KHWiki talk:Project Enemy

Format
Right now, the only thing I can think of to fix it is that on the profile page, the bottom rows aren't rounded unless the gallery exists. In order to make sure it stays rounded, we'd have to have a bottom row that is always there, and not optional. If you guys really wanted that, we might do a link to the "List of Heartless" like is shown in GS's example, but it would have to change based on what type of enemy is in the infobox. It would also make the navboxes pretty useless (then again...). So...do you guys want that link there? It looks fine now except for that tiny sharp corner, which is not a problem to me. I'm just putting this out there as an option. Glorious  CHAOS!  22:39, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * What does everyone think about the Coliseum infoboxes? And is the Journal okay, this time? Glorious  CHAOS!  05:40, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Looks alright, though you might want to double check column widths of the KHC box with the regular KH box. Also, the tabs seem to be climbing leftward as they're nested deeper. Maybe that should be looked into, in case it overlaps article text. Otherwise, looks a beaut for Shadow. The only remaining potential problem I can think of is the case of a Nobody Boss, namely when it lists "Garden of Assemblage" as a location (e.g Larxene), the problem being the unusually long words in its name. --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  06:16, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Compatability and Variations
Looks wonderful KK, but the words on the journal are still cut off. Anyway to fix that? Everything else is pretty great. Oh, and is there a way to make the variations show without having to click "show"? I say this only because I am one of the few people who actually look at that, and I barely noticed that valuable piece of info. That's all. The Inexistent 23:12, May 17, 2010 (UTC)The_Inexistent
 * The words aren't cut off on any of my browsers, so I am unable to fix it. If someone knows how to fix it, please tell me, but otherwise all I can say is to get Firefox.
 * The variations list is really incredibly long for some enemies, and one of the complaints about the current See Also sections was being able to collapse that. So, I can only do it one way or the other, which way do you guys want? Glorious  CHAOS!  23:38, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm all for it, whichever one you choose should be fine, though. Should we have a part if they are a boss?  Just thought of that.  The Inexistent 23:57, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the template has different colors for bosses and categorizes differently, just like we do now. What did you have in mind? Glorious  CHAOS!  00:54, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * That sounds great KK, as long as readers can tell! The Inexistent 01:19, May 18, 2010 (UTC)The Inexistent

"Somebody" Category
Sooo... Does this mean what we've been referring to as "Character Bosses" will be categorized as "Somebodies"? Also such enemies as Undead Pirates and the like? --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  06:44, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, we never gave the Undead Pirates an enemy infobox... Are there any minor non-Heartless or Nobody enemies that do have one?  --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  06:48, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think not, only bosslike characters (Cave of Wonders Guardian or Hydra) got their own enemy infobox. Maleficent's Lackeys from BBS fall in the same catergory as the pirates and have no enemy box as well. --Shard ofTruth 09:46, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

We probably need to come up with a format for these kinds of enemies. It's lame for the Undead Pirates and Maleficent's Lackeys to not have an enemy infobox, but we can't lump them in with the CharacterBosses. --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  00:12, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Progress
Where are we supposed to keep track of our progress? - Lev  L  09:52, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * On the sub-task pages. I've set up a progress header on each one. Glorious  CHAOS!  12:53, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Somebody Logo
I've tried to cut out the keychain from the Ultima Weapon, and this is the result: It's really bad quality, though... Not sure if we'd be able to use it... 11:33, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe if it's smaller...--Auror. plus the great Andrachome 11:41, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, I misremembered. It's the spiky circle with an X through the middle. Glorious  CHAOS!  13:19, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah... Never mind ^_^ 13:38, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Isn't the spikey circle with the X (a gear?) just a make up symbol from the Ultimania? --ShardofTruth 14:09, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Didn't it appear in that tri-part sketch from the beginning of KH2? The one with the Nobody and Heartless emblems? Glorious  CHAOS!  14:48, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * That was Sora's crown, remember? --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  14:54, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

I've read that the symbol for a complete being is a gilded heart. --Evnyofdeath 17:03, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, then at least the spiky circle has an official source. Could someone obtain it or draft a raster image? Gold would be a good color, if it doesn't have a source in the games. Glorious  CHAOS!  20:39, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe there is a reason, why the Ultimania team choose the gear over the heart or any other available symbol for the somebody enemies, who knows?
 * Here is a picture, but my editing skills are far from being able to make a good clean version out of it.
 * To clear the confusion, here is a good version of Namine's sketch. Maybe a symbol page isn't a bad idea at all. --ShardofTruth 10:13, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've cleaned up the image, and I've coloured it gold like Kryten suggested:  10:28, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

