Talk:No Name

who?
who keeps on deleting the picture of xehanorts keyblade i put on there? there is nothing wrong with the picture!
 * A few important things:
 * 1) It's me, and you'd know that if you read the page history.
 * 2) You keep sticking that picture in the middle of a heading, which is downright stupid.
 * 3) Your picture appears to be unofficial artwork, which has no place on the page.
 * 4) Sign your posts with ~
 * --Neumannz 04:36, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Riku's Second Keyblade
As we know Sora second keyblade is Ventus's keyblade so as riku have Xehanort's heart inside him i think that it's possible that Riku's second keyblade is MX changed into Destiny Place--Xabryn 01:09, April 20, 2010 (UTC)

Page Title

 * So name it "Xehanort's Keyblade", then? Like with Eraqus? Glorious  CHAOS!  20:11, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure how we should handle this... while that would be the most logical thing to do, we have to remember we're talking about two different characters owning the same thing. Would it kill Nomura to name this thing? - EternalNothingnessXIII 20:14, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Keys really get names unless they can be equipped. Until it can be (hint to any hackers), it's offical name is "Master Xehnaort's Keyblade." I'd assume that Nomura HAS a name for it, but it's a name for the staff to identify it by. I personally like the name of "Demon's Gaze" for it due to the eyes, and the fact that it is very demonic looking. But that's just My name for it. Hyperwre_2.0 20:33, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

Unlocking and Locking Hearts
Do you think that we should shift the information that the keyblade can unlock and unlock hearts to the Keyblade page instead of only mentioning it on this page? After all, Xehanort Report IX seems to tell us that ALL keyblades have the heart unlocking ability, instead of only just Master Xehanort's Keyblade.Zaqaree 17:44, January 7, 2011 (UTC)Zaqaree


 * ...Where does it say his Keyblade is the only one that can unlock Hearts? 18:08, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Master did it?
Seriously, I asked for the actual quotes you believe say this before. If you're right, that's great, but people have been arguing back and forth over this across the wiki, and there needs to be a damn citation before this continues any further. 23:57, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

Here's what the game shows: <><><> The Heart That Fought Back <><><>

(Aqua weakens Xehanort. An aura of light surrounds Xehanort.)

Xehanort: Stop fighting back!

(Xehanort becomes unable to move.)

Aqua: Terra, I know you're in there!

(Xehanort becomes able to move a little.)

Xehanort: This'll teach you. Get out of my heart!

(Xehanort turns his Keyblade on himself.)

Aqua: Terra!

(Xehanort's Keyblade falls to the ground and vanishes. His shadowy other appears and vanishes as well, only it creates a dark portal beneath him. Xehanort falls into the portal as Aqua rushes to reach him. Unable to get there in time, she dives into the portal which then has a light shine from it.)

So, yeah, the name of the scene, all narrative convention ever, and the fact that turning the Keyblade on the heart caused Master Xehanort's Keyblade to disappear and his memories to be erased (something that Terra gloats about later) strongly, almost painfully suggest that Terra was responsible. If it is Xehanort, then he's an imbecile, because he sacrificed his Keyblade, his Guardian, and nearly his existence just because Terra was making him fight at only 90% efficiency. 23:59, January 13, 2011 (UTC)

Can you also provide the Trinity Archives version of what happened in this scene? 00:14, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, so I was wrong, and Xehanort is an imbecile:

In a desparate move to rid himself of Terra once and for all, Xehanort turned his own Keyblade on himself, and began to sink into the pool of darkness that spilled forth.

My apologies, English. 01:03, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * It is rather pathetically stupid, but it does fit in with the scene. -- 01:06, January 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * But Terra regaining control of his body and stabbing himself to seal away their memories was definitely the better scenario, I think. It would have made more sense. But then again, Master Xehanort did say that possessing Terra was just one of many roads he chose to take, so maybe he knew that somehow, he would get his memories back (I think Xehanort has returned with his memories). EnglishJoker 20:32, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

Suite
Why is this linked to Game:No Heart? 16:52, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Because the Keyblade needs to be attacked in the battle with No Heart to disable a barrier. 17:04, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that's too fine a point to merit it being attached to No Heart's suite. A mention in the article seems apt to me. 17:26, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, the Frozen Pride and Book of Retribution are part of Vexen and Zexion's battles in KH2FM and they don't have a suite either, so I say go ahead. 17:30, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

Master of Masters
Without actually performing this yet, since details are still unclear -- assuming that the scene is what it appears to be, and that the Keyblade is being wielded by the MoM, do we rename this page to "Master of Masters' Keyblade", or do we follow the precedent set with "Terra's Mark", where we use the name from the Ultimania even if it is chronologically misleading?

