Talk:Vanitas

Vanitas and the Unversed
The Unversed appear to be the creation of Vanitas, who is the creation of Master Xehanort (with Ventus' help). Vanitas, being made of all of the Darkness that was extracted from Ventus' Heart, is possibly the first Unversed. The Unversed, as you know, are considered the opposite of human life. In the KH Universe, humans are denizens of the Realm of Light. Vanitas, though extracted from a human, is pure Darkness and therefore cannot be a denizen of Light. Thus making him a human from the Realm of Darkness, which would overall make Vanitas a sort of 'anti-human', or the opposite of Human life. Because Vanitas is comprised only of Darkness, it is implied that he would have some control over it and could even influence the Darkness into consciousness and form as the Unversed.XYZ. 05:22, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Interesting theory, but could you at least sign it? Raven's wing 11:52, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Story
I'm wondering if we're allowed to actually start putting in the story information or do we have to wait for the English release for that? Lavaros

I kind of saw that with 358/2 Days- but at this point, the important parts should be coming soon? There's likely some one out there who got the ISO(I do not endorse this option >..>) or bought the game who will eventually give information and clear up some of the confusion regarding why Vanitas looks like Sora because all I've seen so far is guess work. Lavaros

That will take awhile, especially with all the people flooding the stream plays, I think some of the pages can start to be edited soon enough though, maybe not the story section, but Terra's, Aqua's and Ventus' Keyblades and Gameplay sections. Lavaros

Indeed, it really looks like Nomura decided to pull a Hideo Kojima on us. Lavaros

Vanitas's story section
So, can anyone link to the translations of the game, please? Since apparently the entire story has been fan-dubbed somewhere? Glorious  CHAOS!  13:57, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've marked the section with tags for citation. Unless links to reliable, first-hand translations can be provided, the material will be deleted. As it is, the section looks like it was probably written by someone who could not read the script, and was simply describing the scenes, which is what we all agreed we wouldn't do. Glorious  CHAOS!  19:37, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

Chronologically

 * The Platinum Match doesn't seem to be canon, since Sephiroth and Sora act as if they've never met in KH2.—Urutapu 22:19, January 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's no reason for the million empty lines. Anyway, the real problem is that, apparently, Vanitas requires a very specific deck to defeat. Or so says Nomura.—Urutapu 00:40, January 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's no reason for the million empty lines. Anyway Randomnessity, yeah, you set up techniques sort of like a deck.—Urutapu 00:45, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

The prize is nothing special and certainly not as cool as the one winged angel keyblade.Hirokey123 05:14, January 21, 2010 (UTC)

Just a question... *spoilers*
How the heck did all of that hair fit into Vanitas's helmet!?! Keyblade474 16:19, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

If this game had realistic physics, we shouldn't have been able to recognize Sora's head under the helmet. The helmet hair would have made him completely unrecognizable.

I also enjoyed Square's convenient "only showing his eyes" as his helmet is taken off. I kind of would have enjoyed seeing his hair just go POOF and appear... Yes, this entire post was completely relevant. 72.77.96.235 06:40, February 2, 2010 (UTC)

Connection With Riku

 * That's...pretty much it. Xehanort/the darkness just likes to recycle outfits.—Urutapu 04:51, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

And he looks like Sora because... ?
I breezed through this page and for some reason could not find a reason for his likeness to Sora. What's up wit that? Because he was born with his helmet on, I'd assume that he would look like Ventus. But I guess Ventus' Heart linking with Sora's could have effected Vanitas' appearance, but that's just me trying to understand it.. What is the game's explanation and why isn't it listed here?XYZ. 05:19, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

he doesn't born with his helmet but his head isn't showed and if you think well it is sora that looks like him, but i don't know why thy're so alike--Xabryn 21:56, March 3, 2010 (UTC)

You're kind of right. Initially, when Vanitas is first materializing, you do not see all of his head, but you can see his metallic jaw guard thing. However, by the end of his birth scene you do see that he is wearing the helmet.XYZ. 05:19, March 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * When we saw Sora, he already looked like a mini version of old Sora, and Sora's mom would have noticed if he suddenly changed faces. It also doesn't make sense that Vanitas looks nothing like Ventus. However, do we know what world Ventus is from? It could be possible that they are brothers, though. Glorious  CHAOS!  15:46, March 24, 2010 (UTC)

