Talk:List of Gummi Ship Blueprints (KH)

Table tryout
''Attempting to work on the table for this page. I need: 1) a space for the Kingdom Hearts version of the blueprint, 2) a space for the Final Mix version of the blueprint, 3) a space for the blueprint name, and 4) a space for where the blueprint is obtained. If anyone can help me out with this, I'll be grateful!''

''EDIT 22:03, 11 January 2012 (UTC) I need to confirm what kind of stats the KH1 gummi ships have, and where to put the obtention details, and how we're going to make a space for the FM version of the blueprint. HELP PLEASE!!'' Tambours  Néant  Ensemble ! 

List of KH Models
...And you get the point. Are there any stats TNE or myself missed that need to be added to the coding? Also, how do we plan on incorporating such a large table into the current article?-- Xion 4  ever  13:36, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * How does that look? --ShardofTruth 15:38, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Dang it, Shard. There you go again one-up'ing me. Haha. ^_^ It looks great. Nice job. I am quite curious, though. How did you obtain the levels ["COM.LV1"], and the blocks? The guide only lists the defense, speed, attack, and how it is obtained. Did you physically remove the ship apart to get the blocks? o.o-- Xion 4  ever  17:05, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The SYS and COM levels are from the Ultimania, the block list too but there is a gamefaq that also covers this information here. I'm currently working on a way to make the block image insertion easier. --ShardofTruth 17:27, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I see. I will leave this alone then until you finish your test/coding edits.-- Xion 4  ever  17:35, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The blocks should be an image on the left cell of a 2x2 table while the actual name and amount are on the left cell. 17:44, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * So you want to include every block's image instead of just the description? Some ships contain over twenty different block types, I think the table would get too big in their cases. But maybe I didnt completely understand how you would list them. Could you make a quick example?


 * Also there is no easy way to include the FM versions of the blue prints because the enemy ships have different appearances in KHFM their stats and blocks are also mostly different, but this can wait for now because I have to get the blueprint images first. --ShardofTruth 17:53, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * About the images: Some are already uploaded -> Cindy type B KHFM, Cindy type A KHFM, Cindy type A KH, Cindy type B KH That is all of them from the unused images category.-- Xion 4  ever  18:03, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I can't give an example but what I meant is a table similar to those of the Treasure tables, where it says "Command", "Map" etc. would be where the Block image is located, while the actual block name and amount is where the "location" is, and it would repeat with just those two columns. 18:09, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I see and that can defintely be done, but it will get messy if we have a ship with 20+ different blocks because then the template will be blown out of proportion even if we use four columns instead of two, a collapsible table could help here. But would that really be necessary? I mean it looks kinda messy now (the Ultimania uses the same style by the way) but its not really that of an important information that we need sort and present it, or is it? If you're missing one treasure chest that is one thing, but can't image someone searching for a gummi block missing on his ship and not finding it. I don't know, what do you think Xion4ever? --ShardofTruth 20:57, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Erry's idea sounds ideal if each individual Gummi Ship/blueprint had it's own article. You could have separate tables: one, like Shard has above, showing a rundown of the ship information. Then, you could create a tab table like Erry proposed to show the blocks used in the ship. Or, if we want to keep all blue prints on this page, how about this? Use Shard's table for all blue prints. However, create a new section- as in, ==NEW SECTION== - on the blueprint page with Erry's tab chart, showing the Gummi Blocks each blue print uses. Just a thought.

I must agree with Shard though, that the coding would be pretty massive. Not only that, but the chart would look disproportional if the collapsible/tab information was rather large. If the Ultimania is doing it as the table above shows, I'm okay with that. I agree that the Gummi Blocks should be shown, but as to be it in Shard's table, I think not. I call for a reformating of the actual article. What about the information not listed on the above table? [The gummi ship routes explaining where the blueprint can be obtained.] I find it much easier to list in the tables "Dropped by Omega enemies" versus "Dropped by Omega enemies, which can be found on the Hollow Bastion-End of the World route."-- Xion 4  ever  21:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I know I said a month, but I didn't want to wait until the whole article had been done first:

Kingdom (キングダム)

As for the blocks: I think it would work best to have a 8x5 table listing block1 through block20, with pictures and a tally list. So, block1=Cure-G, block1q=1, etc. The gummi block images would link to the gummi block on the gummi block list. This would be a table within the main ship infobox.