Also, we will need to rewrite the lead to clarify the chronological order -- as of this scene (at least as it appears), this is MoM's Keyblade first and foremost, and it was definitively passed down to Xehanort. 14:02, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, it's apparently be more like "Luxu's Keyblade" now. And I don't know about the admins. but personally think it's unwise to use names that are misleading in any way, even if it did come from Ultimania. I don't think their information is 100% accurate. It's just like how I feel about the fact that this site dubs this animal as a horned lion just because Ultimania says it, when upon closer inspection it's obviously a goat or ram. Why use information that is clearly misleading? So yes, I personally think this page should be renamed. Blackchaos27 (talk) 05:04, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The information isn't misleading though, it is still Master Xehanort's Keyblade and we don't even know if it's really Luxu's Keyblade or if it really belongs to the MoM, because it's seen for like one second and not acknowledged at all. Changing the name now could lead to misinformation and we all know hard hard it is to purge afterwards.
 * As for the Ultimania: Nobody said that everything is 100% accurate in there, because it clearly isn't. It's still the only secondary canon source we have before we hit fan speculation territory, so using terms coined by it is a save bet. The artwork of Young Xehanort's Keyblade is directly taken from Square Enix, the Ultimania team didn't change the design notes on it, everything else is up for interpretation. -- 07:55, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It's called a horned lion in the designer's design notes for the Keyblade. Meaning that is literally 100% what they intend for it to be. And if you look at the image of how it animates, it clearly has a leonid, if gaunt, face -- goats are different looking. 12:30, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I think there's not enough information to say it's the default form of Luxu's Keyblade. I feel we should change the lead back to default form of Xehanort's Keyblade, or just say "a Keyblade" or something. 17:24, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It's the same language we're using for the other Foreteller Keyblades. Are you proposing we change it for all of them? 21:02, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * No, just this one. It's like Shard said, we don't even know if it's really Luxu's Keyblade. 21:22, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

Ram, not Lion
The Keyblade is the Keyblade of Lust. Each Sin has more than one animal, Lust has two specifically. One is indeed, the Scorpion. The other however, is the Goat. The Keyblade animal is a Ram, which is a form of Goat. Hence it is aligned with Luxu and therefore, not the MoM's Keyblade - Blaid
 * These are not ram horns though, these are much closer but still, please google it yourself. Why does nobody believe the official design notes of Square Enix on this matter? -- 22:04, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Look buddy, in this picture here, it clearly has fangs. Goats do NOT have fangs. And here, it's clearly the same visage as in the previous image. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 22:10, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * In the former, it is a different Keychain, therefore its shape has changed and does not apply otherwise every Keychain of the Kingdom Key would have similar traits as well. In the latter, there are no fangs on there. And for the record, Nomura and Square have lied on facts before. - Blaid
 * The animals of Lust is either a Scorpion or a Goat, here... Goat Horns. Rams are Male, but Lust is said to be the only "female" Sin! - here - Blaid
 * There is also something in Demonology of a Demon Goat-Lion, Asmodeus, the Demon of Lust. - here- Blaid
 * Just put a bracket on either side of the image you want to link to like I did. Young Xehanort's Keyblade is a fusion of the No Name and Master Xehanort's Keyblade. Yes, it only has fangs in this version, but the point is that the head was adapted from MX's Keyblade, therefore through logic and reason, it can be dudeced that the two, while different, are indeed the same. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 22:43, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree with you. They are the same Keyblade, but they fundamentally change with the Keychain. Even Nomura said that the Keyblade Young Xehanort wielded was a different Keychain to the same Keyblade. Keychains are, fundamentally, are just the Keyblade given a different appearance. I.e. - this compared to this. Finally, in context to the Rams Horns thing, where you compared End of Pain's blades to being like Ram Horns. Well... MX's Keyblade has similar blade features. - Blaid
 * I'm well aware of the prospect of Keychains, make no mistake. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 23:26, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What I mean, in prospect is that it is a Goat. It is not a Lion, it could never be a lion, a Goat has teeth while not fangs while a Lion has never and will never have Horns. All the Foretellers Keyblades are based off real or mythical creatures, a unicorn yes, a horned lion... no. The Keyblade and its Keychains all have a Demonic goat appearance, this is because Nomura went further into Demonology for this Keyblade as The Prince of Hell and Fallen Angel that governs the Sin of Lust is Asmodeus, who has the face of a Goat, see the similarities from one version of him here? Additionally, in most the interview I had heard of and the theory videos I have watched, MX's Keyblade has been often called the "Old Goat Keyblade". An here is a bit of irony, the only hair on Master Xehanort's face is a "billy goat beard", is that a coincidence? I leave it for you to decide. - Blaid
 * It's a lion because the 3D Ultimania says so. Also, this is a fantasy universe, animals can have whatever features they want regardless of fidelity to reality.  Ultima Spark   (talk)  Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png 20:33, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * 3D Ultimania is suddenly the source of all canon Kingdom Hearts knowledge now? You show me an image from a fan site, and expect me to believe a fan did not falsify or mess up the translation? In default it does not look like a lion, only when used in context of YX's Keyblade does it act in the form of a lion. I suppose the entire conversation could be debatable. Perhaps the MoM and Luxu identities have fused together, so their Keyblade traits have combined? Maybe the cameo appearance of "End of Pain", is Luxu's true Keyblade? We will find out the truth soon enough. - Blaid
 * Now you're getting absurd Blaid. All artworks in every Ultimania are not commented on by Studio BentStuff. Either they are presented without comments or Nomura has a sentence or two to say about them. In this case these are the original design notes by Square Enix on the document. Here is the original, you can translate the text yourself if you don't trust the one linked above. How can it get any more canon than this when both the animal on Master Xehanort's and Young's Xehanort's Keyblade is described by a Square Enix artist? I think there are at least three theories why the design of this Keyblade doesn't necessarily has to follow those of the other Foreteller Keyblades, there is really no reason we have to make it fit by any means necessary. -- 00:22, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