Even though it's Word Of God, it still has me skeptical since Sora wasn't even born when Vanitas was created. Ventus looked around KH1 Sora's age at the time. Sooo....yeeeeah.........why is Sora Jesus all of a sudden? Kaihedgie 21:38, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * True, but like I said, we have no idea what Vani's face looked like when he was born. Almost certainly he didn't look like Sora right off the bat. Since he was a fragment of Ven's heart, it's possible his face was damaged/featureless/a warped version of Ven's. I think it's safe to say his face was changed into its final appearance, though. Also, I don't understand your Jesus comment. --Neumannz 21:51, March 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually, if Ven was the same age as Sora in KH1 when Vanitas was made(14) then Sora would have been 3. This is of course assuming that Ventus is 15 during BBS. --Evnyofdeath 20:06, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Everyone's suddenly treating him like some kinda savior all of a sudden. D: Yes, I know he's connected, but he and Aqua never even met and Ansem doesn't remember and Terra didn't give two craps about him. So why? D: Kaihedgie 21:54, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

Yeeeah, someone already beat you to it. However, it didn't answer my question one bit XD Kaihedgie 22:15, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

If I remember right, XH made contact with Riku on Destiny Islands. As for battle stances, it doesn't matter that others don't share the same stance (except Roxas, Xion, and Sora, but they don't count), it doesn't make it impossible for 2 unrelated people to have the same stance. The fact is, Vani was designed to have parallels with Riku, but none of the similarities can't be explained as a coincidence. (Does he have the same fighting style even?) I honestly don't know if there's an actual reason for the bodysuit being similar, but it's not a huge deal. --Neumannz 23:57, March 25, 2010 (UTC)

I like how people haven't attempted to answer my first question regardin' Vanitas. Kaihedgie 00:44, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * About Sora being Jesus? I recommend taking the question somewhere else, like a forum page. This is supposed to be a page to discuss info for Vani's article, and your question seems to be too subjective for Sora's article talk page. --Neumannz 00:50, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Wait, you had a question about Vanitas? Where? What was it? --Neumannz 00:53, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

'Even though it's Word Of God, it still has me skeptical since Sora wasn't even born when Vanitas was created. Ventus looked around KH1 Sora's age at the time. So how?' Kaihedgie 01:16, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Must I repeat myself? Must pay closer attention. Ventus' heart wasn't repaired until he was taken to Destiny Islands. He was still just a kid at the time. x: Kaihedgie 01:36, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * What is the question? Why doesn't Vanitas look like young Sora? "How" what? Say the question clearly and explicitly if you want an answer. --Neumannz 01:40, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

The question is: How could Sora have possibly had a coherent influence on Ventus' heart if he was not even born? The keyword 'How'? Why I ask how? Ventus was around KH1 Sora's age when Vanitas was created and when he was placed on Destiny Islands by Master Xehanort which was where he was 'repaired'. That is my question. I'm pretty sure I was very clear the first time. Kaihedgie 02:07, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * You were not. You never said the question straight out. Sora didn't have an influence before he was born. He was born the night MX brought Ven to the islands, if I remember correctly what happened during Ven's Awakening. Sora's newly born heart connected with Ven's broken heart to heal it. That was when he started influencing Ven's heart. Does that make sense? --Neumannz 02:15, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

Not. One. Bit. Kaihedgie 02:29, March 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, in that case I gotta say, live with it. --Neumannz 02:30, March 26, 2010 (UTC)