Like this, basically:

It might help the spacing by switching the name and image cells so that none of the rows are enlarged too much.

This should not be too ridiculous to code, either. 06:01, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * This looks really good and it would fit with the KHII template too, so maybe we should redo it, to see how it works out. --ShardofTruth 15:27, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a plan. Nice work, Kryten.-- Xion 4  ever  15:45, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * We're gonna need to figure out how to get the protect-g symbols to show up correctly within a link, but otherwise that's what I was thinking of. Modify as you see fit. 18:58, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I think there is no way to do it, we'll have to use the same names that are already on the armor gummi page (Protect-G (Quarter-Sphere) for example), but at least the image will be correct. --ShardofTruth 19:52, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Ha! I think you're the only one able to upload Gummi Block images anyway, so just make sure that whatever naming scheme you choose is applied to the list of blocks, too. Once you have a basic scheme determined, we can activate the image template so that it shows blocks instead of the placeholder. 21:28, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Images
Should we have a gallery or what? I get rather lost on what I need to find and looking to probably set things right here in this imageless page. LexisMikaya (talk) 07:06, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * here's my take on it:

Slightly expanded to have a Japanese/Katakana and romanji box. Still working on how put the name in a better place. I feel it's a bit weird :x LexisMikaya (talk) 19:22, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Good work, this looks promising. I think the name box is big enough to hold both the katakana and the romanjii, what do you think? Also some of the models change their apperance along the corresponding enemies in the Final Mix version, so an image tab would be needed. --77.184.71.226 19:42, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm probably just used to everything being in a separate box. I made 2 others, and ripping from the scans will be a while. I'll do some comparisons when I find my copy of normal KHI. LexisMikaya (talk) 20:40, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * (New to this type of threading btw) I found the scans did include KHI as well. I should really sort it into folders. Alexander looks completely different in FM. I'll work on it as I keep at this gummi ship projectLexisMikaya (talk) 20:56, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * As far as this goes, the template seen above already has everything but the name parameters, which I can add right in. Consensus was to use the previous template, so it'd probably be more efficient to work on implementing that one on the page than continuing the draft you presented just now. 21:42, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I also added a notes section, but not sure if that's ever gonna by used. Also I'm rather new to this wiki so not really sure where to start and looked at the talk page for ideas.LexisMikaya (talk) 22:04, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Kryten's template is completely functional now as all the gummi block images have been uploaded already, I also think we should go from here. 07:11, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll probably start doing renders from the scans provided. Of course, I'm not going to do them all at once @~@. Maybe a few a day and I will eventually do enemies as well. Still sorting them out so I don't accidentally mix them up. What about the ones that are different from from KH to KHFM? Will that be a separate template or just simply tabbed (probably more than likely tabbed)? まそっぷ ！ (talk) 09:31, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I updated the template and after several tries it's now able to show a FM image:

