Template talk:KH3

Guys
I remember a confirmation that Olympus Coliseum will be included (again...). But I'm not 100% sure on the source where it's stated (and I don't even have a link for it). 10:44, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I removed it from the template because it says on the KH3 page here (I believe…) that Nomura stated it is in fact Mt. Olympus, a "new world" that will be appearing in KH3 instead. - 11:09, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Is it Necessary to have this template locked?
Is it really necessary to have this template locked? I mean the game is coming out this year and from the latest trailers that were released hours ago, it looks like the game is coming to fruition so I don't think their's any reason to lock this page, besides we have the MANY articles, press releases from Square Enix and trailers to confirm that these elements, characters will be in the game.--73.76.130.254 15:22, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * The template page was locked because anonymous users kept adding information based on trailers, despite one of the users pointing the reason we try to refrain from adding things officially in the template because of past experiences where things that were shown in trailers NEVER made it into the actual game upon release. In other words, it's protected so that people who are jumping to conclusions won't accidentally end up adding elements in the game that have at least a 50% of never making into the game itself. However, I do feel like the template has been locked for long enough, so I'll lift the protection. If things get out of hand again, however, it will be locked again. I believe this is the fair course of action.-- 20:17, 10 February 2018 (UTC)
 * To be honest with most of you, the ONLY thing that I would say that's considered Removed content for KH III are the graphics, the Command menu, Sora in his KH3 outfit in Mt. Olympus in the Orchestra trailer, and a few specific scenes that might not be in the final game or altered to a specific area (e.g. Sora with the Master Keeper Keyblade, certain parts during the battle of the Rock Titan, Sora & Company visiting Rapunzel's tower etc..). But the worlds, the characters present in the last trailers (Orchestra, D23 2017, D23 Japan 2018), and especially the party members are ALL confirmed to appear in this game. Yes it's the annonymous users fault that resulted in this page being locked, but Frankly I feel that KrytenKoro took the situation way to FAR by not only keeping the Template locked but ALSO dismissing the KH3 trailers as "content to be removed" even when most of the characters, especially the worlds were going to be in the game and confirmed via press releases and interviews by Nomura and his team.--73.76.130.254, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
 * First off: We're not a news site. "The game is coming out in a year" means "we still have a year before people actually need information from the wiki on this". If you want up-to-date leaks and spoilers, go to khinsider or kh13.
 * Second off, and should be end of discussion: Removed content. No amount of anybody saying "I really think this is going to end up in the game" is more important than actual, citeable facts, especially when the trailers still say "game still in development". Either you follow the wiki's actual policy, and provide citations to non-trailer commitments by the authors to include a topic, or the material in the trailers doesn't get treated as anything more than material that appeared in a trailer. We get this complaint every single time a game is coming up or a trailer comes out, and it's exactly as easily rebutted every single time. No. Either practice basic editorial fact-checking and responsibility, or don't edit. 15:58, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I've added as many cites as I could quickly find. The ones I couldn't source, I unlinked. Please find cites for them or remove them. 17:16, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Just enough already KrytenKoro, the game is coming out THIS year the party members from the confirmed worlds are ALL confirmed to appear and WON'T be removed and for goodness sake just stop it already. It get's frustrating just having YOU constantly say to users about "Removed content" "Removed content" when it comes the trailers of KH3 we've been receiving these last 3-4 years, and it's ironic to just see Eraqus and Xehanort as the ONLY added characters aside from Sora, Donald, Goofy and the worlds in the KH3 template and this was years before the Orchestra and the D23 trailer were released just last year.
 * And fyi, the ONLY Removed content for KH3 are going to be the following:
 * 1. The Graphics (Previously was in Luminous engine in 2013 before switching Unreal Engine in 2014 onwards)
 * 2. The Command menu (originally it was in the style of BBS before switching to the World style Command Menu in KH2)
 * 3. Sora in his KH3 outfit in Mt. Olympus in the Orchestra trailer, even though the latest trailer revealed he's in his KH2 outfit.