And after reviewing Vanitas' birth scene, I can say for sure that he has his helmet on.XYZ. 05:03, April 1, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry if this is redundant, but the reason Vanitas looks like Sora is because after the Darkness was extraced from Ven's Heart, the voice/Heart that connected to it was Sora's. Even though Vanitas was a seperate being, he was still dependant on Ven (I assume this because Ven was dependant of Vanitas, for after Vanitas was destroyed, Ven's Heart faded away), and because of Vens connection to Sora, Vanitas took on an altered version of Sora's teenage appearance. At least, this is what I've drawn from several others. --Evnyofdeath 20:04, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Vanitas must like to hear himself talk..
After looking through the Birth by Sleep section of the page I noticed that Vanitas 'reveals' his birth from Ventus' heart twice, both times to Ventus. The first time this is mentioned is in the 5th paragraph. This is when Ventis and Vanitas meet on Destiny Island. I've seen the scene and agree that Vanitas definitely spills the beans here. But then in the 7th paragraph it says that after Vanitas reveals his face he tells Ventus that he is the Darkness of Ven's heart. Did Ventus not get the idea the first time? I believe that whoever added that meant to state that this is where Vanitas takes credit for the Unversed.XYZ. 06:27, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Wait what?
"Master Xehanort then proceeded to use his Keyblade to unlock Ventus's heart, resulting in Vanitas's formation. The dark enigma, who appeared from an orb of dark energy, would be the source of the Unversed as well as a key component in Master Xehanort's plans." Does this mean Vanitas is master of the Unversed?Innosense 21:25, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Yes.-- Ninja Sheik  21:26, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Ultimania
The Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep Ultimania does not classify Vanitas as an Unversed. He is classified as a non-Unversed enemy, as is his sentiment, Terra, Zack, and Master Xehanort, among others. I do not think that Vanitas is an Unversed for several reasons; for example, Vanitas does not bear the Unversed logo, as all Unversed do. In addition, Vanitas was not created as a product of Vanitas's abilities, as the Unversed were, but instead was created from being seperated from Ventus, which caused the Unversed to begin appearing. Vanitas's status as an Unversed or non-Unversed needs to be decided on; if there is any reasoning as to why you think Vanitas is an Unversed, please leave it here so that it may be brought into conversation. By doing this, we will be able to make a sourced and informed decision on whether this article belongs in the "Unversed" category or not. -- 06:47, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Vanitas can still technically be considered an Unversed. The Flood don't have the crest, but they're still called as such. In addition, Vanitas is the physical manifestation of another person's primal force and embodies everything associated with that force, even moreso than Xehanort and his incarnations ever did. It's safe to say he is the king Unversed. Without him, they wouldn't exist, so when he went, so did they. Like I said in the previous talk page, I'm not sure the Ultimania is entirely correct. Kaihedgie 07:01, April 9, 2010 (UTC)

Vanitas isn't a Unversed, i knew that since the beginning but i agree with Kaihedgie, he is the king Unversed so he can be considered one even if the ultimania says it isn't

Reorganization
This article is a mess. Images are everywhere. Sections are written poorly or with very choppy sentences or bad grammar. If anyone would like to help me as I expand/revise the article, please message me. I am going to leave the clean-up template now. - EternalNothingnessXIII 19:12, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Sora's age when Vanitas was created
I got sick of reading that "Sora wasn't even born when Vanitas was created, because Ventus was KH1 Sora's age" If Ventus was KH1 Sora's age when Vanitas was created, that would mean Sora was 3 when Vanitas was created. This is of course assuming that Ventus is 15 during BBS. --Evnyofdeath 20:21, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sign your posts.
 * Ven's Awakening indicates that Sora had just been born when M. Xehanort brought Ven to Destiny Islands. Assuming that happened a short time after Vani was created, Sora was most likely born after that, or not long before. (Anyway, that doesn't matter, since Sora definitely didn't connect with Ven until after Vani was created.)
 * Also, where does it indicate how old Ventus is? --Neumannz 20:18, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I hadn't heard that before. But wouldn't that mean Ven would be older? He looks the same age as Roxas was, meaning he would be around 15 during BBS, and because BBS takes place around 10 years before KH1, that would mean Sora would be 5, and since people are saying that Ven was 14(Sora's KH1 age) when Vanitas was created that would mean Sora would be around 4....this is so confusing...... --Evnyofdeath 20:24, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * About 4 years past between Vani's creation and the main BBS storyline. Ven was CLEARLY younger when Vani was created. I'd say Ven was around 14 or 15 during the main storyline. Sora is 4. That's about all. --Neumannz 20:32, April 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks for clearing that up for me. --Evnyofdeath 20:36, April 26, 2010 (UTC)