I also just noticed that we need a different block list for the FM variant, so maybe we should tab the whole template instead. 10:52, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Looks like the best thing to do is to get the whole template tabbed out. Should probably figure out how to put a notes section too, but that's just me being super specific about having everything on one template for a large page of templates. While it's no necessary, I, personally, feel that it might be a bit useful to note a few things such as how Alexander FM is 199 block and is much more sturdy than most ships. On the other hand, Omega lacks a cockpit, engine, and weapons. Just a small place for minimal notes or something. So far it looks great, except for the whole tab image since it uses different blocks and such. まそっぷ ！ (talk) 11:34, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The Final Mix versions are essentially different ships, and so should have separate templates tabbed to the whole. On the topic of notes, I don't see what the point is; we already have an armor rating parameter, and the lack of necessary gummis should be evident from the gummi list; at best, it would be prudent to add a "Flyable" parameter, like the game itself has. I don't think it's wise to encourage editors to add an arbitrary, qualitative analysis of values that are primarily quantitative and already represented. 15:41, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Finally have all the renders done and have begun putting it together in my Sandbox. Took a while for me to figure out how the template works. Is the format okay or is it just gonna be the template on its own? まそっぷ ！ (talk) 21:26, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Implementation
I'm late to the party so I need to ask how are we going to implement the templates? Will each model have their own article with a lead, template and Design/Etymology/Origin section? 08:38, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The enemies will get their own page, I'm not so sure about the models. They were always presented as tables or lists and now in KHII's case in a row of templates. If we want them all on a page of their own the template has to be redesigned from scratch and made more in a vertical infobox. In KHII's case that would mean we could tab the Highwind, Invincible and Falcon types like we do with keyblades (and add the Tiny Ship in there too). This would most certainly be the professional approach, but that's a lot of pages to write. 10:52, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Can't it just stay horizontal like now? I know it would be inconsistent and won't look as great but would it be that bad? 14:12, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The Invincibles, etc., are essentially separate ships already, so I'm not sure we need to tab them. Beyond that, what would be on a separate page that isn't already on the infobox? We separate out the accessories and items because sometimes there are things that can't be handled in a lump article, like synthesis recipes or special sidequests, but generally if everything in a series is just going to be a set of infoboxes, then we lump them together (like Sleights, before they started reappearing in other games). 15:43, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * You can have design or origin section but I'm not sure how important that is. 17:13, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really, I would say. At best, we could justify a parameter linking to which exact version of the summon the ship is based on. 09:50, 5 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that's the way to go then. 18:11, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

Implementation, part 2
Two years have passed since the last discussion and I'm yet to see any images or tables. What's going on?

Meanwhile, I'm scouring the Net looking for KH1 Gummi Ship blueprints, only to find either screencaps from The Keyhole, or really low-res images from elsewhere. Help please? TRS NX  18:56, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure why you are the scouring the net to find images of the blueprints, when almost all of them were already uploaded by LexisMikaya here. She was also working on filling out the new template but stopped at one point, probably because she lost interest and nobody was really helping or caring. I still find it the template a tad too clunky, maybe we should use a real infobox instead. Everything that is needed to continue working on this project can be found on this very page. -- 19:35, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

The only reason I'm doing so is because if you see the category of Final Mix ship blueprints, the ones gained from Mission Mode have not been added to the list (e.g. Tonberry, Moogle...). There's still a ways to go with it. I saw LexisMikaya's work and I regret that I wasn't on the wiki then, but I and others should not be accused of not helping or caring, unless we were actually there during that time.

And to add on to the line of Tonberry, Moogle... and all the other missing blueprints, we don't have everything to continue with this project; we are still missing some bits of information. TRS NX  19:43, 19 September 2015 (UTC)
 * TNE, Shard didn't accuse you of not helping or caring. He said that nobody was helping Lexis. That's not an indictment, that's a statement of fact. 19:56, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Apologies. I'm sorry.

