KHWiki talk:Staff

Update
Slight update, see here. The only thing not there that would be is the actual staff tables, only for the sake of space, but it would go where they currently on this page. Thoughts? 05:48, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks good. But this is the project page for detailing information regarding the staff members and their responsibilities, right? In regards to having sections that details how the wiki deals with vandalism disagreements, and etc., I think they should be moved to KHWiki:Policy (once it's created) and sub-sections should be created detailing specifics policies (and linking to to those with their own pages), such general policies that applies to all users, Videos Policy, Image Policy, Deletion Policy, Blocking/Banning Policy, and et cetera. I can't explain it very well, but I do want to make a rough draft of what I have in mind later down the road.-- 20:34, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Right, of course. All the stuff after "KHWiki:Staff Manual" would actually replace the set of pages currently found in KHWiki:Administrators. I've proposed those changes in the talk page. I just combined it all as one page to save space (since I had a lot of things I was writing drafts for at the time). I've always been in favor of a KHWiki:Policy page to be created as a general hub for all the policy pages on the wiki, too, though. 05:57, 25 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Posting my comments on this and for the KHW:Administrators page: How you have things split up looks good to me. In regards to this staff manual, this was always something BebopKate/TNE/Kryten (?)/Yuan/whoever else from "the old days" tried getting into motion. There may be more information in the userspace on such material- not sure. 00:39, 28 December 2017 (UTC)

Update 2
With KrytenKoro leaving the KHWiki and Neumannz being MIA for a year now, I think the time is as good as any to talk about staff and revising it. The community has talked about this in the past, but since we're so busy in RL and updating articles on the mainspace, we never gotten quite to it. While I wanted to wait until it was properly discussed, Porplemontage promoted me to bcrat. From our existing pool of active users/staff members, I think it's time for the community to reelect new staff members since so many users are inactive. I've been mean to bring this up, but as KeybladeSpyMaster‎ was also an admin before leaving due to RL circumstances, and seeing as KSM has returned and has been consistently editing since his return and his excellent conduct, I've been meaning to request that he'll be reinstated as an admin.-- 23:08, 1 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree that we should consider new staff elections. I won't count on me, because that'll be up to everyone else, but we definitely need people that will be here or can be here if needed. If we're considering an additional bureaucrat (I think we should regardless of whether or not Neumannz chooses to stay as one), I would suggest TheSilentHero, who has done excellent work on this wiki and has especially helped fight some users who think spamming or sockpuppetry is okay. 01:02, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Also, may I suggest once this discussion is over, that we archive this talk page.
 * I agree that KSM should get his admin status back. He's been doing a lot of stuff for the wiki since he became active again. As for the bureaucrat, Porple said he usually stays out of staff decisions, and I think he made NinjaSheik a bureaucrat, so we have at least one active bureaucrat. Like she said, we'd normally do this after discussing, so I'd like to officially nominate NinjaSheik as the new bureaucrat. She is the most active out of the current admins, and edits practically every day, so I think she would be the best option for bureaucrat. On the messenger chat, Kryten suggested that Neumannz should consider demoting himself due to inactivity, and he said he'll consider, so do we want to wait on what he decides, or appoint another bureaucrat, regardless of what he chooses?  17:40, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * It's been brought up on the wiki's Discord that this topic be discussed in a Roundtable meeting. I wanted to bring this out to this discussion so everyone knows and we can decide whether or not we could do this and when. And where, with the wiki's Discord now hosting a lot of the members of the wiki. As for nominations, I back NinjaSheik's nomination for bureaucrat, and like I said, I think regardless of what Neumannz chooses, it might be good to have a third bureaucrat for now. 17:47, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I've archived the talk page. Honestly, there's a lot of talk pages that needs to be archived on the wiki, but I digress.
 * Neumz hasn't made a mainspace edit since Jan. 2017, so he's MIA for over a year. That being the case, I think it's only polite to contact him and get solid confirmation that he's unable to come onto the KHWiki on a consistent basis. If he doesn't answer within a week, then I think he should get demoted. I'm sure, like all fans, they love to contribute when they can, but being a staff members means being around—not every day, of course, but on a regular basis of some kind. As for nominations, I nominate TheSilentHero and ShardofTruth for bcrat status, and as I mentioned before, KSM should be reinstated as an admin. Both TSH and SoT are active, consistent users who contribute to the KHWiki, and both already have admin rights. And, much like them, KSH have shown excellent conduct and has the experience. I don't know if a third bcract is necessary since most of there active users here are already admins, but I support whatever decisions the community makes.-- 21:49, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Until Neumannz gets back, I say we leave his position/status alone. This is both formality and being polite. In regards to nominations: Personally, I thought that KSM was already an admin...Definitely up for having KSM and Shard move up to admin status. B-crat, I think any of the three [Hero, KSM, Shard] deserve it. Obviously three are perhaps excessive, but these guys seriously deserve and could use it. Just to clear the air, is this solely for admin/b-crat positions or are we revamping the mod spots as well? 02:06, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * KSM was an admin before leaving the KHWiki temporarily due to RL circumstances. He came back recently and began contributing on a daily basis, but no proposal was made to reinstate him as admin until the topic was brought up. THS and SoT are both admins, as well. Again, I don't know if three bracts are necessary. A bcrat and an admin aren't that different from each other, and the only that really distinguish them is the a bcrat can change user rights, something we needed since so many of staff members are MIA. That being said, I'm going to contact Neumz about this discussion. Over a year is a long time to be off the KHWiki, I think. We should also discuss the mods, as well. Out of the four, I typically see Chainoffire and TheFifteenthMember the most in the RC, but I don't see Chitalian8 around very much, though I see him from time to time. I haven't seen Troisnyxetienne in a while.-- 21:20, 3 February 2018 (UTC)
 * NinjaShiek is right on potentially removing Neumannz. Our Staff Policy says, "Undeclared Inactivity is the scenario under which a staff member leaves or does not edit for an extended period of time (at least 4 months) without notice." Now, the first thing we're supposed to do is notify the inactive staff member, and it seems to give a two month period before we take the move ourselves to just remove him, so I'd wait. Hence, I think that for now, we put three bureaucrats for now, two new ones + Nezzy. That way, if he chooses to stay, we still give him, and everyone else, the leeway to not feel pressured all the time to be here, and still have sufficient staff regularly on site. And if he chooses to leave and retire, well, we have two bureaucrats here already.
 * Speaking of the policy, we need to edit it so that it adds that all staff promotions are to be determined/approved by the community's vote. This is what was wrong when ENX asked for his rights back in 2015; we always do these things via election and community consent, but that wasn't stated in the policy. So I want to make sure this is okay before I add it.  07:07, 5 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I have contacted Neumannz on his talk page, so about we give him a couple of weeks to reply?
 * Yes, agreed. All our policies are outdated, and something like this should be explicitly stated.-- 23:38, 5 February 2018 (UTC)