Plan B
I just saw a subbed version of what happen in aqua story after she fought Vanitas in Radiant Garden, he says that she is strong and that she would be his plan B then after leaving she tells her to become stronger. So i was thinking for create the X-Blade it is only necessary a heart of pure light(which aqua have) and a heart of pure darkness(as we know vanitas, so I was thinking maybe Aqua would be his plan B for create the X-Blade for the case of Ventus's heart keep weak. I know it look stupid but it kinda make sense so... what you guys think?--Xabryn 00:52, April 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * I believe Nomura confirmed that Vanitas was indeed talking about using Aqua as a "spare" incase it didn't work with Ventus in an interview somewhere (check KHInsider, it should be a fairly recent link). And yup, it only has to be a heart of pure darkness and a heart of pure light to make the X-Blade. Doesn't matter who they're from. EDIT: Here's the link: -- Lapis of the Night  01:04, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * When I clicked that link, it didn't take me anywhere, I just got a 'this site does not exist' thing --Evnyofdeath 05:46, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Who would say that I say right for once, thanks Lapis--Xabryn 01:42, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

@Envyofdeath: Weird, it works when I click on it. Check the second archive on KHInsider's main page, and look for the headline about "Plot mysteries" if it still doesn't work.-- Lapis of the Night  06:00, April 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright, thanks. My computer just has this weird habit if I click a link that doesn't lead to a site, I wind up at this site called desktop smily search........ --Evnyofdeath 06:03, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

That article really helped me explain many of the games plot points. Now I know why Aqua hesitated when she saw Sora. Naruto195 19:51, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Vanitas Thoughts
/Users/period1/Desktop/ucard.png Hey! For all who don't know me, I am DialgaMan. I have a question. Does anyone know why Vanitas feels the need to make Ven stronger?

To create the X-Blade and become one again Kaihedgie 14:32, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

You see, to create the X-blade you need two people with equal strength and hearts of pure light (Ventus) and darkness (Vanitas) but Ven used to be weaker than Vanitas so he needed to make him stronger so when they fight the X-blade would be created. Get it?--No.i 16:09, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

A Pretty Useless Trivia
You know when Vanitas was defeated for the time by Aqua, his belt vanished but the shadow thingy of the belt is still there. Yeah it's a pretty dumb trivia.— Wing Blade

Hayley Joe Osment for Vanitas
Obviously he hasn't been confirmed as a voice actor but if he is in the game does anyone believe he will voice Vanitas. Heck he made Sora sound a bit intimidating in Re Chain of memories so he should definetly be able to do the evil voice and laugh thing. --Nathbud789 00:58, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Is Vanitas really just a pawn?
Thanks Kaihedge and No.i for answering my question earlier. Now I have another. Why is Vanitas loyal to Master Xehanort? Surely a being of darkness such as Vanitas must have its own plans for victory? If not, does this mean that Vanitas was purposefully created by Master Xehanort this way so vanitas would be a pawn and no more? 169.139.1.20 15:24, May 27, 2010 (UTC)DialgaMan, the master of Time

Trivia or Reference?
The reason for Vanitas's naming is formatted in a way that could actually improve formatting of the article if the explanation beneath the trivia fact was changed to a note/reference. - Eternal  Nothingness  XIII  22:46, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Unversed?
Vanitas isn't an Unversed and he isn't a Heartless either. His a human with a heart of pure darkness and is also made from complete darkness - JTD95 13:56, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Wrong. Vanitas does not have a heart. He was simply born from all of the darkness harbored in Ventus' heart, but that doesn't mean that he himself has one. We consider him an Unversed because his very origin, essence and nature says so, not to mention he spawned them. Kaihedgie 15:12, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

And yet, Vanitas did not release a heart upon his demise and while Ventus did. Yes the X-Blade is formed from hearts of light and dark. MX seems to have bypassed this by using the darkness of the heart to counteract with Ventus' now truly-pure light. heart You seem to have forgotten that the Unversed disappeared with Vanitas when he was vanquished. Vanitas and the Unversed are one in the same, and thus, in a previous section we called him the 'king' or 'first' Unversed Kaihedgie 16:39, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

