Talk:Unversed

Opinion?
Does anyone else think they should have just stuck with Heartless and Nobodies? I just feel like adding an enemy that precedes the Heartless (originally, the REAL threat) seems kind of silly. It would have been better in continuity of they just stuck with the original enemies instead of trying to give us another "original enemy". 75.42.222.81 18:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Heartless started within the timeline of Kingdom hearts 1. so they had to have something else. Zack fair 007 23:15, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You think that the mad hatter's song " A Very Merry Unbirthday" has anything to do with them? Roxas-rules 19:20, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * WHY do people keep claiming that Xion is an unbirth??? We dont even know for certain what unbirths are!!
 * Ahem, anyway, I hope they tie them to the sleeping part of this game. And then there could be stuff from Sleeping Beauty (which could already be the wheel master).

Summon:WALL•E 08:24, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The reason is that there is no other logical explanation that we can see. both her heart and her body are acounted for over the entire duration of kingdom hearts one.Rock2060 22:26, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Theory
Instead of being negative souls, they are negative LIFE. See this: Heartless: Corrupted Hearts Nobody: Corrupted Bodies Unbirths: (Presumingly) Corrupted "Lifeforce". See the contradictions in names? They are the "opposite of human life", being life without reason, without a body to sustain, no heart to guide it. "Birth By Sleep"-Born In Sleep. If sleep can be called the process of the division into heartless, nobody and unbirth, you got an origin right in the title. -Good Night Everybody! MEXORAN

I must say I have to agree with this theory whole heartedly (pun intended). Like you said Heartless are a heart in a body of darkness, nobodies are the body and soul leftover when the darkness invades, so maybe unbirths are just a body and a heart?

unbirth = soul
An unbirth is the soul just like the nobody and the heartless are the body and the heart. In the ansem report 7 it says wen ar heartless is created the body and soul are reborn into another world. A good example is Sora his heartless a shadow was born in Hallow Bastion but his nobody Roxas was born in Twilight Town.

And there is good proof that Xeanorts unbirth is leading the unbirths because his heartless and nobody leaded the nobodys (Xemnas) and the heartless (Ansem)

one last thing Xion is not an unbrirt she is a !nobody!

how can she be a nobodywhen riku has her body for the entire game.Rock2060 22:28, 24 February 2009 (UTC) except Nobodies are the body AND soul.

But we don't even know MX is Xehanorts unbirth, and a lot of people think Terra is Xehanorts unbirth.

Idea
I think that when a Nobody meets with it's original being ( Such as when Roxas meets with Sora ) the nobody goes back to the normal soul, meaning that the nobody is non- existint anymore, resulting in the nobody being unborn. ( Namine and Roxas are exceptions ) When this happens, another being is created. But instead of one occurence = one heartless/nobody, it creates one unbirth with the power to multiply. Every time this happens, the original unbirth goes to a certain world. When it reaches this world, it starts multiplying. When the original unbirth is defeated, the other unbirth's are destroyed also.Master of Valor 00:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarkmaster says- Ralfiki did said that its the Circle of Life

Just a thought




not just the soul
the problem is that it cant just be the soul because then there would be an overwhelming number of ubirths in the other kingdom hearts games and there absense would require an arbitrary explaination. heartless\ nobodys are made when you lose your heart something that is not natrule. but you are suposed to lose your soul its called dieing.

now for some reason not every heartless spawns a nobody my theroy is this if a heartless is formed it affects the soul in such a way that it will move. if the soul sticks with the body you get a nobody if the soul gose with the heart instead of geting a heartless you get an unbirth. of course its also likely that if the soul will chose neither in wich case you get one heartless and a dead body. this would explain why heartless are more abundent then the other 2

Clarkmaster thunkSince Troisnyxetienne is right than that means Ven is NOT soras unbirth, unless the game takes place 14 years before kh 1

And that would be the end of Ven's story, wouldn't it? That defintley means Ven is an unbirth, and if that's true than the first major unbirth seen is Ven so riku has no major importance to BBS as of yet, so Terra has got to be Xehanort!Clarkmaster been thinkin

Guys, let's put the pieces together
We can say that Terra's a jackass just like Xehanort, but seriously, We can put together that Terra is the only one able to be Xehanort, Ven is Sora's Unbirth, we have no clue who is Aqua, the apprentice looks like Dark form Riku, and that apperintly we are very good at puttin stuff together-Clarkmaster

Well as far as we know, she died, or turned into heartless/nobody/unbirth because of her armor in Xemnas room, I've also seen that Xemnas in armor form vagly resembles Terra in his armor-Clarkmaster

Well, there's two ways this could happen, one: her soul is possesing the armor, two: Xemnas is crazy-Clarkmaster