Back to the task at hand: what should we do about the missing blueprints? TRS NX  06:17, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * EDIT 16:32, 20 September 2015 (UTC): I've started uploading images of the missing blueprints. Feel free to do with them as you all see fit. TRS NX 

EDIT 17:32, 20 September 2015 (UTC): Sourced all that I could. There's no YT video dedicated to showing the new blueprints, and the only images of KHFM-exclusive blueprints I could find were Tonberry, Moogle and Bahamut. If anyone can rip assets off the KHFM or KH1.5 disc, I'll be grateful. TRS NX  17:32, 20 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I wasn't really blaming anyone, it's hard when you push your wiki project alone. Anyway, I could take images of the models directly from the game (like I did for the gummi blocks because the scan quality wasn't good enough), they would look better than screenshots from Youtube videos or I could crop the rest of the renders on the weekend. Which do we prefer? Model ripping is a bit more complicated with Gummi ships, since they don't have a texture I would have to color them myself. There is no difference to the 1.5 HD ReMIX though.-- 06:06, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

Wait, gummi ships are texture-less??? O.O I... didn't know that. That's actually a first for me. Crikey. Well-- if it is possible to get a nice angle within the screen, feel free to take a game screenshot. If not, model it'll have to be. (Though ships can be rotated 360 degrees, I think -- I do wonder what it'd end up like.) TRS NX  10:53, 21 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I need a bit more time for this, my KHFM savegame with all models unlocked has vanished, if I can't find it, I have to repeat some of the gummi missions to get the remaining one. Posing the models in the gummi editor is really easy though and I think these images will turn out great. For the enemies we will need the scans though. -- 07:53, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Can I transfer my PS3 savefile to you? 15:45, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I found it and I'm super glad because I think the third Atlantica mission and the interfering Monstro gave me PTSD. -- 21:47, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Merge
I think that this page and the "List of Gummi Ship Blueprints (KHII)" page should be merged together with the "Gummi Ship" page. Does anyone else think so? It could have these two pages redirecting to it in case there's anyone who's used to typing in the name of the two pages and it could also have the redirects: "List of Gummi Ship Blueprints" and "Gummi Ship Blueprints" I think these two pages should be merged with the main Gummi Ship page, simply to keep things consistent because the pages such as "Heartless", ''Nobodies", and "Keyblade Wielders" don't have separate pages like "List of Heartless (KH)" and "List of Heartless (KHII)" so it seems weird to me that these Gummi Ship pages are different. Thank you :) --Elfdemon (talk) 22:54, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The problem with these lists is that some game mechanics work differently in the different games, hence why we have so many different pages for commands. With the information from all the different games added, the page would become cluttered very easily, removing the reason these it exists in the first place: to give an overview. It can work though, if you have a good draft you can post it on the respective talk page.
 * Another two things: First the images from the KH Gummi Ship models are already uploaded on the wiki, you can find some links in the topics above or check them out here. Secondly there is no need to start the same conversations on every talk page that's affected, if you want to talk about more than one page or have ideas in general you should start a topic on the forums. Thanks. -- 20:59, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Shiva and Stingray
Apparently these two Gummi ships look different in the International versions, or at least they look different than the images in the Ultimania. http://i.imgur.com/bknXBpP.png

Does anyone here have the original Japanese version by any chance, I couldn't find image material/videos from the Gummi ships at all. -- 22:51, 1 February 2016 (UTC)
 * That Stingray looks the same as the FM version. 16:23, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh, I see what you mean. this page confirms that those are the only two that look different in whichever English version that page is using. Here, at 2:06, some Shivas fly by in what is supposed to be the original version of the game, so that confirms our "original" image of them is correct. Here, at 3:45, they look like the International image you provided. My guess would be that Shiva and Stingray were changed along with the English expansions, and then everything was changed again for FM. 16:46, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks, still this makes things needlessly complicated. Since the NA versions are our standard here, the International images for Shiva and Stingray should be used as non-FM images, and the Japanese images put in a gallery. Maybe I can get my hands on the original Japanese version to get better images but I'm working on the others first. -- 20:23, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * We also eventually need to get images for the different variants of enemy ships, like Cindy A and B. We're going to need full articles for each model, really. 01:56, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Is it at all within the realm of possibility to mock up the original Japanese Ahriman, Stingray, and Shiva within the HD game and get screenshots of them? Or is that going to be stupidly difficult? 11:11, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Gummi Enemies
Someone needs to add pictures of the KH1 Gummi Enemies to this page.
 * This page is going to be split into individual pages for each model, as with the KHII gummi ships. 15:15, 3 February 2016 (UTC)

