Talk:Tifa

It's pretty obvious that cloud, tifa, and sephiroth are connected in someway, but how? What are your inputs?

maybe the reason they are connected is because they are all from FFVII and have close ties there?

I object. Though they are all from FFVII, Yuffie, Cid and Aerith never quite interact with these three, yet these three are also from FFVII. Sephiroth is Cloud's dark memories in his heart, made physical (IIRC), and Tifa is Cloud's good friend. -- Super  Sword-chucks 23:34, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Lockhart or Lockheart?
i don't get it is her last name lockhart or lockheart? i personally think its lockhart --Trisee ann cleaton 15:58, April 26, 2010 (UTC) oh and how do yall get your talk thing like that? like with your picture and every thing?

I think it's lockhart. And they're called talk bubbles. -- 16:29, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Tifa's symbolism
"Her role in Kingdom Hearts II is the manifestation of Cloud's inner light."

Like I said before, these are not what these two quotes are saying:


 * "As a symbol of light, like Sephiroth, it's possible that she too was incorporeal. That last scene where she goes off to search for Cloud, you could say, is a metaphor for how Cloud's light still hasn't lost him, even though he's disappeared off with his darkness, and it is trying to shine on him again…"


 * I thought it would be more interesting to let the gamers think about it. For example, "If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light"; in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn't really human. The reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone else besides Sora and co. may be because she doesn't exist as a human. Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion, so I think you can freely think for yourself about her.

These two quotes are simply saying it's a possible symbolism, but you are free to interpret Tifa however you wish. Nothing about them claim Tifa, without a doubt, is some physical manifestation of an element. That's why Nomura is using language like "it's possible", "you could say", "in that sense you can take it", "may be because", "she could also be". Nomura isn't claiming anything as factual. As seen in the second quote, he's letting players interpret Tifa however they wish. I interpreted her as a real human being who simply cares about Cloud. I never interpreted her as some strange "physical manifestation of light who isn't really human". It's a cute possible metaphor/symbolism, but I strongly disagree with the wiki pushing this metaphor as factual. Anything more than simply claiming "Tifa is symbolic of light" is original research and interpretation, and I heavily disagree with the "physical manifestation" bit. Soroxas (talk) 17:22, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The quotes are saying that Tifa is Cloud's light, and that that may mean she is incorporeal. You are misapplying the "that may mean" to be at the beginning of that sentence, rather than the middle. 18:03, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * On a side note, there is nothing strange within the setting about a "physical manifestation who isn't really human". The games are dripping with them. 18:06, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * No, they're not saying Tifa is Cloud's light. At most, they're saying she's a symbol of light. Being symbolic of something, and being literally something, are two completely different things. Yes, I know these games have light and darkness as actual forces, but he still mentioned symbol, meaning she is not necessarily literally light or a manifestation of light. Soroxas (talk) 22:07, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light" -- Yes, Nomura did say that. I'm not seeing how that is anything other than saying Tifa is Cloud's light.
 * Without getting a look at the original Japanese, I can't state it for certain, but I'm not seeing the difference in connotation you're claiming between Tifa being a manifestation of Cloud's light vs. being a symbol of his light.
 * Furthermore, let's just be clear about the context of these -- Nomura is still saying that's how they originally wanted to present her, but they decided to make it a little more vague. He still talks more about her being incorporeal than he does about her being human, so I'm not seeing how it's a strange or unsupportable claim to take that as the default. 22:45, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * You're still ignoring and handwaving the "as a symbol" part. And the "If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light" is simply that - an "if". And it's possible he was still talking in symbolism with that line. This part also contradicts the previous line; is Sephiroth light or darkness? If you can't tell the difference being a literal physical manifestation as opposed to mere symbolism/metaphor, then this conversation can't go anywhere. That part was in quotation marks and he said "if" so I view it as Nomura talking in ideas and hypotheticals, not a statement there. Nomura also said "we also wanted to present the possibility of her being a normal human" and "I think you can freely think for yourself about her." At the end of the day, putting "manifestation" on the wiki is editorializing, cherry picking, and interpretation-as-fact pushing. We should replace "manifestation" with "symbolism" and nothing more. Soroxas (talk) 23:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "You're still ignoring and handwaving the "as a symbol" part." -- No, I'm not. I already specifically responded to that, with the caveat that neither of us can insist on what that means without looking at the original Japanese text.
 * Symbols: Please remember that you're looking at a translation and that comma placement by a translator is not really respective of the original text. Let me highlight the conjunction that actually is coherent with the entire rest of the canon and interviews here:
 * "As a symbol of light, like Sephiroth, it's possible that she too was incorporeal."
 * To rephrase "it's possible that she too was incorporeal like Sephiroth".
 * "and he said "if"" --You are pushing way too much weight on specific particles being used in what is a fan-translation (and a very early one, to be clear) of a Japanese interview.
 * "putting "manifestation" (come back to this later) on the wiki is editorializing, cherry picking, and interpretation-as-fact pushing." -- the source you are referencing explicitly treats it as more valid than her being a regular human. To be clear -- by your logic it would be more "editorializing" (come back to this later) to claim she is merely human.
 * It's not editorializing to treat something the author suggested could be valid as valid. Editorializing is introducing opinion into a reporting of facts. Not treating what the authors stated is likely true, or what they specifically say was originally more explicitly stated, as valid.
 * But most importantly, you keep leaving out that the article is specifically talking about her role. Role. As in, the job she has as a character in the story (via metaphor and symbolism), not her in-universe physical nature. Like I said before, in the context of what the article is actually stating, "I'm not seeing the difference in connotation you're claiming between Tifa being a manifestation of Cloud's light vs. being a symbol of his light." 00:15, 26 March 2019 (UTC)


