Talk:AntiSora

Anti-Sora?
Anti-Sora? I thought his name was Shadow Sora, like the Shadow Roxas in his Twilight Town.Therequiembellishere 02:18, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


 * In the official game guide for the game the normal enemy is called Shadow Sora, but the boss is called Anti-Sora.

Durza - 10:17 PM - 3/2/'07
 * By "the normal enemy" are you talking about the small one that fly around in the battles?Therequiembellishere 21:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I don't think it's a Heartless, it's just his Shadow-er-Anti-Form.Therequiembellishere 21:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do mean that. And I guess I don't know if it's a Heartless or not, but I'd that's the best way to categorize it. Durza 16:46 - 5 March - 2007
 * I don't think it's the best way. Sure, it's Heartless-esque, but a true Heartless certainly can't be born when Sora hasn't lost his heart. I say it should be a normal enemy.
 * It's possible it's just a Heartless that can take the form of someone else, not necessarily Sora's Heartless. Other than that, I have no real opinion.  Scott ch 18:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Merge
Can this be merged with Anti-Sora? They seemed to be lesser versions of A.Sora.--N/A
 * * thumbs up* --Hecko X 11:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

article needs a bit of cleaning up and to make things clearer. reading this discussion page cleared it up, but shadow sora and anti-sora need to be made more distinct.

I found anti-sora to be an incredibly hard fight (second to the riku fight before behemoth, which murdered me for days.) might wanna stick a tip or two in there if you have one. personally, i just retry until i get a lucky break.

"Heartless"

 * 1) It showed up at the Awakening, and became a Heartless;

In a dream sequence that has no bearing on the reality of the Kingdom Hearts universe. Unless you believe Sora, while sleeping, was literally shunted into another dimension with tall cylinders that have images of princesses on them.


 * 2) Hook calls the Shadow Sora's Heartless;

No, he doesn't.

The only times he mentions Heartless are


 * "Nothing! The hold is crawling with Heartless. Let them keep an eye on the brats."


 * "Hmph. You’re wasting your time! The Heartless have devoured that girl's heart. I'll stake me other hand it’s lost forever."

AntiSora is never mentioned in dialogue. Ever. You are now imagining evidence for your position.

And Sora's Heartless is, surprise, the Shadow he became in Hollow Bastion! You can't have a Heartless while still having a heart.


 * 3) ) It has yellow Heartless goddamn eyes;

So does AntiForm and Hostile Program. Are these now Pureblood Heartless?


 * 4) What the hell do you think Shadows ARE?

I ask you the same thing. Do you seriously think they're the actual, literal shadows of beings? When there's no indication in the games? At all?

Sora has no shadow during that part of the game. The shadow is playful and mocks Sora. Y'know, like Peter Pan's shadow in the film, Peter Pan, which the Neverland world is based on? It has no entry in the Journal, not even in Final Mix, as opposed to every Heartless. Plackers 20:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * ...really? You're trying to use "It's too absurd to believe that such a world could exist?" in Kingdom Hearts? By the way, do you remember how he got to Traverse Town?
 * ....um, yeah, and the hold was crawling with Shadow Sora's. It's pretty 2+2=4 right there.
 * ...then where did the first Heartless come from? Again, the series is pretty clear that Pureblood's are the darkness within hearts made manifest - this is why whenever you see someone having their heart stolen, they become an Emblem, not a Pureblood, while a Darkside appears from the whole Sora, and Zexion explains that the Destiny Islands Darkside was from Riku. As for "making up evidence" - umm, you're asking us to believe that there is some type of enemy called "Dark Manifestation" (a term you made up), that Riku has the power to make them here, when he mentions being able to control Heartless, but not anywhere else in the series, where he has pretty explicit power over darkness, and is better at it to boot, and that for some reason this is the only enemy in the series that is neither Heartless, Nobody, Disney, or Final Fantasy. What?!
 * Also, what do you think Guardian is? It's not part of Xehanort's Heartless, it's, well, his guardian. Which is not his Heartless.
 * Well, Nomura did say that AntiForm was, yes. Hostile Program is not, but seriously - manifested shadows with Heartless eyes, made by someone who says he learned how to control the Heartless? Who do you think you're fooling?
 * Umm, fuck yeah: "Creatures that seemed born of darkness...What are they? Are they truly sentient beings? Could they be the shadows of those who lost their hearts in my experiments?"
 * ...Bit Sniper, huh? How about World of Chaos? Or Guardian? You do have a chance to pull out your journal after the first battle with Ansem, so it's not that you just can't check it. How about Shadow Sora? And why would that matter, anyway? If it was a Disney character as you claim, well Glut is too.