To make it clear, I've retired for good unfortunately because of commitments elsewhere. While I'm still up for participating in a community event here and there, I no longer have the time to do any proper editing. Checking the RC is not much more than a habit that I still haven't gotten out of, I'm afraid. That said, I wish you all the best with getting this wiki up and running but it's best I don't have my rights reinstated. 00:07, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification, TFM. :) I do hope you'll have time to come around now and then. Does anyone know Troisnyxetienne's status? I suppose it's good idea to check in with Chitalian8? I think Chainoffire is the most active mod right now.-- 21:49, 6 February 2018 (UTC)
 * TNE occasionally sends a message in the Facebook chat, but idk about Chitteh. Unforunately I'm without a computer at the moment, so all my activity has to be done on mobile. 04:21, 8 February 2018 (UTC)::
 * So, if I'm understanding this correctly, we've got probably one bureaucrat in Neumannz, four admins, and one to two mods, right? And we're looking at NinjaShiek and/or TSH as bureaucrats, two, possibly three admins, and we'd probably be needing new mods (possibly one or two), right? 04:37, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * @Chainoffire: So, TNE is active on Facebook? That's good to hear, since she's part of the Facebook and deviantART team. But I haven't seen her around the wiki, though. I sometimes see her name pop up in the RC, though. By the way, UnknownChaser doesn't seem to active, and he's listed as part of the deviantART team with TNE. Have you heard anything about him from her?
 * @KeybladeSpyMaster: I saw Neumz's name popped in the RC the other day, but he hasn't responded to the message I left him. In any case, out of the active staff members we have one bcrat (me, as Neumz hasn't made an edit in over a year, but he seems to check in from time to time, so does that count as activity?), three admins (TSH, SoT, and Xion4ever), and one mod (Chainoffire). If TNE is active on Facebook, then I suppose that means she is active, just not on the KHWiki itself? I suppose we should check in with Chitalian8, as he hasn't made really been around that much?-- 23:19, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