It looks almost like the topview of a crown. Glorious  CHAOS!  16:06, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've managed to clean it up a little more:  10:24, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

I found someone, who can make a clean version from the symbol, but we need a bigger scan for it. I only have the Ultimania and the Piggyback guide, neither of them has a good clean look on the symbol. But I learned, that the Bradygames one has one. So can someone with the Bradygames guide make a good scan of the symbol? --ShardofTruth 12:48, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I do have the Bradygames guide; do just want the scanned page? -- 18:55, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, only the scanned page. --ShardofTruth 20:48, May 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * The guy I entrusted with this project is really slow, this could take a while longer. That's why they say, if you want something done, do it yourself. So here is it:
 * Somebody Emblem.png
 * Any suggestions? --ShardofTruth 16:00, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've got a question, in the KH2 ultimania, did the Experiment have this symbol? --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  17:07, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * The following creatures got the "somebody logo" (named "other") in the KHII/KHII FM+ Ultimania guide (in that order):
 * Seifer
 * Pirates (all three types)
 * Scar's Ghost
 * Vivi
 * Shadow Roxas
 * Shan-Yu & Hayabusa
 * The Beast
 * Cerberus
 * Hydra
 * Pete (Timeless River one)
 * Pete ("normal" one)
 * Captain Barbossa
 * Toy Factory (lol)
 * Shenzi, Banzai, and Ed
 * Scar
 * Hostile Program
 * Mysterious Man (strange I know)
 * Hades
 * Jafar's Shadow
 * Jafar (Genie)
 * Lock, Shock, and Barrel
 * The Experiment
 * Commander Sark
 * Master Control Program
 * Leon
 * Yuffie
 * Tifa
 * Cloud
 * Hercules
 * Sephiroth
 * Xemnas (Dragon Form)
 * Time Bombs (while the Dragon Form fight)
 * Lingering Sentiment
 * All Absent Silhouettes and Data forms are listed as Nobodies. --ShardofTruth 17:36, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I deeply apologize, ShardofTruth, I was on vacation and completely forgot about this upon my return. The icon you created looks great, though, thanks! -- 01:21, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't worry DTN, my rant wasn't directed at you but to a friend of a friend who claims himself an artist. He told me, he hasn't forgotten my request so maybe we'll see his version here someday. ShardofTruth 15:18, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Not all are Somebodies
I think we need to pin down who gets categorized as a "Somebody", and to add more subcategories for "CharacterBosses", since we have, besides humans, wild animals, machines, magical entities, computer programs, and maybe more. (Also, I'm not really a fan of the term "Somebody", although I recognize there isn't much in the way of alternatives... Wasn't it only used once?) --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  21:49, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the only workable definition is a being with it's heart, body, and soul, which requires that it also be an intelligent being. So, even though Goofy and Jaq are not Homo sapiens, they would still be Somebodies. The fish that Sora catches would not, and the Crank Tower, stone wall, and other "traps" would be Mechanisms. I would say that TRON, SARK, and MCP are Somebodies, though, since they have intelligence. I agree, though, that another term would be better, if we can get one.