LexisMikaya draft
So, the rips look way better than the photoshopped images we have for the normal models. Would it be asking too much to keep going with the ripping? 23:43, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
 * No, it will just take a little time. I tried to pose them like the official renders but the gummi editor is not really flexible with its camera. Also, as I said, I can't really do that with the variations of the enemy models that are not covered by your own blueprints (e.g. the red Omega model). -- 05:54, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Awesome! I think it's totally fine for the player blueprints to be of higher quality than the enemy blueprints, especially if there as pretty as your work is. 13:04, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Oh my word, Shard. Awesome work.

Looking through this I can see that a lot of changes were made to some of the blueprints to make them look like they came straight out of the last Final Fantasy game in which they appeared. The ones based on the aeons -- Cindy, Sandy, Mindy and Ifrit -- as well as Golem and Leviathan, all have the same thing done to them. It'd be worth mentioning where their respective appearances come from, as in which games. TRS NX  16:48, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
 * For those, we could probably just do with the official FF art or sprites that best matches the design. For the original KH models, we'd have to get more prosaic, describing stuff like how the Siren appears to have megaphones. 00:35, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

From LexisMikaya's draft, left here until pages get made for each model: File:Model Kingdom KH.png|Kingdom Model (キングダムモデル) File:Model Hyperion KH.png|Hyperion (ハイペリオン) File:Model Geppetto KH.png|Geppeto Model (ゼペットモデル) File:Model Cid KH.png|Cid Model (シドモデル) File:Model Leon KH.png|Leon Model (レオンモデル) File:Model Yuffie KH.png|Yuffie Model (ユフェモデル) File:Model Aerith KH.png|Aerith Model (エアリスモデル) File:Model Cactuar KH.png|Cactuar (サボテンダー) File:Model Chocobo KH.png|Chocobo (チョコボ) File:Model Cindy KHFM.png|Cindy (マグ) File:Model Shiva KHFM.png|Shiva (シヴァ) File:Model Lamia KH.png|Lamia (ラミア) File:Model Sandy KHFM.png|Sandy (ドグ) File:Model Sylph KH.png|Sylph (シルフ) File:Model Carbuncle KHFM.png|Carbuncle (カーバンクル) File:Model Mindy KHFM.png|Mindy (ラグ) File:Model Goblin KH.png|Goblin (ゴブリン) File:Model Bomb KHFM.png|Bomb (ボム) File:Model Remora KHFM.png|Remora (レモラ) File:Model Ahriman KHFM.png|Ahriman (アーリマン) File:Model Imp KH.png|Imp (インプ) File:Model Siren KHFM.png|Siren (セイレーン) File:Model Stingray KH.png|Stingray (スティングレイ) File:Model Catoblepas KH.png|Catoblepas (カトブレパス) File:Model Adamant KHFM.png|Adamant (アダマンタイマイ) File:Model Serpent KH.png|Serpent (サーパント) File:Model Ifrit KHFM.png|Ifrit (イフリート) File:Model Odin KHFM.png|Odin (オーディン) File:Model Atomos KHFM.png|Atomos (アトモス) File:Model Golem KHFM.png|Golem (ゴーレム) File:Model Diablos KHFM.png|Diablos (ディアボロス) File:Model Deathguise KH.png|Deathguise (デスゲイズ) File:Model Typhoon KH.png|Typhoon (テュポーン) File:Model Alexander KHFM.png|Alexander (アレクサンダー) File:Model Leviathan KHFM.png|Leviathan (リヴァイアサン) File:Model Ramuh KH.png|Ramuh (ラムウ) File:Model Omega KH.png|Omega (オメガ) File:Model Moogle KHFM.png|Moogle (モーグリ) File:Model Valefor KHFM.png|Valefor (ヴァルファレ) File:Model Pupu KHFM.png|Pupu (コヨコヨ) File:Model Cerberus KHFM.png|Cerberus (ケルベロス) File:Model Tonberry KHFM.png|Tonberry (トンベリ) File:Model Pandaemonium KHFM.png|Pandaemonium (パンデモニウム) File:Model Ixion KHFM.png|Ixion (イクシオン) File:Model Gilgamesh KHFM.png|Gilgamesh (ギルガメッシュ) File:Model Phoenix KHFM.png|Phoenix (フェニックス) File:Model Eden KHFM.png|Eden (エデン) File:Model Bahamut KHFM.png|Bahamut (バハムート)