I vote on him being crazy, but what I just thought the two heartless optional bosses, phantom and kurt ziza, they could be the apprintece-Clarkmaster

When Xigbar is talking to Zexion about the room of sleep (Where Aqua's armor is), he is ends by saying that: Maybe, in Calstle Oblivion, that's where the "other" room is. (Or something like that) What could be in the Other room? Xiggie

Well the awakening could be what sora and roxas had to go through, exactly why I dont remember, but it could be the awakening of the only one that's missing, Ven, so that could further help explain Ven choosing Way to Dawn as the castle was in the nobody castle, a castle of twilight- Clarkmaster

Ok, but technacly they are nobodies so no one is actually living there, but I get what your saying, so what are the unbirth atributes? Heartless=Darkness. Nobodies=Nothingness/Twilight. Sora and friends=Light.-Clarkmaster

I thank you nailed it at menace. If you can't controll something powerful, than it causes chaos and if they're is a realm of chaos than the keyblade and its weilder would have to be one of the five new keyblade weilders from Birth By Sleep-Clarkmaster

Well, if all of the keblade Masters die or something in birth by sleep than there's gotta be a sequel with a keyblade masterClarkmaster

Of course, but that would mean another major character, the revealing of Ven, Terra, and Aqua to Sora and the revealing of the new Clarkmaster

Lol, we all totally got off track, but let's look at this. Xigbar seems to know the most about all this Birth by Sleep stuff, followed by Xemnas. So maybe Braig is the reason why Xehanort lost his memories. It could also explain why Xemnas and Xigbar never seem to like eachother. Another theory, is that Xehanort IS Terra, explaining the similar looks, and Braig was supposed to be like a keyblade master, but instead Terra was picked instead, and Braig did the same thing Riku did with Sora in KH1, and then they became friends again... I probably sound crazy, but from my point of view... no I am crazy-- Morghman

What happened in the keyblade War?
No, Nomura hasn't said anything else. This realy isn't the place to ask something like this, but this topic piques my intrest: How do you know that there even were that many Keybalde weilders at one time? There can only be four Keyblade weilders (and their Nobodies, and possiblly their Heartless or Unbirths) at a time. There could be a number of diffrent explanations. Some of the Keyblades shown in the trailor are Sora's meaning they could represent memories, worlds, or people. It's also possible that those are the Keyblades of previous Keybalde weilders and that the Crossroads is where their Keyblades are laid to rest. Also, how to we even know the "Keyblade War" was fought with people? It's possible it was the Keyblades fighting themselves, resulting in the four Realm's (Realm of Light, Realm of Darkness, Realm of In Between, and Realm of Nothingness) indivigual Keyblades. Their's way too many possiblities to go further with this. -xNaminéx


 * Maybe they (Ven, Terra, Aqua) didn't die but were passed one as the infulence of the next generation, but Terra apperantly goes evil, Riku, the origanil realm of light keyblader master, goes temporay evil, leaving the realm of light to chose Sora as, unlike Ven, the keyblade master of light, leaving Darkside to Aqua and Mickey, and the left over keyblade, Way to Dawn to Riku as, like Ven (I guess?), chose the road in between-Clarkmaster

Not necessarily. If the Keyblade can choose it's own master, why can't it fight by itself? And I didn't really mean a physical battle, I meant that the Keyblade War could possiley have been the interal power struggle between Light and Darkness for supremessy, thus creating the Keyblades of each Realm.-xNaminéx

What about the Lingering Sentiment? If Terra is Xehanort, what is it then? Couldn't it be Terra's keyblade acting on its own? Veroso 02:23, 27 January, 2009

The master has the Keyblade based on the domain. That's why Sora took the Kingdom Key, the Keyblade of Light. It orinally chose Riku, but since Riku chose darkness, the Kingdom Key chose Sora instead, because Sora's heart stayed in the Light. Riku has the Way to the Dawn, the Keybalde of In Between, because after Xehanort's Heartless posessed him, he tries to find his Light, but realized he could have both. -xNaminéx

Oh. I see what your saying. The weilder chooses their own path. But what i'm saying is that the keyblade they get is based off the path they choose.-xNaminéx

So who is Xehanort? The second most probable suspect seems to be MX's apprentice. Veroso 02:50, 27 January, 2009

He's apperantly dark, possiby one of the later Org. XIII members, Xehanort, defentley not a final fantasy character, but each weilder has a new generation version, Ven=Sora. Terra=Riku. Aqua=Kairi/Mickey (due to the Darkside). So the question is, Who in Kh1, CoM, and Kh2 is the equevelint of The Apperintance?-Clarkmaster