Good thing I checked the RC when I did, I suppose. I'm basically in the same boat as 15thMember - still habitually checking the Recent Changes, will gladly participate in wiki events, but don't really have the time to commit to full-time editing anymore. That might change when KH3 actually comes out, but feel free to list me as an inactive staffer if you so choose. I'll gladly chip in if any extra input is necessary in future staff selection discussions, which I can get behind. 23:46, 8 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I checked on the KHX Wiki, and it seems Neumz is active there. He pops in in the KHWiki on some sort of basis, too. I don't know what to do here. Neumz has been inactive on the KHWiki, but he's also helping on a site that we're affiliated with and does check up on us regularly. Personally, it doesn't feel very right to demote him, but as KSM pointed out, "Undeclared Inactivity is the scenario under which a staff member leaves or does not edit for an extended period of time (at least 4 months) without notice." What does everyone else think?
 * @Chitalian8: It's perfectly fine if you can't edit full-time, but doing even a couple of edits once a month is acceptable as well. If you keep checking in the RC on a daily basis, that's good thing. After all, we have multiple staff members to make sure the KHWiki isn't being vandalized when the other members living in different timezones can't be here. The KHWiki is a hobby, not a job, so editors are not being forced to every single day. However, I think staff members should actively contribute in some way, even it's small.-- 19:15, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with you NinjaShiek. But I also think that, since the rest of us dropped the ball on calling out inactive staff, that its only fair to give everyone the chance to respond first after attempting to contact them before demoting them. Neumannz should have been contacted after four months of inactivity. Instead, none of us even noticed his absence for a year. It's only fair we give him the two months suggested in the policy before revoking his rights. He has been watching the site, he knows all that's going on for the most part. 19:44, 9 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's very fair. In the meantime, though, if everyone is in agreement, I'd like to promote KSM back to admin and have TheSilentHero promoted to bcrat. THS is one of the users who had the most activity here on the KHWiki, is the most active admin who deals with vandalism, and partakes in numerous projects to better the KHWiki. He has shown to be an excellent organizer, editor, and conducted himself very admirably. TFM has announced retirement, so that's one mod gone. As for Chitalian8, considering that he participated in the End of the Year event and pops in regularly, I'm not sure what the right course is here. I think that Chitalian8 should retain mod rights until it's clear that he is not active for full four months, as the policy dictates.-- 20:11, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Final Check
Bumping this since it's been over a week. Just to check with the rest of the community, everyone is cool with KSM with being re-promoted to admin and THS to bcrat? TFM officially declared retirement. I think with the recent edits made, Chitalian8 should remain as a mod, and Neumannz should remain as bcrat until two months has passed. Thoughts?-- 22:38, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Sounds good to me. 17:40, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * All right-y, then. No opposition has been voiced, so I shall promote KSM back to admin, THS to bcrat. With TFM declaring official retirement, TFM will be demoted. Actually, according to TFM's history, it looks KrytenKoro already demoted TFM upon request a while back ago, but TFM's name remained on the staff page, and just needs to be moved to the retirement page. That said, does anyone think it's necessary to promote another mod, or do you guys think that with so many of the active users being staff members already find it unnecessary?-- 22:40, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

KrytenKoro
KrytenKoro recently approached me on my talk page about granting him user rights to allow him to delete/move pages, but clarifies that he does not wish to be a mod/return to the staff. I've looked into the options available, and it seems like there are two ways to do this:

1.) We create a new user group rights that specifically allows KrytenKoro to delete and move pages. Typically, a user can receive those rights if they are promoted to moderator, admin, or bureaucrat.

2.) We give KrytenKoro "artist" rights, which allows a user to delete pages, move files, and suppress redirect during moves.

However, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of granting a user who announced retirement from the staff any sort user rights, as I find that completely unfair to the other normal users who are frequently active, as opposed to a user who announced retirement and will be able to contribute on a semi-regular basis. KrytenKoro wants rights that's typically intended for users who are staff members, but does not want to be a member of the staff. Honestly, I find this situation very confusing, given the fact that KrytenKoro announced retirement to focus more on RL, but is now requesting to given the same rights as a staff member with the intention of not actually being a staff member. And again, I'm uncomfortable with this idea because it's unfair to the other normal users, such as Lady Junky, ThereArentSteps, and Sora34CE, all users who active and have contributed regularly to the KHWiki for quite some time now. I'm not a big fan of the idea, but this is a community, so I'd like to other users' opinions.-- 21:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with NinjaSheik for the same reasons above. 06:07, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * While I understand why Kryten would want those rights back, and I would have no problem with him becoming a mod for that, I feel like we shouldn't give those rights if he doesn't want to be a staff member. Because that's unfair to others, like NinjaSheik said. 17:47, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