 * If you're going to say that we should get the original text, then we should remove it entirely for now. It still seems as if you're severely downplaying the symbolism aspect here. If a fan-translation indeed uses quotation marks and language like "if", then we should not just take it as factual. The nuances of language are extremely important when it comes to matters like these. Just because "she's a manifestation" may be more accurate and with the developer's intent than "she's a real human", it does not mean we should have either. At the end of the day, the article is saying something an interview does not. "Manifestation" implies ideas like "fantasy becoming real", and that some external force (i.e. light) is the reason why Tifa exists. It's too vague and most people would not interpret "Tifa is a manifestation of his light" the same way as "Tifa is symbolic of Cloud's light". Just because you don't see the difference in connotation, it does not mean other people don't. This is why we should be precise with our language. Just because Nomura is saying things like "it's possible that ____" and talking about it more than other possibilities, it does not mean we get to claim it as factual. We should not have "Tifa is only human" on the wiki either because there's no factual source for it, which is the same logic as why we should not have "Tifa is a manifestation of light" as there's no source for it. If you don't see the difference in connotation, then you wouldn't care if I change it to "Tifa is a symbol of Cloud's light?" then? After all, there's no difference to you then. Soroxas (talk) 00:38, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Dude. The article straight up doesn't say what you're claiming. You keep insisting that that sentence is talking about her physical nature, when it's explicitly talking about her role. Yes, I would care if you change it to say "Tifa is a symbol of Cloud's light", because then you'd be making a stronger claim than the interviews do. I straight up don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm claiming Tifa is a creature made of light, like Sora, when I've repeatedly stated that that's not my claim. 12:39, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't really see the problem. We're not claiming Tifa is a "physical manifestation of light who isn't really human", we're only claiming her role is that of Cloud's inner light. We never say that she is actually Cloud's light.  15:50, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The connotations of manifestation heavily don't align with what the interview is saying. The most the interviews are saying, factually, is that Tifa is only a symbol of light. Nowhere does it claim anything to do with light is with her role beyond symbolism. "Manifestation" implies something tangible and a real force (light) is the reason for her role, which is never explicitly stated, especially when the interview clearly uses the language "symbol" and "metaphor". It is wrong for this wiki to use manifestation and role (symbolic role is better) in this situation because of the connotations. This phrasing would be far better for the article and align with what the interview is saying: "Her symbolic role is that of Cloud's inner light." Is this fine? Soroxas (talk) 20:02, 26 March 2019 (UTC)