That's a ram. Though to be fair, it takes a few liberties - Biblical liberties more like, since rams are representative of the devil. The snout and the ears, though a little elongated, are definitely a ram's. The horns though are a little bit funny though - rams follow the pythagorean spiral pattern, also known as a fibonacci number. Rams with straight horns are a rarity and genetic defect, but they DO happen. As for the fangs, they are MUCH too short to be large feline canines. They're more proportionate to like....a house cat, or maybe a vampire bat (not the front ones!). Sooo....to put this discussion to rest, yes, it's a ram. If you want to be accurate, it's a ram. If you want to be inaccurate and stand by canon sources....which retcon themselves regularly! - go with lion.....even though "luxuria" is actually evocative of scorpions! Personally though, I'd go with the demon. Specifically, the Jersey Devil! 1-....It actually looks like the damn thing. 2-It stands to to toe with some of the mythological animals represented by the Foretellers, like the Unicorn. --Ignis (talk) 23:13, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
 * If we're going mythological there are so many things a "horned lion" can be apart from a demon like a chimera, a manticore or even a behemoth, a poster child of the Final Fantasy series. -- 00:22, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You know, that's actually a good point. That said, the fangs and snout are both not quite long enough.  It still fits the bill more so of a goat or demon. --Ignis (talk) 01:42, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, I shall be clear. There are multiple animals per Sin, three for Pride and two for the other six. Pretty much, this video will sum them up rather well. But simply put, Pride will most likely be a Gryphon or Peacock, but I am not ruling out a Lion. Out of the Six apprentice Keyblades, only Gula's Keyblade that does not align with his specific Sin animals. Lust has two, the goat being primary, the scorpion secondary. Given the fact they have already dun-Fooked-up with Gula's, unless Gula has some kind of twin out there named comparable to Gluttony or is actually a false stand in for the "real" Gula then I imagine there is some looseness with some Keyblades. So it is entirely possible, that Luxu's Keyblade does not have to be 100% a goat, but it IS a goat. And in regards to what you said about the Devil, Ignis, the Devil of Lust is Asmodeus and one interpretation of him is this here. A friend of mine claimed once that Nomura has even coined the term "Goat" in an interview, but he neglected to give me a link, so... second hand source I am afraid. Sorry. --Blaid (talk) 02:20, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, I did find this theory rather amusing, it even sounds plausible given what happened to his Keyblade when MX possessed YX. --Blaid (talk) 02:41, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You who are saying that Nomura is lying about it being a lion (extraordinary claims, etc.), have you looked at its nose? That's not a goat nose. It's a lion nose -- it has the pronounced cleft from the nostrils to the lips which lions have and goats do not. It's not even goat horns -- they curve up, not down like a goat. It has no strictly goat-like features -- what it has are horns (which are often added to fantastic creatures) and a snout (which is not at all unique to goats). And then we have the official design notes saying that Nomura intended it to be a horned lion. Which is a thing that exists in mythology.
 * What is even the hypothetical endgame for Nomura in lying about it being a lion? He revealed that the Keyblade belonged to the Lust apprentice in the exact same scene that he revealed that it even was an apprentice Keyblade and that there even was a Lust apprentice. There was no period where we were unsure whether the Keyblade belonged to the Lust or Pride apprentices, or what their Keyblade would look like. There's no realistic narrative for why Nomura would be "concealing the truth".