 * 4. Certain specific scenes/areas might not be in the final game or will be altered upon release (e.g. Sora with the Master Keeper Keyblade, certain parts during the battle of the Rock Titan, Sora & Company visiting Rapunzel's tower, Sora and Company in specific areas of Twilight Town etc..)--73.76.130.254 18:02, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Say what YOU want and continue to criticize other users about telling them to "look at the Removed content page" for specific parts not going to be in the final game, but seriously this has gone far enough and just grow up already!!--73.76.130.254 18:02, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * He is being grown up. You're the one throwing a tantrum. I don't mean to offend you or attack you, but we have RULES. Follow them, or leave. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 05:13, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "I don't mean to offend you or attack you, but we have RULES. Follow them, or leave." For your information, I'm not throwing a "tantrum" I'm just making my point following his "shrewd" personality on why this template should not be locked for that long prior to the release of the game this year, it's frustrating just saying that the trailers that we've got so far are in his words set to be "Removed content"!--73.76.130.254 05:31, 16 February 2018 (UTC)
 * I apologize. My mistake. But you have to understand, we can't just make an exception just because someone asks. Especially when you insult one of our hardworking, longtime contributors, just for trying to do his job and what he believes is right for the wiki.
 * For the record, I personally don't think much of anything that we've seen in the trailers will be removed from the final game. But I'm what you might call a "Super Optimist". Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 03:41, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
 * "what he believes is right for the wiki.
 * To correct this, I'm not doing what I believe is right for the wiki. I did not make up this policy, nor am I the only one who agreed to it. The policy was developed by the entire wiki consensus, has been proven correct each time the community has faltered and given in to pressure from gunjumpers, and I am merely enforcing it.
 * "And fyi, the ONLY Removed content for KH3 are going to be the following:"
 * Unless you work on the development team, you're making this up. Removed content includes material that was teased in the same year the game came out.
 * You have entirely failed to make any attempts at providing citations. Either provide citations, as I already did, or don't edit. This is an encyclopedia, not a news site, meaning all material must be at least citable.
 * In addition, this template is a navbox. It's not clear what you think it's for, but it's purpose is to provide links for readers to learn more. Filling it up with unlinked or redlinked names is totally opposite of its purpose.
 * If you're not willing to make the effort to properly source your changes, then kindly take leave of the site for a year and come back when the sources are easier to find. 17:01, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "To correct this, I'm not doing what I believe is right for the wiki. I did not make up this policy, nor am I the only one who agreed to it. The policy was developed by the entire wiki consensus, has been proven correct each time the community has faltered and given in to pressure from gunjumpers, and I am merely enforcing it."
 * Yes, but even so, you tend to go out of line especially when it comes to the Kingdom Hearts games that are set to come out this year or are in the final stages of development.
 * "Unless you work on the development team, you're making this up. Removed content includes material that was teased in the same year the game came out."
 * Look, I'm not a development team member. Most of the stuff put on this template and the comments where CLEARLY based on images released to the public, press releases BY Square Enix, and especially by Nomura himself when he has an interview with Famitsu or whomever.
 * "You have entirely failed to make any attempts at providing citations. Either provide citations, as I already did, or don't edit. This is an encyclopedia, not a news site, meaning all material must be at least citable."
 * Oh boy.Okay, this is where I'm going to have to disagree with you on what you said here, especially on the last part what you said regarding Citations.
 * I know you don't want to deal with this old issue again back in July of 2017 and get tired of reminding you about it. As I said in my first one most of these based on images released to the public, press releases BY Square Enix, and especially by Nomura himself when he has an interview with Famitsu or whomever as the cited sources.
 * What I'm still perplexed, unless you're going to critique me about "not reading well" and "LOOK at the Removed content" is that why do you continue to dismiss these information as not reliable "sources"? Yes you and the staff say you are an encyclopedia, that's your choice, but shouldn't most information need to include cited reliable sources to know where this info is coming from. I mean, I just don't see why those sources shouldn't be included if these are obviously confirmed by Nomura and his team.
