Forum:Ventus Mindscrew

If Vanitas is an Unversed, does that make Ventus one as well? We're never told precisely what makes an Unversed an Unversed. Conceivably, Ventus could draw light out of people, & then there'd be monsters made of positive emotions. Indeed, the very fact that I can ask this question inclines me to say, "Yes," as we are "not well versed in [Ventus's] existence."Neo Bahamut 08:17, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Ventus = Somebody but with a heart of pure light Vanitas = Somebody but with a heart of pure darkness Vanitas' Remnant = Unversed because he's made up of Vanitas' thoughts and feelings. -11:34, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Unversed is monsters created from negative emotions. And Vanitas is not an Unversed, he's the very embodiment of Ventus's darkness.

"What else is darkness but hate & rage?" Darkness is negative emotions. Therefore, saying Vanitas is a being made of the darkness in Ventus's heart but is not an Unversed is contradictory. The important question is, what's the being of light & positive emotions? Is it also an Unversed?Neo Bahamut 11:57, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

I think Darkness and Light is more of an element in people's hearts. No, Unversed is clearly stated as beings made from negative emotions. Almost like the Heartless who are born from the darkness inside people's hearts.
 * Aqua is wrong on a lot of things in that game. Earlier games, like CoM, show that darkness isn't necessarily bad, just like light not being necessarily good.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  12:36, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

And it was indicated as early on as KH1 that darkness was tied to negative emotions, so I don't really see why this is such a problem now. The Unversed even turn into pure darkness on several occasions. I don't think it can get much clearer than that. But even if we assume that a being of light & positive emotions can't be an Unversed, that doesn't answer the question of what it is.Neo Bahamut 12:41, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

I still think Unversed are beings made out of darkness. If they're made out of light, why would they attack people? ...Then again Bulky Vendor didn't attack Sora and co. I guess it's true what Kryten mentioned earlier
 * An Unversed is just one emotion, given shape. It is not necessarily violent, either, it just carries out its emotion, without thinking or changing. The heart contains and controls emotions, but it is much more than just emotions. Emblem Heartless are hearts lost to darkness that are given shape by that darkness, while Nobodies are bodies and souls lost to nothingness that are given animation by that nothingness. Basically, an Unversed is like the meanest fragment of a Pureblood Heartless (though this is a bad analogy, since hearts are more than just a tangle of emotions).
 * Vanitas and Ventus can think, have multiple emotions, and Ventus at least is a whole being, since he has heart, body, and soul. The process that created Vanitas, however, could be most closely related to that of an Emblem Heartless, since he was a heart lost in darkness that was given a body of darkness, and he has a pseudo-emblem on him to match. (Also, this reminds me, Radiant Garden should have had the Heartless Emblem on it, since it supposedly started off as their royal crest). The Lingering Sentiment is basically a Nobody, though it uses the Keyblade Armor as its body, rather than an organic body. The Vanitas Remnant might be something like either a Nobody (if it's Vanitas's soul in his suit), an Unversed (if it's a single bit of emotion), a Pureblood Heartless (if it's remnants of his darkness, and it fits his color scheme, but it requires his heart to still be out there), or an Emblem Heartless (if it's his entire heart without the darkness-made body, which would make the most sense, since it shouldn't be possible to destroy a heart in this series). That's about as good as we've got right now, though.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  13:40, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't the Emblem just Xehanort's own symbol, made after the Radiant Garden Crest (which seems to be the Kingdom Hearts heart)? I'd say Vanitas's Remnant is probably about the same kind of thing that the Lingering Sentiment is, which...honestly seems to be almost like an Unversed itself.Neo Bahamut 13:47, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, Nomura hints pretty hard that the Lingering Sentiment is a Nobody, and it has more than one emotion, so it can't be an Unversed.
 * The Heartless Emblem, in KH1, is used as the crest of Hollow Bastion (with there even being a room called the "Great Crest" (which is a giant facade of the castle built in the shape of the emblem), and having to find the jeweled portions of the crest to open a door). There's not really been any further backstory to it, and it's a pretty typical-looking royal crest, so there's no reason it couldn't have appeared in BbS as part of the castle or the guard's uniforms. The Nobody Emblem is designed by Xehanort, based on the Keyblade wielder Mark of Mastery emblem, which might be what you're thinking of.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  13:52, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

...wait, Nobody? I thought Lingering Sentiment is Terra's armor? I mean, his body is still there and all. I think Xemnas is Terra's Nobody. since shen Xehanort turns into a Heartless, the empty shell that's left is terra's body.