 * That reminds me - I added a "Mechanism" parameter based on the Crank Tower, so you can put that for stuff like the Orb of Light and Blaster. Glorious  CHAOS!  23:09, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Good to know. I think the Experiment falls under that category, too. I think we should also have a "Wild Animal" parameter for such enemies as Glut, Sabor, and Hayabusa, and maybe "Magical Entity" or "Magical Construct" for Jafar's Shadow, and the Cave of Wonders Guardian. (Maybe the Orb of Light fits better under that.) --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  23:27, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of non-Heartless/Nobody creatures: the Honey Bees. Same treatment, or slightly different? 23:31, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Do we have stats for them? I would say place them in the "Wild Animals" category, if we make it official. What about the Lingering Sentiment? Doesn't really qualify as a somebody... "Magical Construct", per-maybe-haps? --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  00:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Experiment was intelligent, though, wasn't it? Cave of Wonders Guardian as well, I think.
 * Glut, Sabor, and Hayabusa are all intelligent, as well, just like the gorillas and Scar.
 * Shadows, Sentiments, Silhouettes, and Replica Data should probably...well, Replica is something specific, so how about "Mimic"? "Remnant"? They're all the same basic thing, aren't they? A psychic ghost of the individual?
 * Honey Bees definitely act like how the KH1 guide describes mechanisms - they always take a certain number of hits, no matter how much damage is inflicted. In KH2, it's two hits, and I think one in RECOM. They definitely don't seem to be intelligent. Glorious  CHAOS!  00:55, June 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * The Experiment definitely didn't have a heart, though, and I'd say it acted more on some kind of instinct than intelligence. And I would the Tiger Head is more... magically programmed than intelligent. I don't think it can carry a conversation at all.
 * I wouldn't say Glut, Sabor, and Hayabusa are given the same level of intelligence as, say, the Pride Lands characters, although as cartoon characters they are smarter than their real-world counterparts. None of them are given voices or developed personalities in either their movies or KH.
 * Maybe "Artificial Being" for some or all of those; Sentiments, Replicas, etc.
 * Here are some others who I have trouble classifying as, well, anything.
 * Rock Titan
 * Ice Titan
 * Cerberus
 * Hydra
 * Shadow Roxas
 * --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  01:46, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sabor is like Kerchak, isn't it? Obviously intelligent, but not able to speak? As a detail, I don't think that speaking should be the criteria for being considered a person - basically, if they demonstrate intelligence, it should be okay. Disney is really unclear about the boundary between humans and animals, and I think we could safely say that Pluto is an intelligent being.
 * The Rock Titan and Ice Titan are canonically Somebodies, as they can speak and do the whole deal. Cerberus and Hydra demonstrate intelligence and emotion as well. Dumbo and Bambi are clearly characters, but do not speak in KH, although Simba does. Shadow Roxas I would place with the Sentiments. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:00, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kerchak had a voice in the movie, but Sabor never did. (At least as far as I remember.) There is no indication that Sabor has any personality outside of that of a predator. --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  16:14, June 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * So do we want to divide non-corrupted entities into "Somebody", "Mechanism", and "Sentiment"? Those, at least, are all terms used somewhere in the series, even if Nomura hasn't explicitly defined them. Glorious  CHAOS!  05:04, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Where did "Mechanism" come from? --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  05:30, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * We could still go with the term Other. This would avoid dicussions if some terms are canon/semi-canon/fanon/non-canon and doesn't make the sorting of the enemies debatable and too confusing.
 * Otherwise, the terms Kryten suggested seem fine to me if it means the following:
 * If the enemy isn't a regular enemy (Heartless/Nobody/Unversed) it's a Somebody.
 * If something disqualifies it from being a Somebody (not complete in some way/a artifical produt/leftover/copy) then it's a Sentiment.
 * Mechanism is a tricky one, from my point of view it only applies to enemies that are mindless, that are only contraptions or obstacles. Gameplay wise the Honey Bee may fight like one, but I wouldn't call an animal mindless.
 * Short it's like this: Heartless/Nobody/Unversed vs. Sombody-->Sentiment-->Mechanism --ShardofTruth 09:18, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * I guess I'm not really understanding what constitutes a "Mechanism". What makes the Honey Bee more of a Mechanism than, say, The Experiment? Do the Balls of Light or Jafar's Shadow count as Mechanisms? --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  18:03, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Bradygames guide seems to define it as something that takes a certain number of hits to defeat, rather than having HP. Basically, an obstacle, like the rock walls in the Cavern of Remembrance and The Land of Dragons. Glorious  CHAOS!  18:15, June 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Personally I've become pretty suspicious of stuff Bradygames puts in their guides, but also if we use that to define a type of enemy, we end up with enemies that don't really fall into any of the 3 categories, like the Experiment, the Ball of Light, Jafar's Shadow, etc. --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  18:20, June 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jafar's Shadow would be a Sentiment (remnant) or a Mechanism (no HP), right? And Ball of Light a Mechanism? Glorious  CHAOS!  05:40, June 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ball of Light definitely has HP. But I think it's safe to say it has no heart, body, or soul. --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  18:49, June 23, 2010 (UTC)

I'm against using "Mechanism" as one of the categories, as it defines a specific type of fight, rather than an enemy type. So maybe the categories should be Somebodies, Remnants, Mechanical Entities, and Magical Entities (or maybe combine the last two as "Artificial Entities"). --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  05:31, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would we want to define "Mechanism" as anything non-intelligent? Rock-walls, dead spirits, and such? Or use "Obstacle"? Glorious  CHAOS!  15:14, June 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I like "Obstacle" in this case. --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  02:55, June 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Taking back up on this discussion - the Ultimania categorizes Vivi (Boss)/Fake Vivi as "Somebody/Other", but it is absolutely a Nobody. Thoughts? Glorious  CHAOS!  19:13, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * Grrr... that's an annoying one... I would say it's under "other" because it's more of a glitch caused by a Nobody than a Nobody in and of itself, with the Nobody revealing itself afterwards. --  Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  19:53, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

New Categorization

 * Erg. That just does not sit well with me on any level. Glorious  CHAOS!  06:38, September 18, 2010 (UTC)