 * "If you're not willing to make the effort to properly source your changes, then kindly take leave of the site for a year and come back when the sources are easier to find."
 * I'm willing to include sources, especially the ones that are reliable and done through interviews by Nomura and his team on this template.--73.76.130.254 18:04, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "you tend to go out of line " -- I follow the policy that the community has agreed upon and endorsed every time this comes up. If you want the opinions of other staff members, go ahead and ask them. I've had my actions checked and approved in the facebook staff group each time. Your opinion of what is "out of line" is not what the wiki's opinion is, nor the community's.
 * "where CLEARLY based on images released to the public, press releases BY Square Enix, and especially by Nomura himself when he has an interview with Famitsu or whomever." -- we were not in doubt about this, and we were not of the belief that the trailers were fanmade. We know the trailers were made by SE. The point is that they are not accurate representation of the final product, and we have over a decade's worth of evidence to demonstrate that (not to mention the explicit disclaimer on the trailers themselves). This is not a template for KH3 trailers, this is a template for KH3 the finished game.
 * "is that why do you continue to dismiss these information as not reliable "sources"?" -- because they have been proven in the past to be fallible, as has been stated and documented comprehensively multiple times. None of the rest of the stuff you say in that response has any clear connection to what you're responding to. You need to quit wasting time with the reaction gifs, and instead focus on constructing a coherent response.
 * You really need to stop claiming that we should ignore history and just "believe" that these trailers are accurate to the finished product, and instead focus on demonstrating which trailers are reliable. You are free to go back to removed content article, the trailers on the various pages, and determine an actual date at which the information in the trailers no longer diverged from the finished games. That would be a valid argument. But continuing to insist that we should just ignore the Removed content article, and continuing to insist that I'm just some kind of bully for not believing you and requiring you to provide citations as per the wiki's rules, is not a valid argument.
 * "I'm willing to include sources" -- then do it.
 * You also completely neglected to respond to the explanation that what you are trying to do with the template is counter to the purpose of the template. 18:07, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "then do it." -- FYI, I have been putting in those sources ever since YOU responded harshly, so don't go acting harshly at me and ANY user (anonymous or registered) especially when they are putting in sources (especially from interviews BY Nomura and the KH team). Besides can we just move on from this debate already--73.76.130.254 21:45, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

---


 * Re: the sources you added.
 * The IGN and Polygon articles are explicitly talking about the trailers, not official statements from the development team. The source needs to be an explicit statement from the development team that "X will appear in Kingdom Hearts III". That's already being pretty lenient.
 * We cite to khinsider when they are hosting a scan, a press release, or a translation of in-person speeches such as D23. When they are quoting an approved written article, like famitsu, we need to link to the original source.
 * The sources need to talk about actual articles to link to from this navbox, not general design progress notes. The world order thing I think can stay in, because we arrange party members (but not NPCs) by world order on other templates. 18:17, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Listen. We have a rule on this wiki that we won't place information from trailers on articles and navboxes, because they are likely to change. It's very likely that a lot of the stuff from the latest trailer will be in the game, but we can't know that for sure until it actually releases. And since we're a wiki, which should be a source of reliable information, we're playing it safe and only include stuff that's confirmed in interviews. That's our policy on this and it's not going to change. 18:38, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

You know, I've noticed over the last several months, and certainly since D23 Japan last month, the community seems to be split on whether or not we allow trailer information on the wiki as actual primary-source information. Id say the most democratic thing to do here is have an honest discussion on the merits of each side and put it up for the wiki community to vote. The fact of the matter is, the community changes, and with it, it's experience, perspective, and opinions on things like this. It stands to reason that, as time goes on and people change, the rules they believe should guide the wiki should change with it. Of course, it should be done reasonably. Not every policy can or should change at the whim of every user. Hence, I'm advocating for a vote. Now, I personally don't agree with the current policy for a couple reasons. First, despite supposed vast knowledge and experience, the