 * In response to Ignis, yes, it's clearly meant to be a demonic entity, by way of being a horned lion. Jersey Devil looks pretty close (given that is not any sort of consensus depiction of the Jersey Devil), and could maybe be mentioned as an entity the design is trying to evoke, as long as it's clear that it's doing so by illustrating, officially, a horned lion ("a horned lion, possibly intended to represent the X", etc.).
 * That's not Asmodeus, that's Baphomet. This is Asmodeus. Baphomet has not a damn thing to do with Lust, and doesn't actually have any background mythology because it was invented by the Church in an incident similar to the "Satanic Panic" of the 1980s.
 * It's a horned lion, we're not going to be giving a shred of respect to anything but officially published material, deal with it. Without a contrary design claim from an official Kingdom Hearts publication, further discussion is a violation of the wiki's policies, and will by definition be trolling. 05:48, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Since when has this turned into a Wikitatorship? --Ignis (talk) 15:35, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Baphomet is just an alternate version of Asmodeus, different cultures and names but same Devil, do your own research. Asmodeus was invented by the Church, as their incarnation of Baphomet. Why would Nomura lie? Let me answer that with a simple "he has misled us before". He claimed that the only time a slain Nobody can regain their Heart is after their Heartless is slain, but we have since learned that Nobodies can attain their own hearts over time. He claimed the "Unknown" in BBS was a completely new character, which technically speaking, it isn't... it is just a Younger Xehanort. He said that the Cloaked man was the "Master of Masters", but it isn't, its Luxu. He has mislead us once or twice per game. The reason he is telling us it is a Lion is simple. He is making us believe that "this is the Keyblade inherited from the Master of Masters", that the Master of Masters is gone and Luxu is the only one that is left. But imagine it this way... he misled us, it is a goat, and the Master of Masters has survived all this time with his Lion Keyblade waiting in the wings. Goats have elongated faces and Horns that generally pronounce upwards from the heads, just like the form on the default Keyblade, I live in the country and I have seen enough Goats to know exactly how they look. But as I said, this is all very debatable and time will tell. This is a discussion page, and if to "discuss" on a discussion page is a violation of policies, then I seriously question the competence of those in charge. Trolling and Vandalism on a wiki is contained to editing pages. I have said my piece, I shall say no more. Time will tell. --Blaid (talk) 14:14, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Dude, I've actually studied occultism for a long while now, Asmodeus has nothing to do with Baphomet, and Baphomet was invented later anyway.
 * Young Xehanort is a separate character. We see him alongside Xehanort. He's only the "same character" in the sense that Riku, Ansem, and Xemnas are the same character.
 * The cloaked man is the Master of Masters. There's two cloaked men. They have different designs. Compare the images.
 * Dude, look at a picture of goat horns. They don't curve that way.
 * Most of your post is just wrong on basic factual levels.
 * You're not "discussing" anything. You're asking us to treat the published materials as lies to publish your (as I've shown quite ill-founded) fanfiction instead. As I stated, what you're asking is strictly against wiki policy even before we start acknowledging that it's completely counter to reality, so to continue arguing that it should be enacted when you know policy won't let it be is by definition trolling -- you are knowingly wasting everyone's time. If you think we should change policy to allow your fanfiction, you should be discussing that, but this is like going to the BMV and demanding a marriage license -- it's a waste of time, it's been explained why it's a waste of time, and you're still demanding it.
 * Again: continuing to argue about it on this page will not succeed, because policy is against it. Open a forum for public comment about the policy if you wish, but continuing to bark on this page will be treated as trolling. 15:37, 31 July 2016 (UTC)