1: I saw no heart release when he died 2: They are considered "the opposite of human life" and grow from the negative emotions produced when Vanitas was distilled from Ventus. Negative emotions=darkness. Kaihedgie 17:13, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Negative emotions have always resulted in darkness, we've seen it Riku, Master Xehanort and Terra, three very noble and strong people. Vanitas is literally darkness incarnate, exhibiting all of the traits associated with darkness users and is in ways, a plague. Kaihedgie 17:28, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Vanitas isn't a Unversed he is not made of negative emotions, he is not a heartless but it is similar to one, he have the dark half of Ventus's heart and negative emotions create darkness but they're not darkness, besides if we're going to cosidere Vanitas something a heartless is the best choice, he is created in a similar way to Sora's heartless, have a body and a heart made fully of darkness and the yellow eyes that are usually connected to darkness but are mainly in heartless (P.S.:I'm not saying that we should just saying that it would make more sense that putting that it is an Uversed)--Xabryn 23:30, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

The dude IS made of negative emotions. He's shown to be more haughty, rude and downright cruel than any of the incarnations of Xehanort. Master Xehanort used to be a good guy and during a couple of flashbacks, we do see some of his good-sided nature. Xemnas still longed for a heart and some of Terra influenced him to a degree. He's pure evil and doesn't even have any remorse for the things he's done. This is the same boy who wouldn't even hesitate to turn on his own master, and given the circumstances, if Vanitas and Master Xehanort had succeeded in defeating Terra, Ven and Aqua, Vanitas would have undoubtedly turned on his master and continue to spread his darkness across the universe.

If Vanitas was a Heartless, then Xehanort's Heartless would have been able to spawn Unversed as well. The circumstances between the births of Ansem and Vanitas were different. Xehanort went through the same split transformation any other Organization member went through: he lost his heart to the darkness and was given form, becoming a Heartless while his body lingered on to become a Nobody. Vanitas was created from the darkness residing in Ventus. Mind you Ventus was able to retain his heart and didn't vanish as a result, but the extraction undoubtedly messed his sh*t up since his heart experienced a sudden inbalance now that he no longer had darkness so calling him a Heartless is far off. Kaihedgie 23:48, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that you get what I'm trying to say, he isn't a heartless but is more similar to the heartless than to the Unversed, so it would make more sense to say in the articles that he is a heartless and he is made of Ventus's heart dark side not of negative emotions, he feels because he have a heart but he only have negative feeling because his heart don't have any light and i guess, I'm not saying that it is, that even heartless have a light that never goes out, just like every heart have a dark part,Ventus and the 7 pincess are exception just like Vanitas is to the other part which i think that caused the Unversed to appear, but they are confusing, what I know is that Vanitas isn't a Unversed he isn't a heartless and he is not made of negative emotions--Xabryn 00:06, June 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe Ventus just wasn't the greatest guy before the Neoshadows jumped him? I mean, Sora had enough darkness in him to become a Shadow when his heart was taken, instead of going catatonic like Kairi, while Ventus was about to full-on die. Especially with a teacher like Xehanort, it's possible that Xehanort encouraged the darkness to grow in Ventus, just like he later did with Terra, but Ventus didn't have enough remaining light for it to survive on its own. Glorious  CHAOS!  02:20, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Ventus seemed like a pretty sweet kid and Master Xehanort was a pretty good fellow still. Getting Ventus to use the darkness as a weapon was about as likely as Vanitas preaching about Light. It's pretty much an established fact that everyone is born with both light and darkness in their hearts, no matter how good-natured they are. Kairi is the exception because she is a Princess of Heart; no darkness. Kaihedgie 03:10, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

The cutscenes don't suggest anything and I can trust the Ultimania as about as far as I can throw it. We consider him an Unversed because, as I've said before his very nature and origin heavily implies he is so and when he died, they went with him. Kaihedgie 21:27, June 2, 2010 (UTC)

Dark Suit
It is an interesting theory and would explain things. Unfortunately, we don't really see any connecting of Vanitas' and Master Xehanort's hearts. We've never seen Vanitas actually having anything that could pass for a heart, much less releasing one upon his death. My theory is that the dark suit is a conscious fashioning of Master Xehanort. I don't think the suit has anything to do with the heart since the Riku Replica supposedly doesn't have a one. Kaihedgie 01:23, June 2, 2010 (UTC)