wiki has always covered the details of unreleased game titles. In fact, I'm so confident about this that I'm willing to bet we did this as recently as 0.2, despite the fact I wasn't around then. Additionally, the notion that we're trying not to be inaccurate is also a poor argument, as denying the content of the trailers is causing the wiki to be inaccurate in it's coverage of Kingdom Hearts III. There shouldn't be any problem with having to correct inaccurate information later if we're striving to be accurate with the information we have now. Which leads me to my last point. Regardless of what we do, we cannot preemptively protect the wiki and its articles from errors all the time. That's why we have mods and admins with rollback, delete, and move rights. I cam assure you that even with all the effort you put into making sure mainspace articles on Kingdom Hearts III are perfectly accurate at launch, they won't be, and you'll find yourself making corrections to a lot of articles anyways. That's the way this, and other wikis, have always been run, knowing that all the information is likely going to change at anytime. How many articles have had to be corrected post-release because new information in interviews or new games have changed drastically our understanding of those topics? Does not Aqua's conversation with Ansem the Wise in Blank Points make less sense after 0.2 reveals she already knew Sora and Riku wield the Keyblade? Did we not all believe, and document on the wiki, that Strelitzia was the fifth union leader, only to find out shortly thereafter that she didn't even make it to the Keyblade War? Did we not think Roxas knew his fate to return to Sora when talking to Axel on the clock tower in Kingdom Hearts II Final Mix, only to find that Roxas doesn't "even know a Sora" during that same conversation in 358/2 Days? I'm afraid if the goal is for the wiki to always be right with this series, you'll need to wait until the series is over for that.

Now, I've advocated before, and continue to do so, that we should cover trailers as official from Square Enix and, like interview and the games themselves, canon and accurate until future information proves otherwise. I also think the way we cover the information from all sources regarding upcoming titles should be cautious, but acknowledging that the information has come out by Square Enix/Disney. So for example, while I wouldn't detail Vanitas's conversation in the D23 trailer, I would add to his article that he is set to return in Kingdom Hearts III. And while I wouldn't go into too much detail yet on a Toy Story World or a new party member's abilities, Id definitely create articles for both Flynn Rider as a new party member in the Kingdom of Corona, and explain in summary that in the Toy Story world, Sora, Donald, and Goofy help party members Buzz Lightyear and Woody to find their missing friends and the Organization they believe is behind it. That's how I would cover trailer/pre-release information: Cautiously and vaguely, but I would cover it. 20:03, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Not covering trailers doesn't make our information about KH3 incorrect. Incomplete, maybe, but in my opinion it's better to not put something on a page yet then to put false information on a page. I've looked at the history of the Aqua page, the most obvious character to appear in 0.2, and we didn't have any information about that game on it before release, except the game tag, and a section for it, because Aqua was confirmed in interviews. We never said Strelitzia was the fifth Union Leader either, only that she was chosen to be one, which is still correct. And sometimes information changes, or is "retconned", between games, which is why we need to correct that, but I wouldn't compare that to using trailers, as the retconned information was still from a released game.
 * I understand that the entire community may not be behind this, and if people want to change this, they have a right to vote on it (maybe create a forum for it, as we're kind of clogging up this talk page). And we've already agreed that people can make drafts for new worlds and characters (in KHWiki-space, in fact). You're saying you'd create a page for Flynn Rider, but we have barely seen him. So what exactly would be on the page? That's why we've agreed on creating drafts, so people can start articles for them, without having them in mainspace.
 * Yes, information on wiki's often need to be corrected or improved, but I think it's important that we have a clear rule on what we will and won't cover based on trailers. If we start creating articles for characters we see, people might also create articles for Heartless, Keyblades, abilities, etc. If we were to go with covering stuff "cautiously and vaguely", that would be a very vague rule of itself, and not clear at all to what we want to cover and what we won't. 12:27, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "First, despite supposed vast knowledge and experience, the wiki has always covered the details of unreleased game titles." -- yes, and we do cover the trailers and some of the revealed mechanics -- on specific pages quarantined from the rest of the wiki. We've also encouraged people to make draft articles to be approved once the games come out and the info can be verified. However, instead of that we just keep seeing people wanting to insert dead links into this template.