Also, this is a really good place to start for each article's content. I think the gummi block bill of material is going to have to be a separate table on the page, similar to how we do the Spirit Boards, but I'll have a mockup of the article infobox up in a jiff. 09:37, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Okay, done. It will eventually need code to allow for the NA/JP different blueprints, as well as stuff like Cindy A and Cindy B, but this should be enough to get article started. 11:12, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Great work Kryten. So the regular models and the enemies should share one page like the Dream Eaters (or like it's done on the French wiki)? As for the enemy variants, these are the things we have to consider:
 * 1. When a Gummi Ship model looks different in the Final Mix it has obviously another blueprint we have to cover. The stats (stars) can also be different.
 * 2. Enemies often come in two variants, A & B (Omega and Lamia also have a C variant), who look different and have different stats. These stats don't change in the Final Mix, only some appearances.
 * 3. Every enemy variant may or may not have a Normal and Fast type. These types don't look different but (like every variant) may drop different stuff and can appear on different routes.
 * Here is a complete enemy list:

Adamant A Adamant B Ahriman A (Fast) Ahriman A (Normal) Ahriman B Alexander A Alexander B Atomos A Atomos B Bomb A (Fast) Bomb A (Normal) Bomb B (Fast) Bomb B (Normal) Carbuncle A (Fast) Carbuncle A (Normal) Carbuncle B Catoblepas A Catoblepas B Cindy A (Fast) Cindy A (Normal) Cindy B Deathguise A Deathguise B (Fast) Deathguise B (Normal) Diablos A Diablos B Goblin A Golem A Golem B Ifrit A Ifrit B Imp A Lamia A Lamia B Lamia C (Fast) Lamia C (Normal) Leviathan A Leviathan B Mindy A (Fast) Mindy A (Normal) Odin A Odin B Omega A Omega B (Fast) Omega B (Normal) Omega C Ramuh A Ramuh B Remora A Sandy A Serpent A Shiva A (Fast) Shiva A (Normal) Shiva B (Fast) Shiva B (Normal) Siren A Siren B Stingray A (Fast) Stingray A (Normal) Stingray B Sylph A Sylph B Typhoon A Typhoon B
 * Starting with the Final Mix I will crop the enemy renders from the Ultimania now. The Japanese version of KH is underway, I'm not sure what can be done about the International enemy models of Shiva and Ahriman at the moment. -- 21:27, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * So, basically we need tabs for all variations, split into three levels (1: KH/FM, 2:A/B/C, 3:Normal/Fast), right? Do we want them all in one template or should it be made so you have to use the template twice, once for KH and once for FM? As for the gummi blocks used, I think we should use a separate table like the KHx Keyblade recipes. 21:58, 16 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Wow...I had figured the KH and FM blueprints would have different stats, but I didn't realize that the A/B stuff would as well. Yeah, this template is going to have to just be treated like the Days weapons, with the tabs hard-coded on each page rather than automatically handles by the template.
 * Yes, the plan is to have blueprint handled along with the enemy info, like Dream Eaters, and the bill of material handled like the KHX recipes. If you can get me stats for...let's say each variant of Odin, I'll start a test article for that. 22:46, 16 February 2016 (UTC)