dawn, Aubade) do. There are several more sources saying it is some kind of Keyblade than there are swords, and the one saying it is a sword also calls canonical Keyblades swords.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  02:36, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

As we've seen from the Keyblade of People's Hearts, the LS's Ends of the Earth, and the Keyblades in the Keyblade Graveyard, not having a Keychain does not stop something from being a Keyblade.02:48, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yes Kryten, in Days it DOES release Hearts. Gray Hearts. Ya know what else releases Gray hearts? Every other weapon in the game besides the Keyblade. --Evnyofdeath 03:17, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) It releases pink hearts in CoM, just like the Keyblade. I believe it releases pink hearts in Days, too, but I haven't checked recently.
 * 2) The fact that others don't have these attributes means they are common threads, not requirements.
 * 3) Days calls Oblivion and Way to the Dawn swords, as well, and calls the Dream Sword a Keyblade. That generalization is absolutely inapplicable to this discussion.
 * 4) It is the main plot of Days, and why they created Xion, that only Keyblades can release hearts from the samsara of Kingdom Hearts. Marluxia says it, at the beginning. Beings of darkness may steal hearts, but they are also lost to Kingdom Hearts (that's what the Heartless do).
 * 5) Categories such as this are not exclusive. We could have a category for "KH2 swords" and "KH2 Keyblades", if both were true. We DO categorize Oblivion and Way to the Dawn as Swords, due to this, and Dream Sword as a Keyblade. However, they are also something else, so we provide those categories as well. We have several sources saying this is a type of Keyblade - ergo, it gets the categories.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:10, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

All the Heartless seen in CoM are created from Memories, thus are not real. In Days No matter what weapon Riku is wielding if he slays an Emblem Heartless it releases a Gray Heart. If you kill a Heartless as any character besides Roxas, Xion, or Sora it releases a Gray Heart because the released Heart was not collected. --Evnyofdeath 06:14, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, we had this discussion about a year ago, and you're very wrong about the grey hearts - Talk:List_of_Keyblade_Wielders. Riku consistently releases pink hearts.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:17, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, my fav character to play as in Days is Riku, and I've clearly seen Gray Hearts released whenever I kill an E.Heartless as him. Alternatively, for CoM at least, it may have just been a game mechanic. --Evnyofdeath 06:18, October 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * - pink hearts.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:20, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * - pink hearts, with no other possible Keyblade anywhere near anything.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:21, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright fair enough, but to keep the wiki grounded in fact, I personally think a source in CANON (not including Mobil) stating SE is a Keyblade should be found. --Evnyofdeath 06:23, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * The pink hearts. That's enough.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:33, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Furthermore, Nomura says that the Soul Eater transformed into the Way to the Dawn, which is also a thing. It is literally a form of his Keyblade.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:35, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe. I said in that other discussion that Days distinguishes between characters, not weapons (hence Dream Sword releasing hearts), and it wouldn't have made much sense for ReCOM to have had even that distinctions... but on the other hand, considering what we know about Soul Eater, I wouldn't be against calling it a "proto-Keyblade" (...or a "larva Keyblade", maybe? 9_9). -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  06:35, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * It does it in KH2 as well, but the "proto Keyblade" thing is the revision I've been trying to pass through (, though it could be worded better). For categorization purposes, however, it is sufficient to just call it a "Keyblade", I think, especially considering that at least one source outright says it is.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:40, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Wasn't it already decided that SE simply acted as a medium for WttD to take form? --Evnyofdeath 06:36, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * "However there is no particular explanation for the Soul Eater's transfer and occurrence, as well as Riku's handing it to Kairi." is one quote. The Soul Eater literally changed into the Way to the Dawn.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  06:40, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm still waiting for an explanation for Riku suddenly having a second Keyblade to give to Kairi. It annoys me.

Where in KH2, again, with the pink hearts? -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  06:43, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

So it became a keyblade? is that what youre saying Kryten? it wasnt one before, it bacame one? I can live with that--ShadowsTwilight 06:46, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. Soul Eater itself is NOT a Keyblade, however after reaching a balance, it BECAME one. --Evnyofdeath 06:50, October 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * What I am saying is that it is, quite literally, a form of Riku's Keyblade. It became a true Keyblade, but even then the Way to the Dawn is still Riku's Soul Eater, like he says.
 * In KH2, Land of Dragons I believe.