 * Your main thrust here seems to be that the AntiSora is based off of a concept in Peter Pan, so it must not be a Heartless. Well, that ignores how pretty much all Heartless appear - the Bouncywild is based off of monkeys in Tarzan, the Nightwalker is based off the Chinese Jiang Shi. Even the Pureblood Dark Thorn is based off of Beast's rose. Glorious   CHAOS!  22:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * How is how Sora got to Traverse Town germane to anything? Dive to the Heart was an internal process for Sora. He never actually left the beach he was sleeping on.
 * Learn how to use apostrophes correctly, please. They indicate possession or contraction. Not plurals. And within the hold, there are, in no particular order, Pirates, Shadows, and Barrel Spiders. In much more ample numbers than the single Shadow Sora who appears in the room. Why you take this to mean an absolute reference to AntiSora/Shadow Sora is baffling. And there is only one Shadow Sora, as should be evident by the fact that it escapes every time you defeat it.
 * Xehanort's experiments. How exactly did Sora transform into a Shadow if Purebloods are only the darkness? Zexion never said such. The entire point of that conversation was to show Riku as a creature of darkness, akin to a Heartless. ("And now you belong to the darkness. Look at what you are!") Again, you take metaphor literally. And, Christ, "Dark Manifestation"? It's called the English language. People describe things by words. That does not make a proper noun or any meaning beyond what the words themselves mean. You have an annoying knack for this. As for your last question, Shadow Roxas. Lingering Sentiment. Hayner. The Data Replicas of Organization XIII. Hostile Program. Riku. Riku Replica. Xion. Vexen's Clone Sora (or is that a ZOMG PUREBLOOD HEARTLESS, too?). Crank Tower, I guess.
 * ...A part of Xehanort's Heartless? Do people really believe it's a being in its own right?
 * Provide the source for Nomura saying AntiForm is.
 * Sigh. SHADOW, the literal absence of light on a surface due to an object blocking the light rays, is not the same thing as SHADOW, the figurative dark remnant or aspect of a being. Please learn to separate the literal from the figurative. AntiSora/Shadow Sora here concerns the LITERAL SHADOW of Sora, which he does not have in the sequence when Shadow Sora/AntiSora is in existence and gets back when AntiSora is defeated, in case you still completely fail to comprehend this fact I am trying to convey you.
 * Two are in the final battle, which they never base journal entries on, nor could you be able to check it after defeating both. Guardian is an aspect of Xehanort's Heartless (so is World of Chaos, for that matter).
 * My "main thrust" is that there is no evidence making this a Heartless. It has no journal entry. None of the Ultimanias refer to it as a Heartless. This is speculation you are passing off as fact. Speculation based on, uh, the presence of yellow eyes. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

You also seem to be interpreting this section:

"Riku: The Heartless obey me now, Sora. Now I have nothing to fear.

Sora: You’re stupid. Sooner or later they’ll swallow your heart.

Riku: Not a chance. My heart’s too strong.

Sora: Riku...

Riku: I’ve picked up a few other tricks as well. Like this, for instance"

As meaning that the Shadow Sora creation is distinct from his ability to control the Heartless. Well, this ignores the main mythology behind Pureblood Heartless (that they are the darkness in people's hearts) and the symbolism in the beginning of the game. Plus, if he is creating Heartless in that scene, it would fit perfectly with what he says - and obviously, he's creating something.