With regards to the Lingering Sentiment, I was thinking about that "the only thing I have to offer is my hatred for Xehanort" thing. I suppose it could be some form of Nobody, but I don't know. And no, I was referring to the Heartless Emblem. Some pretty heavy retconning took place between KH1 & KH2. It's possible that the story of the emblem's origin changed slightly, as well. I mean, another whole castle sprouted up. Anything's possible. Also, is there anything that necessarily says that Unversed have to have 1 & only 1 emotion?Neo Bahamut 14:07, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, Nomura. Nomura said that they manifest an emotion; the Flood are "irritation".
 * The Heartless Emblem is built into Ansem the Wise's Hollow Bastion; the one with the library, and chapel, etc. The Villain's Vale is a separate set of meager towers that Maleficent built when she attacked Radiant Garden.
 * The Lingering Sentiment has Terra's whole mind, and a sort of body. It is not a true Nobody, but it is not an Unversed, a Heartless, or a whole being. Nomura hints at this very hard in the Ultimania interview, when he is asked whether the Lingering Sentiment is a Nobody, and he says something like, "Well, it's not a Heartless."
 * Xemnas is Terra-Xehanort's Nobody, not Terra's. They have three hearts, one body, and at least two minds to partition out - Terra's mind goes into the armor and becomes the Lingering Sentiment, Xehanort's heart goes into Ansem SoD, and Terra's body and Xehanort's mind go into Xemnas. It's likely that Terra and Eraqus's hearts go into Ansem SoD and later pass onto Riku, explaining his Synch Blade, though one of them might have stayed behind with Xemnas instead, to explain his odd behavior in the Chamber of Repose (probably Terra's in that case, especially since Eraqus's heart is fairly dormant, while Terra's is actively fighting Xehanort's).(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  14:17, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

"It's not a heartless" doesn't scream "it's a nobody" to me. In fact, it seems more likely that he was hinting that it was something yet to be explained. Also, I found the quote about the Unversed. "...the Unversed behave according to Vanitas's will, and emotionally. For example, the Flood portray feelings of irritation." So, yeah. He doesn't say that it's a strict 1:1 ratio between emotions & Unversed. And the problem about that explanation of the castle is that the castle in KH1 looks nothing like the castle in KH2.Neo Bahamut 14:30, November 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...okay, let's do this again.


 * 1) Lingering Sentiment canonically has Terra's full mind.
 * 2) Nomura is point-blank asked whether it is a Nobody, and instead of denying it, says "it's not a Heartless". No, it's not a true Nobody, but neither are Roxas, Namine, or Xion, and Nomura gave similar answers for them.
 * 3) It's a bit harder to understand, but the "according to" there is almost certainly translated from a verb which does give a 1:1 ratio. The line would probably be better translated as "The Unversed act at Vanitas's will, and behave according to their emotion," though I'd have to see the original line to know for sure. Besides, the followup sentence makes it pretty clear he does mean a 1:1 ratio.
 * 4) We see different sides of the castle in KH1 and KH2. In KH1 we see the side facing the outer wastes; in KH2 and BbS we see the side facing the town. It's still canonically the same castle, especially because it's the one with Ansem's library that Kairi and her grandmother are seen in.(ಠ_ೃ)﻿ Bully!  15:00, November 1, 2010 (UTC)

Wait, if it had Terra's mind, how did it not recognize Sora?Neo Bahamut 02:30, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

What's there to recognize? terra only saw sora once for about 5 minutes on Destiny islands, and even then, his attention was on Riku, not sora, not to mention that was 10 years ago. Sora kinda grew a bit since the last time Terra saw him.-- 02:54, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

I might concede to that logic if this wasn't the same series where Riku can somehow tell that someone from another world needs to enter Sora's heart. At age 10. With no other information than that Sora had a stray tear. Now. Tell me you didn't recognize the kid as Sora when you first saw him. He looks almost exactly the same. He even has the same hair style. Hard to forget seeing Goku IRL. But, really, my biggest hang-up isn't so much that he couldn't tell exactly who the kid was, but who he WASN'T. Mistaking Sora for Xehanort? Really?Neo Bahamut 03:13, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

actually Riku was 5, but good point, as for Terra again, 5 minutes, one time, 10 years ago, as a child, wasn't really paying attention to him. We recognized him because we know sora, we played 3 full games as Sora. we recognize him as an important person. of course we'd recognize him. terra did none of these with sora. now as for LS, he's Terra's mind in a suit of armor. do you have any idea what 10 years, all alone, doing absolutely nothing but brood and rage, will do to a human mind? I don't think it's that hard to imagine him being just a bit delusional, do you? if anything, it's amazing that the dilusion broke at all-- 03:22, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

It's not that you make a bad point, it's just that Riku suddenly being the Zen Master is constantly in the back of my head undermining it. Also, if Riku was 5, Sora was like 4. He's the oldest of the trio.Neo Bahamut 03:55, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

That's the thing, he was 4. Birth by Sleep takes place 10 years before KH1, and if sora was 14 in KH1 and if Riku was 15, well i'm pretty sure you can do the math. as for Riku being a Zen Master, all i can say is that just because Riku has kickass perception doesn't mean that everyone else in the Kingdom Hearts Universe does too, and again, it is quite possible that LS was a little crazy when Sora first ncountered him-- 04:02, November 9, 2010 (UTC)

That's even worse. But my thing is that it's hard to recognize any sensible-sounding argument on a character's mental state after that happens. It's like...if a 4 year old can know something like that, all of the rules suddenly fly out of the window. Ansem the Wise spends years of research on crap like this & I bet he doesn't know it's possible.Neo Bahamut 05:37, November 9, 2010 (UTC)