 * "Now, I've advocated before, and continue to do so, that we should cover trailers as official from Square Enix and, like interview and the games themselves, canon and accurate until future information proves otherwise." -- The trailers themselves explicitly state that they are not canon, and represent a work still in development.
 * "There shouldn't be any problem with having to correct inaccurate information later if we're striving to be accurate with the information we have now." -- Taunt.
 * "they won't be," -- that's not really an argument to change policy to ensure that pages are more inaccurate.
 * "So for example, while I wouldn't detail Vanitas's conversation in the D23 trailer, I would add to his article that he is set to return in Kingdom Hearts III." -- there is nothing stopping anyone from doing this, in the "other appearances" section. Acceptable sources have been found for Vanitas.
 * "If we start creating articles for characters we see, people might also create articles for Heartless, Keyblades, abilities, etc." -- The precedent in the past was to allow certain quarantined pages, such as Unnamed Heartless, to have galleries of stuff spotted in the trailers. I've been encouraging people to go through and add those to the KH3 gallery. Let me be clear -- we have no policy requiring us to not cover the trailers at all. The policy is only against letting that coverage set roots across existing articles on the wiki, as it becomes exponentially more difficult to review and correct when the time comes. Draft articles in a set space are okay (and hell, I don't think it would violate the existing policy to have this template link to them). Coverage of the trailers in sections making it clear they're talking about the trailers, not the finished game are okay. Articles that are exclusively about unreleased game elements are okay. Coverage of existing topics that have been verified by sources more reliable than trailers are okay.
 * The only thing that the policy forbids is cross-wiki coverage in existing articles of topics exclusively shown in the trailers. 13:15, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Jessy, Bullseye and Pegasus
Exactly, where they are confirmed?--93.150.193.223 17:26, 15 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Jesse and Bullseye given in the source I listed when I posted them. I've removed Pegasus, since on closer reread the article talks about "chariot", not "pegasus". 16:58, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Rider and Hades
To clarify:
 * The KHInsider article only used the term "Rider" in the context of KHInsider itself talking about the trailer. They were not reporting on information coming from an official source. The level of authority that statement had would be equivalent to them calling him "that sexy hunk" or "that guy we want to see covered in nothing but baby oil". It's not a primary source for the name, and it's still completely possible for Square to choose to leave out "Rider", just as they did with Sultan Hamed Bobolonius II, Glut the Shark, Tick-Tock the Crocodile, Yuffie Kisaragi, Aerith Gainsborough, Tifa Lockhart, Cloud Strife, Cid Highwind, Zack Fair, Selphie Tilmitt, Seifer Almasy, Vivi Ornitier, Setzer Gabbiani, Diablo, Prince Florian, Prince Kit, Queen Grimhilde, Captain Hector Barbossa, Captain James Bartholomew Hook, Gaston LeGume, etc.
 * The Japanese articles have explicitly talked about Maleficent, Pete, and Hades as being part of a group of Disney Villains, like the Ultimanias and first game do. If Maleficent has some kind of supra-role outside of that group in the finished game, we have no sources for that yet, and honestly, that's pretty much the role she's had since the beginning, just with heavy turnover in that group -- which is why the Ultimanias have consistently talked about her as part of the "Disney Villains" group, which is distinct from simply being an antagonist in a Disney movie. See page 9 of the Memorial Ultimania. She is the Xemnas of that group, even if the only name we've gotten for it is the out-of-universe name "Villains". Repeatedly removing her from that grouping would be like removing Young and Master Xehanort from the new Organization XIII simply because they have a "bigger role" in the Organization's activities -- they're still members, and they are still acting in concert. 16:12, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd like to add to the first point that Flynn's real name isn't even Flynn Rider. His name is actually "Eugene Fitzherbert", and if that name does end up in the game somewhere, that's what we should call the page, according to our rules (see Squall Leonhart or Daisukenojo Bito). So until we get a release, we can't know what to call the page. And if people keep on edit warring about it, I'm locking the template again. 16:37, 30 March 2018 (UTC)