Isn't it obvious? Saix and the Guardian all remind you of the Apprentice! 13:44, 28 January, 2009 Veroso

Saix has no keyblade, but the Guardian could be a side affect from Xehanort's Heartless powers, any one thinking anti-sora?Clarkmaster

Well, Aqua's out. Terra's muslcel structure seems bigger, Ven seem a canident-Clarkmaster

Sora, Riku, Roxas, Mickey, and Kairi are 5 outta 6 of the current keybladers. Sora and Roxas are taken by Ven, Riku is taken by Terra, Kairi and Mickey are taken by Aqua, we have no clue who's the other have of Xion, but its probaly not the Apperantice, but who,who else, it can't be final fantasy,could it just be a dark younger clone of MX or is it a acuall person, and what's the deal with the name "Xehanort" any way, I guess its was one sell or something-Clarkmaster

Okay I lost this at xNaminex's comment since when are there only four keyblade masters? In the "another report" (Official commentary by Nomura I linked to it on the Main page's talk section too lazy to do so here) it is specificaly stated that this is not the case. While there is probably a keyblade for each realm those are not the only one's. I have no idea where that idea could have originated from

Since when are there only four keybalde masters when Nomura specificaly said there are more? Oh Yee of little faith http://www.kingdomhearts3.net/another-report/pages-28-29/#ar "as many as there are qualified hearts"

They are 5 seen keybladers in Birth by Sleep, 6 (counting the nobodies) keybladers in the mainstream comunity as of now, who knows, 368/2 or something might have another keyblader, coded might not, so all we can rely on is Nomura's word and screen shots, and for those who are confused keyblader is what Hades called Sora in Kingdom Hearts II and I sounds kinda cool- Clarkmaster

And if Xion is not the nobody of Aqua, and if my theory is right than Xion posseses the keyblade due to being expiremnted by the Organization with some of Sora's memories, such as the ability to be a keyblader, than she, like roxas, is a fragment of a keyblader, or this theory could be completely wrong, go figure	Clarkmaster

It could mean the chosen one of light, since Riku is in between, Mickey is darkness, and Kairi is apperantly nothingness Clarkmaster

Has the phrase "Chosen one" ever actually been used.(Quote the damn Scene)

Leon used it. After he knocks Sora out cold, I can't remeber the quote, but either he or Yuffie says it Clarkmaster

I looked up both versions of that scene and thatis a LIE!(mad twitching) anyhoo there is mention of the "keyblade's chosen one" but with the theory that "The Voice"(capitals) is the keyblade that might be literal (if there is more than one keyblade... and there is)then they all get to choose.(no backsies)

Sorry, coulda sorn one of them said it, but I know for sure that Axel used it refering to Roxas Clarkmaster

Since a Heartless is a heart that is lost in darkness and a Nobody is a body that lost its heart, I'm guessing an Unbirth is a being that's made or "born" when unnatural creatures like Nobodies and Heartless are made. Or maybe instead of the darkness, it's the Unbirths that makes a heart into a Heartless and a body into a Nobody. Or here's another theory: Now in Kingdom Hearts, there was a lot of Heartless. In Kingdom Hearts 2, there was still a lot of Heartless and a small number of Nobodies. My theory is in Birth By Sleep, there was a lot of Unbirths that were created by Master Xenahort and his apprentice, who Xenahort chose over his former apprentices, the Chasers (He saw that the Chasers were weak and small-minded and unwilling to gain true power). These Unbirths were all destroyed by Ven, Aqua, and Terra. Augment96 04:39, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Heartless,Nobody,and Unbirth
Well what you say is wrong i think. people have hearts. something without a heart = heartLESS people have bodies. something withouth a body = NObody people have souls. something without a soul, meaning that it has never been born. =unbirth.

The opposite of life is something wich hasn't been born. because death is part of the circle of life, it isn't the opposite.

Unbirth - Unborn
It may be referring to beings that never had the chance to be born. If that is right, then it will explain why an Unbirth isn't present in the original games, seeing how Heartless and Nobodies are already born beings. User:Charmed-Jay

It's called "Unbirth" and refers to the opposite of human life. if not death, then it mean never-born. maybe the spirit that died before it could hatch in a body. User:Charmed-Jay

Heartless are created from the hearts of people who fall into darkness. Nobodies are created from those people who lose their hearts. IMO, Unbirths are created from souls who don't have hearts and/or bodies. Simple, makes sense. Drake Clawfang 20:40, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

=Origin=

Twilight=Nothingness, in the context of KH.

Heartless are hearts (emotion, darkness), but the heart also has to act as the body, and so since the heart can't work full time on its real job, the creature acts "Heartless".