Then this: "Captain Hook: Nothing! The hold is crawling with Heartless. Let them keep an eye on the brats. "

Since Riku doesn't say anything about sending the Shadow Soras after Sora, and Hook doesn't mention it either, it stands to reason that, since they know that the Shadow Sora's are down there, that they are included as Heartless.

Then, we have this:
 * "It is confirmed by Tetsuya Nomura that this event triggered a side effect and created the Anti Form when Sora was given his new clothes and Drive Form abilities a year later. "

This isn't explicit evidence, but it puts a huge hole in the theory that AntiSora is something unrelated to Heartless. Glorious  CHAOS!  22:45, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
 * A quote (without a source, no less) which you cribbed off the "Shadow Form" article. That establishes absolutely nothing in relation to AntiSora/Shadow Sora. And, holy god, stop making plurals with apostrophes. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * "There is no difference between a “pure blood” Heartless, and the ones with the emblems, only the process of their births. But a heart does not appear from the pure blood Heartless. This is touched upon in Kingdom Hearts 1, and may be elaborated on in the future." Plackers 11:18, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * What is the difference between Anti and Shadow Sora (Both KH1)? - Endless   Oblivion

Anti sora is the sora shaped heartless Sora fights and Shadow sora is sora while he is a shadow heartless in hollow bastion -orpheus of the lyre
 * AntiSora is the boss enemy. Shadow Sora is the regular enemy you encounter on the way to the AntiSora fight. Plackers 10:45, 15 July 2009 (UTC)