(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  12:54, October 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * So the only time that it's a keyblade is when it is WttD, which we have a separate page for, which means that as Soul Eater, it is not a Keyblade --ShadowsTwilight 15:07, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...no. It functions as a Keyblade in all appearances, and is called a Keyblade in at least one official source, as well as a proto-Keyblade in several others. We count X-Blade and Keyblade of Hearts as Keyblades for these purposes, even though they are incomplete and not the same type of thing as the "normal" Keyblades. It becomes "complete" as the Way to the Dawn, but is still a sort of Keyblade in its original form.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  15:46, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tell me, aside from releasing hearts from heartless, which was never proven to be a keyblade exclusive ability, what Keyblade functions has Soul Eater ever displayed --ShadowsTwilight 15:56, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, I don't think releasing pink hearts means its a Keyblade. If it does, that means Goofy's shield, Donald's Stave, Leon's Gunblade, Cloud's sword, and Tifa's HANDS are Keyblades. --Evnyofdeath 16:15, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * ARG


 * 1) Marluxia says, absolutely, that only Keyblades release pink hearts. Those other weapons weren't actually releasing hearts - because they were near an active Keyblade, they damaged the Heartless enough, and the Keyblade was still responsible for the hearts. As I pointed out earlier, the Soul Eater can do this without any other possible Keyblade being responsible for the pink hearts.
 * 2) It allows Riku to see Keyholes (see Agrabah), which Nomura said absolutely only Keyblades can do; even Keyblade wielders can't see Keyholes on their own (see Xehanort at Hollow Bastion question in Ultimania).(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  16:25, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoever said Riku saw Hollow Bastion's Keyhole? Also, at the point he saw Destiny Island's Keyhole, he didn't even have SE. EDIT: Also, what about that scene where Cloud and Leon are fighting the heartless by themselves? Pink Hearts. --Evnyofdeath 16:27, October 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * 1) I said Agrabah, not Hollow Bastion. Though, of course he saw Hollow Bastion's, he made it.
 * 2) Then either Sora or Mickey was nearby, or one of them has a damn Keyblade. The games and Nomura explicitly state that only Keyblades can do this, I'm getting really tired of you guys acting like it's something I made up.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  16:33, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

And we're tired of you ignoring our points altogether. Again, Riku saw Destiny Islands Keyhole without the Keyblade or Soul Eater. Please explain this --ShadowsTwilight 16:35, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I did, already, but I'll repeat: "NOMURA F*CKING SAID YOU CAN ONLY DO THAT WITH A KEYBLADE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, TAKE IT UP WITH HIM. THIS IN NO WAY INVALIDATES SEVERAL SOURCES EXPLICITLY STATING THE SOUL EATER TO BE A KEYBLADE."
 * And which of your points am I allegedly ignoring? Keep in mind that "Not giving you the answer you want" does not equal "ignoring your question." I, for one, am annoyed at the fact that you guys are wasting your time attacking the series canon for not making sense, which is a foolish exercise.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  17:26, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Here, I'll go ahead and list what I see as the points you two have claimed in this section:


 * "Days refers to Riku's Weapon as a sword" - replied that it also considers Oblivion and Way to the Dawn to be swords, and Dream Sword to be a Keyblade.
 * "Riku was envious of Sora for wielding a Keyblade, yet if he was already wielding one, what would he have to be envious of?" - barely a cohesive point, but I may not have addressed it here - the plot doesn't make sense, as we've all said. That doesn't change the fact that the Soul Eater is said to be a type of Keyblade.
 * "Nomura said that Soul Eater was a intermediary for the Way to the Dawn, meaning that it used the Soul Eater to become a Keyblade, meaning that before it was Way to the Dawn, it was not a Keyblade." - absolutely illogical reasoning, which I've addressed in several ways. For instance, the Kingdom Key is an intermediary for the Omega Weapon, since Roxas's Omega Weapon is a transformation of the Kingdom Key.
 * "It also shares absolutely no physical attributes with a Keyblade, lacking the teeth, handguard, and keychain" - addressed by both me and Lapis, in that there are other Keyblades lacking these things.
 * "Yes Kryten, in Days it DOES release Hearts. Gray Hearts. Ya know what else releases Gray hearts? Every other weapon in the game besides the Keyblade" - Absolutely false, and I've provided multiple videos to prove it wrong.
 * "The Days weapon labelization refers to their default weapon mostly, otherwise it would mean that dream sword was a keyblade, which it clearly is not." - This assumption is pure speculation, and the Dream Sword is a similar discussion to this one. Regardless, Riku only uses Oblivion within the actual plot of Days, not Soul Eater.
 * "Being 'halfway to a keyblade' or 'a proto-keyblade' does not make it a full-fledged keyblade." - No one has said it did, and that detail also applies to the X-Blade and the Keyblade of People's Hearts, as I said before.
 * "How many lack all 3? how about none." - Begging the question, and a misunderstanding of how categorization works in the real world. For further clarification of my earlier rebuttal, in determining species and so on, you pick absolute markers - if something fails in that marker, it simply isn't in that category. If it meets the marker, it is. If you feel that it should be in that category, you redefine the absolute markers - you don't bend them just to fit in a single instance.
 * "We either trust a main-stream game that provides input into the overall story, or a kh styled community game that contributes absolutely nothing to the story." - I replied with something along the lines that this is complete failure to understand how categorization works on a wiki, especially this wiki. There is absolutely no precedent to say that categories must be exclusive - in fact, our policy is edges towards the far end of inclusiveness (see Spirit of the Magic Mirror).
 * "Also, it is said that the keyblade releases hearts, this is true ,but where was it said that it is the only thing that canrelease hearts." - I've replied multiple times that Marluxia said this.
 * "Beings of darkness have the ability to steal hearts without the aid of the keyblade, such as Maleficent, so would it be that mean of a feat for a blade made of pure darkness to release them?" - I replied that this was not the same as releasing hearts from the samsara of Kingdom Hearts, like darkness does.
 * "All the Heartless seen in CoM are created from Memories, thus are not real." - I forgot to reply to this, because it is absolutely bizarre. Of course they are created from memories, they're HEARTLESS. Memories are part of your heart, as Nomura has often said. Riku's journey even says they are tokens of darkness.
 * "Where in KH2, again, with the pink hearts?" - I answered this, but from memory, not from a video. It needs to be checked again.
 * "Tell me, aside from releasing hearts from heartless, which was never proven to be a keyblade exclusive ability, what Keyblade functions has Soul Eater ever displayed" - I answered this with the Keyhole one, and also answered how this is absolutely a false claim.
 * "Also, I don't think releasing pink hearts means its a Keyblade. If it does, that means Goofy's shield, Donald's Stave, Leon's Gunblade, Cloud's sword, and Tifa's HANDS are Keyblades." - I also answered this, in that there is a Keyblade as part of the same battle.
 * "Whoever said Riku saw Hollow Bastion's Keyhole?" - I never said that, though the fact that he MADE it and was holding the Keyblade of Hearts is an obvious answer. And then, before that, the Kingdom Key.
 * "Also, at the point he saw Destiny Island's Keyhole, he didn't even have SE." - I didn't answer this, one because you seemed to misread my "agrabah" as "destiny islands", and because it does seem to be a plot hole. However, like with Xehanort at Hollow Bastion, it's possible he had a Keyblade at the time - the Kingdom Key, which had been promised to him.
 * "Also, what about that scene where Cloud and Leon are fighting the heartless by themselves? Pink Hearts." - As I said, this does not at all refute the fact that the canon says that only Keyblades can do this. Either Nomura made a mistake here (again, not refuting canon), or it is due to Sora being in the same battle nearby.


 * So, I count two points, which I did not directly address, and none that I completely ignored. Are there any others?(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  17:56, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

When did you explain him seeing the DI Keyhole? The only other times he is seen releasing hearts is in close proximity with the Sora, your explanation for when everyone else releases hearts, the only valid source that calls SE a keyblade is Mobile and sice Days contridicts this by calling it a sword I guess that would invalidate both sources from this argument, so please recap your "it's a keyblade" evidence again, other than those that i just refuted, cuz obviously some got lost in the mainstream --ShadowsTwilight 17:40, October 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * "NOMURA F*CKING SAID YOU CAN ONLY DO THAT WITH A KEYBLADE." - that's how I replied to Destiny Islands. I explain it again in detail in my most recent comment.
 * "only other times he is seen releasing hearts" - no. He does this throughout CoM, and in Days.
 * "the only valid source that calls SE a keyblade is Mobile and sice Days contridicts this by calling it a sword" - this is, again, a massive failure to understand what you are talking about. This is in no way a contradiction, and even if it was treated as one, Days would be the failure since (1) Mission Mode is also dis-canonical, (2) It calls explicit Keyblades "swords" as well, and (3) it is not backed up by further sources.
 * "other than those that i just refuted" - you have failed to refute a single thing in this entire discussion. You keep repeating the Days one over and over, as well as stating blatantly false claims such as Riku releasing grey hearts, or always being near Sora.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  17:56, October 18, 2010 (UTC)