I disagree. I’d rather have looser rules, where rights that help editing are given to as many users as possible, as long as the users demonstrate that they can be trusted with those rights. If a user can use rights to improve the wiki, it’s only counterproductive to remove the rights from them. Being a staff member isn’t supposed to be a reward anyway so I personally don’t think the argument of “fairness” is very valid. While staff members carry more responsibilities, I have no problem with non-staffers having powers also. If Lady Junky, ThereArentSteps and Sora34CE want the same rights and the community thinks they won’t harm the wiki with those rights, then they should get them too. I wanted my rights to be removed because I did more harm with them than good (that rollback button is ‘’so’’ easy to click). But this is just the opinion of a retired user anyway~  11:48, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * FM has a point. The purpose of staff members isn't that they can move and delete pages, but that they can block vandals and protect pages and stuff. So, I'd like to change my vote to giving Kryten, and other people, those "artist" rights. The question is how we decide who should have those rights. It's not like staff elections, where we want to fill in some open spots, because we can give as many users artist rights as we'd like. 14:51, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
 * The conversation shifted a little, but let me clarify something: As I stated above, what I find unfair is the idea that KrytenKoro, a user who retired from the staff to focus more on RL and will only be active on a semi-active basis, could be given user rights (which are only given to active users who have shown themselves to be responsible and conduct themselves in a exemplary manner), despite the fact that other users who are more active and also shown excellent conduct also should be given rights to improve the wiki, but do not have it. There are so many users on the KHWiki who deserves user rights, because they work hard to contribute to the KHWiki on a regular basis, and one of the things that is typically looked at, as per policy, is not only the user's personality in order to determine whether that are capable of handling the responsibility, but also their activity. THAT is what I find unfair. If a semi-active user like KrytenKoro is given user rights, then that means we should apply the same treatment to other users who we trust and are both SEMI-ACTIVE and FULLY active. We need to make sure everyone is treated fairly and not given just ONE user special treatment. What KrytenKoro requested is something we have NEVER done before, nor any other wikia (to my knowledge). Needless to say, this subject is brand new for all of us and needs to be discussed with careful consideration.


 * In relation to that, I'm actually glad TFM brought this up, because it's also something I looked into with Porpe's assistance. We talked about changing "artist" (no user holds that user rights management since the KHWiki's creation, as far as I know) into something more like a "helper", a group that features the user rights that KrytenKoro requested on my talk page that's different from being a mod (e.g. mods are in "charge of corralling editors, protecting pages, etc.", as Kryten puts it, but Kryten clarifies that he doesn't want to be a staff member and wants to just help delete/move pages) in order to improve the conditions on the KHWiki. I think the idea is something everyone would agree about it, though I do have concerns about redundancy.


 * Which brings me to my next point. I'm all for to making a new user rights group for users we trust, and I've had my eyes on several users who will meet these requirements, some of which I listed above. However, I do question on whether such a group is necessary, considering that I tried to broach the subject about getting a new mod to replace TFM since TFM announced retirement above, and NO ONE responded to it. After all, all staff members are fully active on the KHWiki, and anything that needs to be deleted/moved are done within 24 hours, so I figured that might saw it as something that was unnecessary. These is also something we need to address as a community. I kinda have more to say, but I'll leave at that and give the floor to someone else.-- 20:32, 4 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Just to add some info, there are a couple inactive users who are artists. Here is where the group was requested. Outdated project? We could certainly get rid of it or give it a new name for trusted users. --Porplemontage (talk) 23:58, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm on 15m's side here, and I trust that Kryten will be checking in enough to make use of the user rights. If any user on this site has a body of work that warrants an exception to the rule, it would be Kryten. 03:06, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's that much of a problem if a user with those extra rights becomes semi-active or inactive. They're not part of the staff, they don't have any responsibility, so they don't HAVE to be active. They can edit whenever they'd like. Therefore, I don't think we should remove those rights when they become inactive. Unlike staff members, we don't need to set a limit to the amount of users who can get those rights, so it doesn't matter if inactive users have them. It's basically just an extra tool for people who provide good work for the wiki. And yes, staff members usually move/delete a page within 24 hours, but I remember from my non-staff days that it was pretty annoying to mark something for deletion/move and having to wait until someone actually did it, instead of doing it myself. 17:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "which are only given to active users who have shown themselves to be responsible and conduct themselves in a exemplary manner"
 * This doesn't sound like something that's really revokable, regardless of activity. I'm still the same person and will hold my edits to the same standard -- and I'd expect the same of past staff members too.
 * I don't want to not be able to help, I want to not be in a position of authority. I've advocated for a long time that delete/move are janitor-level tools that should be extended to everyone who can be trusted with them, elections not really necessary -- and the obvious solution to it being "unfair" that other longtime editors don't have these rights yet is...well, give it to them. You're the bureaucrat now, that's what your job is.
 * "nor any other wikia" -- I don't quite get what you mean. I see this kind of thing a lot -- I'm actually not familiar with wikis demoting inactive staff, although I'm sure some do. 18:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * NINJA'd by TSH -- yeah, basically that. I would trust any of our previous mods (unless for some reason we've banned one or two?) to continue with janitorial work. 18:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