 * "Unless you believe Sora, while sleeping, was literally shunted into another dimension with tall cylinders that have images of princesses on them."
 * This is how he gets to Traverse Town too, that's why it's germane. If you want to bring up that it's only an internal process, that's acceptable, that's fine, but it's stupid to claim that "it has no bearing on the KH universe", seeing as Riku gets to Castle Oblivion in a similar sequence, and there's an entire world made out of hearts, showing that what happens in them affects others.
 * Here's the Anti Form quote, and it actually implies that Riku's Dark Mode is pseudo-Heartless as well, meaning that all original enemies in KH are Heartless to some extent: "Concerning Sora’s Anti Form, you could think that the reason is related to his changing into a heartless once before. In fact, beyond Sora’s Nobody, it is natural to assume that Sora is influenced by the heartless. Riku’s Dark Mode is similar."
 * "Learn how to use apostrophes correctly, please. They indicate possession or contraction. Not plurals."
 * They are perfectly acceptable for use as plurals for non-standard words. How about you stop trying to get off point?
 * "And within the hold, there are, in no particular order, Pirates, Shadows, and Barrel Spiders. In much more ample numbers than the single Shadow Sora who appears in the room. Why you take this to mean an absolute reference to AntiSora/Shadow Sora is baffling. And there is only one Shadow Sora, as should be evident by the fact that it escapes every time you defeat it."
 * The Shadow Sora can be defeated, so you're wrong about that. And they can appear three at a time, so that too. As for "why I take it to be a relative reference" - because Hook does not refer to anything else, therefore the implication is that he is including the Shadow Sora in his reference to the Heartless.
 * "Xehanort's experiments. How exactly did Sora transform into a Shadow if Purebloods are only the darkness?"
 * Because the Keyblade of People's hearts explicitly "releases the Darkness within you", not "turns you into a Heartless".
 * Plus, you're quote from the interview plays straight into what I was saying, so...
 * "Zexion never said such. The entire point of that conversation was to show Riku as a creature of darkness, akin to a Heartless. ("And now you belong to the darkness. Look at what you are!") Again, you take metaphor literally."
 * ...the entire bloody game and the concepts of Heartless and Nobody rest on metaphor: Nobodies aren't literally corpses, Kingdom Hearts isn't a giant pulsing cardoid; yeah, it's kind of acceptable to take metaphor literally.
 * "And, Christ, "Dark Manifestation"? It's called the English language. People describe things by words. That does not make a proper noun or any meaning beyond what the words themselves mean."
 * If you're going to bitch about "things being made up", you shouldn't be trying to insert your speculatory names into the article.
 * "You have an annoying knack for this. As for your last question, Shadow Roxas. Lingering Sentiment. Hayner. The Data Replicas of Organization XIII. Hostile Program. Riku. Riku Replica. Xion. Vexen's Clone Sora (or is that a ZOMG PUREBLOOD HEARTLESS, too?). Crank Tower, I guess."
 * Crank Tower is part of Queen of Hearts, a Disney enemy, though Riku could count. But notice how all of these are not in KH1, anyway? My point was that, in that game, there is no non-Heartless/Disney/FF enemy. So, even with Riku as a pseudo-Heartless, virtually none. However, seeing the Organization can control the Heartless, according to Saix, the Clone Sora could very well be a Heartless, and Shadow Roxas is quite explicitly a Nobody in disguise, not a truly original enemy.
 * "Sigh. SHADOW, the literal absence of light on a surface due to an object blocking the light rays, is not the same thing as SHADOW, the figurative dark remnant or aspect of a being. Please learn to separate the literal from the figurative. AntiSora/Shadow Sora here concerns the LITERAL SHADOW of Sora, which he does not have in the sequence when Shadow Sora/AntiSora is in existence and gets back when AntiSora is defeated, in case you still completely fail to comprehend this fact I am trying to convey you."
 * How about, when we're discussing a work that doesn't take the metaphorical and literal and splice them together Frankenstein-style, I will. In the absence of such a discussion, no I think it's completely fair to take the name literally. And again - The same "SORA's SHADOW BECOMES HEARTLESS" sequence happens right there, in the beginning of the game, and each time we see a strong Pureblood Heartless, it is in response to someone's darkness - the DI Darkside for Riku, the Dark Thorn for the Beast, etc. You can try to write the intro off as "dreams", but that won't work, as dreams are shown to be quite a real thing in the series. Hell, in "Through the Looking Glass", Wonderland was written off as a dream, but we still went there, didn't we?
 * "My "main thrust" is that there is no evidence making this a Heartless. It has no journal entry. None of the Ultimanias refer to it as a Heartless. This is speculation you are passing off as fact. Speculation based on, uh, the presence of yellow eyes."
 * For having no journal entry - not any sort of evidence. Plenty of Nobodies, Heartless, etc. stay out of the journal for whatever reason.
 * For the Ultimania guides - I've not had a chance to read them. What do they refer to for Guardian, Bit Sniper, World of Chaos, and Ansem?
 * As for "no evidence" - seriously? You're trying denial at this point? Okay:


 * 1) For the journal, the AntiSora and Shadow Sora don't appear as anything else, so it's valid to assume they could be any of them from the journal alone.
 * 2) It appears as Sora's shadow, in the same manner as in the Awakening, which became a Heartless. For the related Shadow Roxas enemy, that became a Dusk, in a real enough world that others could enter, so the analogue is well supported.
 * 3) Pureblood Heartless, according to the mythology, are the manifested darkness that resides within a person's heart, and can thus coexist with the actual person - as displayed with Guardian, Dark Thorn, the Darksides, etc. There is no precedent in the series for "darkness" to physically manifest besides as a Heartless.
 * 4) AntiSora appears very similar to AntiForm, explained by Nomura to be a Heartless-like form of Sora. Plus, "Anti" being used to name both sets up a strong correlation, similar to the "Shadow" shared by Shadow, Gigant Shadow, Mega Shadow, Neo Shadow, and Next Shadow.
 * 5) The yellow eyes belong predominantly to the Heartless, with one exception, so it's a valid use.
 * 6) Hook mentions nothing beyond the Heartless being in the hold, so it's fair to assume that the Shadow Sora is included.