So, I think we should get rid of the Artists role for one. If we make a new "janitor" role, I'm okay with that, I just think the artist role right now, regardless, is unnecessary. As I recall when I drafted a History page for the wiki, the artist role was created shortly after the split to allow more users to help with the images of the recently-moved wiki, and I don't think it's been used much since.

As for the specific scenario here, I frankly still disagree with giving less-active or inactive users such tools. For one, rules and policies can change while these users are away, and they may come back and use those tools, albeit non-maliciously, to do things the "old way", and a user that does that with those tools are harder to deal with than similar edits by non-"staff" users (I'm using staff to refer to the rights, but obviously, I'm referring to those with the rights). It really should be just active users the community trusts, or we should loosen up the limits for the number of mods and how they're assigned so that its easier for trustworthy active editors to become mods. I strongly disagree with the notion that a user, any user, should be given special treatment on this or in regards to any rules, regardless of how much they've contributed or how long. And honestly, Kryten, fo someone who doesn't want to exercise authority anymore, you sure keep exercising it. 20:27, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * @Porplemontage: Thanks for letting me know. Both users are inactive and have been demoted.
 * Guys, for the last time, my main concern is that I don't think any semi-active users should be given user rights over users who are fully active and just as eligible to have them. This has nothing to do with with the quality of edits, but rather if said user will be here to utilize those rights and keep up-to-date with new policies and guidelines, which are currently in the process of being revised/updated. It's not fair, and we must treat everyone EQUALLY. I'm completely against giving a single user any sort of special treatment, regardless of how long they've contributed to the KHWiki. There are other users who are more active than Kryten at the moment and those users should be given those rights. And since that we're such a small community where the traffic isn't all that high, I still think that creating a new user group rights might be a little redundant, but I'm not against the idea.


 * If we are to implement this, I want to make sure everyone is given a fair shot and everyone is treated equally based on our policies. Activity does matter, because if users who have user rights aren't present to assist with the management and isn't up-to-date with any new policies on the KHWiki, then what's the point of having them at all? That can cause a lot of misunderstandings. I agree with KSM in that regard. But whatever are disagreements are in regards to the subject, the community operates a fair consensus. No one user should decide how the community is run, and we often tried to run the KHWiki with the understanding that no user, even if they have user rights, are above anyone else. Everyone has to be treated fairly. If all of you believe a semi-active user like Kryten should be given user rights, then the same treatment must be extended to other users are also less active. I personally disagree with the idea, though, but consensus is consensus.-- 21:17, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I don't see how being able to move files would cause a problem for returning editors, but moving pages (which all users already can do) isn't. And I don't think people would go delete pages without discussion/without it being marked for deletion. What could be changed in the policy that makes this a problem? As for who gets the rights, maybe we should let users decide if they want them or not. Someone who mainly edits pages won't have much use in being able to move files, but someone who uploads a lot of images, or who likes to do janitorial work does. 21:47, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Agree with TSH. I don’t see any convincing cons to having a janitor or artist group. In fact, making rights more accessible affirms the “all users are equal” philosophy, making the community more open and inviting so users would be more inclined to edit. It may also decrease the perception of staff members being a dominant, elitist force, which some new editors occasionally have. We can easily set up a page where editors can ask for janitor/artist rights (I don’t actually know the difference between the two) and the community can decide without any drama whether the editor is competent and trustworthy, which are the only two criteria that are necessary for this particular group.  00:11, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Chainoffire officially declared inactivity and we lost another mod. :( With that said, let's not prolong this any longer. It's not getting as us anywhere. The KHWiki loses and gains new staff members and users all the time, which is a problem due to the lack of activity. As long as all users treated fairly, I am not completely against it (I still think fully active should be given rights because they'll be able to utilize the rights more than semi-actives). So, let's just move on and select and asks users if the want janitor rights. Does anyone have any recommendations? Kryten is already a candidate, and given TFM's advocacy for janitor rights, TFM is also a candidate. I'd like to recommend Lady Junky, ThereArentSteps, and Sora34CE. I think these users especially would be able to utilize the janitor rights, and all three are fully active. LeafShinobi and Pain88 are also good users, though they lean slightly more on the semi-active side.-- 21:34, 8 March 2018 (UTC)