There are some obstacles to this, though: according to you Ultimania does not call it a Heartless (how exactly does it call other enemies Heartless, though?), and Riku mentions "other tricks" beyond controlling the Heartless (though turning things into Heartless would serve quite well as an "other trick"). While the boss is quite closely linked to the Peter Pan theme, it still stems from someone controlling Heartless, not a PP character, and most Heartless are themed by the world they appear in - for example, Dark Thorn, a beast-like rose-based Pureblood Heartless, that would serve as a perfect analogue to the AntiSora for Beast instead of Sora. Right now, the Ultimania guide looks like the only thing that could specifically prove it's not a Heartless, besides a quote from Nomura, who doesn't seem to have talked about AntiSora at all. How exactly does the Ultimania guide show that AntiSora is or isn't a Heartless, and how does it show the ones who are a Heartless that they are? Can you provide a few scans, please? Glorious  CHAOS!  18:11, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

Section break

 * This is how he gets to Traverse Town too, that's why it's germane.

Bwha? He gets to Traverse Town through a random dark corridor. Dive into the Heart is, again, an internal process and does not involve physical transportation.


 * seeing as Riku gets to Castle Oblivion in a similar sequence

Dark corridor. Read the Ansem Reports and please stop bringing up random shit.


 * They are perfectly acceptable for use as plurals for non-standard words.

No, they aren't. This, like much you believe, is imagined.


 * The Shadow Sora can be defeated, so you're wrong about that.

4:57. Shadow Sora only allows you to deplete half of his HP, and retreats into the floor. Please pay attention to the games you are playing next time.


 * Because the Keyblade of People's hearts explicitly "releases the Darkness within you", not "turns you into a Heartless".

So Kairi somehow restored Sora from simply his darkness. His actual heart is lost forever.

Do you honestly not realize your mind-numbingly literal reading of everything simply makes things more complicated and inconsistent?


 * Plus, you're quote from the interview plays straight into what I was saying, so...

No? His statement treats the absence of a heart when Purebloods are defeated as a strange thing, which shouldn't be if your explanation holds water. The two types are stated to be the same "other than process of birth". One being made of hearts and the other not is a pretty huge difference.


 * ...the entire bloody game and the concepts of Heartless and Nobody rest on metaphor: Nobodies aren't literally corpses, Kingdom Hearts isn't a giant pulsing cardoid; yeah, it's kind of acceptable to take metaphor literally.

"What I believe to be metaphor is literal, therefore all cases of metaphor are literal!" What? You are confusing metaphor with figurative things in the real world taken literally in the Kingdom Hearts universe. Metaphors that are literal are not metaphors.


 * If you're going to bitch about "things being made up", you shouldn't be trying to insert your speculatory names into the article.

...It's called a description, Jesus Fucking Christ. You know, like describing Sora as "a boy wearing clown shoes"? When people do that, they do not literally mean "Boy Wearing Clown Shoes" as an actual, special, term with additional meaning. Why the fuck am I explaining this basic concept of language to you?


 * But notice how all of these are not in KH1, anyway?

And?


 * So, even with Riku as a pseudo-Heartless, virtually none.

You're really milking that quote for all it's worth. Skewed to the darkness != Heartless.


 * However, seeing the Organization can control the Heartless, according to Saix, the Clone Sora could very well be a Heartless,

Despite being, I dunno, being an obvious reference to Vexen's manufacture of Replicas? And having no heart to be formed from?


 * and Shadow Roxas is quite explicitly a Nobody in disguise, not a truly original enemy.

Yes, which is why it disappears in a digital fade-out, is labeled as a "miscellaneous" enemy in guides, and is not mentioned again ever.


 * I think it's completely fair to take the name literally.

So you truly believe that the first Heartless were produced from the literal shadows of effectively dead people consigned to Hollow Bastion's basement? I should now just roll my eyes and stop this conversation with a dense brick wall, but I'm a sucker for punishment.


 * Plenty of Nobodies, Heartless, etc. stay out of the journal for whatever reason.

Name them. Beyond enemies that appear in the final battles. Enemy Gummi Ships don't count.


 * For the related Shadow Roxas enemy, that became a Dusk

No, it didn't. You defeat it, it disappears and is never mentioned again. Furthermore, it arose from a reflection, not Roxas's shadow. What a Dusk disguised itself as was Vivi.


 * Pureblood Heartless, according to the mythology, are the manifested darkness that resides within a person's heart,

Yes, using the heart as a vessel. Just like Emblems.


 * and can thus coexist with the actual person - as displayed with Guardian, Dark Thorn, the Darksides, etc. There is no precedent in the series for "darkness" to physically manifest besides as a Heartless.

Again, Guardian is not a being unto itself. There is nothing that says Shadow Stalker/Dark Thorn was produced from simple darkness.

"I believe the Heartless are taking hearts. They are born from those who've lost their hearts, and thrive on hearts seized from others. The hearts taken by the Heartless become Heartless themselves." —Ansem Report 4, made before Xehanort made Emblems.

Sora turned into a Shadow. The hearts that fell from Kingdom Hearts, when Ansem the Wise used his device on it, all turned into Shadows.

Once again, your literal misunderstanding of what the game is saying is making you wrong. All Heartless are the manifestation of the darkness in hearts, but they aren't independent of hearts.


 * Hook mentions nothing beyond the Heartless being in the hold, so it's fair to assume that the Shadow Sora is included.

...Or he doesn't care to mention a minor enemy. Or is more aware and has more experience with the Heartless and therefore has more faith that the Heartless will manage Sora. Or you're just looking too deep into a throwaway line and taking it absolutely literally, which you always seem to have an issue with. Should I remind you of the time on Wikipedia that you absolutely insisted that Lexaeus's weapon was "Centurion"?

As for Ultimania, a story note (one of very few mentions) refers to Anti/Shadow Sora in "リクが差し向けたソラの影と戦う". "Sora's shadow". No mention of Heartless. No connection to the Heartless is ever made in any official source, which is what I've been saying the entire time. Oh, and "Guardian" is not mentioned. Ever. The closest phrase I bothered to translate is "Ansem's Shield". Everything is simply "Ansem attacks" and the like, regardless if "Guardian" is actually doing it. Kingdom Hearts fans making up something whole cloth based on specious evidence? Wouldn't be the first time! Plackers 22:49, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Never mind, I reverted my individual replies to the above, because it's simply not worth it. If you really care to hear them, I can re-add them, but I doubt you will. At this point, I'm tired of dealing with your condescending, often off-topic, jackass behavior, and it's not like this discussion is going anywhere. The one thing you've provided that actually serves as evidence, instead of just condescension, straw-grasping, and dismissal of the actual game, would be the Ultimania: please provide a scan of it's coverage for AntiSora (and Shadow Sora, if it is treated separately), preferably the Bestiary section coverage, though if you know of other coverage, that would be useful too. Also, please provide scans of how the bestiary treats a normal Heartless, and a Disney boss, for comparison. Otherwise, the currently available evidence points toward it being a Heartless. Glorious  CHAOS!  03:58, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

Azul's Comments
Wow, this is a very long "argument". It's kinda hard to wrap my head around. I think I'll comment a bit. I have a feeling this discussion goes deeper than just arguing whether or not he's a heartless, but that's just my opinion.

The general appearance of heartless is a figure/being that has bright yellow eyes and is dark in color. The same characteristics of AntiSora. Also, like the Shadow heartless, it moves around the area by "swimming" around the floor. It's hard to identify this being, but I'm leaning on Heartless.

Sorry if I'm overlooking alot of things. I'll reply back once I've read the whole thing and have thought long and hard on what to say. My KH memory is a little foggy. -Azul (talk ・contribs) 01:33, 16 July 2009 (UTC)