Nobodies are bodies (form, twilight), but the body also has to emulate emotions and thought (which is why when they emulate emotion, it's always so dramatic and theatrical, and they don't use body language), so it too is working overtime. Thus, the body cannot fully just be "there", which makes them seem insubstantial, like they don't fully exist. (Technically, Nobodies have souls as well, but most important is the body). The strongest Nobodies, best able to emulate emotion, seem to have filled their hearts with the element they represent - which is why Axel has a passionate, fiery personality, warm but destructive; Roxas is pure and high-minded; Larxene is caustic, quick to anger, and tantalizing; Vexen is haughty and arrogant (cold); and Marluxia is vain and focused on death (cherry blossoms being a symbol of death in Japan).

Unbirth's are presumably just souls (mind, light) - trying to emulate form and emotion, but being quite similar to the concept of the "soul waiting to be put in a body" that you get between Reincarnation, or before incarnation, etc. Thus, they represent something that is no longer alive, or has never been. As the mind is an abstract, it is the least substantial of the three - a body is purely physical, and a heart is a thing of the world, but the soul is eternal. Thus, by itself, it is even more "nonexistant" than the others. The Ansem Report's specifically explain that without the heart, a barely existent Nobody (body and soul) is formed, and a Nobody without a body (a soul only) soon fades away completely. Birth by Sleep will probably give a setting which allows the Souls to survive on their own for some reason; as it is a prequel, maybe the war of the keyblades actually had something to do with making sure souls went away once the body and heart ended. Maybe they had a ghost problem?

A Heartless, once destroyed, liberates the heart from darkness. A Nobody, once defeated, seems to have their body actually destroyed (since they are at least, physically there), leaving the soul behind. Unbirths could very well be a setup for what happens to a dying Nobody, and the mythos about them will probably set up a way for the Organization members to come back in some form.

A whole person, a being, is all three of these. They are not represented by any specific direction on light-dark, and may choose at their own will. While not "nothingness/twilight", they are a blank slate, so a whole may fill themselves with light (Sora), darkness (Riku), or nothingness (Xehanort).

It was actually pretty clear this was the mythology they were going to create since Chain of Memories - people (including me) were calling it before KHII came out. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  18:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)


 * ...noo...Xemnas makes it absolutely rock-solid clear that nothingness, the nobodies, are "in between light and dark"/"teetering on the edge"/etc. Then, you've got Twilight Town, the epicenter of nearly all Nobodies. Not even Mr. Lister's Koromon  survived intact.  19:19, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Combination?
Maybe they're the combination of a nobody and the heartless that came from it. That would explain the small population. The reason that they are the opposite of human life is that this time their hearts are pure darkness, no light at all.

Or
Unbirths could be (I am making a wild guess) born when a nobody and a heartless reunite and fuse together. Thus a person is becoming unborn. Dark one 01:27, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

In Kingdom Hearts II
Just throwing this one out there. My friend and I restarted Kingdom Hearts II for the umpteenth time last night, and at the part where Roxas takes Naminé's drawing to the library, I though of something. You know how there are three symbols he has to draw in? You only get to see two: the Heartless and Nobody symbol. This is just a guess, but maybe the third one that the light blocks out is the unbirth symbol. Sorry if someone already mentioned this... ><;; Daydreamer3173

GREAT THEORY. I think yours works. =) --Zack fair 007 23:05, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

that symbol was a crown (perhaps a "Somebody" or "Complete" emblem)and we already have an Unbirth symbol.and this theory has been stated thousands of times.Good try though.Swing and a miss.

Ah, well, I never heard it before, so I wasn't sure. What a shame. ><; -Daydreamer3173

Variation on the theories flying around
There are umpteen theories on this, and mine bears some similarities, but I direct you here for the simple core idea of my theory... that Unbirths are the result of the Body being separated from the Heart and Soul

A summary of my thoughts
I've seen a pattern among the Heartless, Nobodies and Unbirth; One aspect of it is complete, one is corrupt and one is missing. By aspect, I mean body, heart and soul. It works like this: So following this pattern, an Unbirth would go like this: Does this work? Maggosh 23:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Heartless: Has a complete body, a corrupt heart, and *possibly* no soul.
 * Nobody: Has a *possibly* complete soul, a corrupt (discarded) body and no heart.
 * Unbirth: Has a complete heart, a corrupt soul and no body.

Unbirth is possibly the soul
I dont like how everyone is just debunking all the unbirth = soul theorys because "they never showed up in other games" Im sorry but did nobodys show up at all in Kingdom hearts (the original). If your gonna argue "Xemnas appeared as a mystery boss in Final mix" he was not identified as a nobody, just a guy in a cloak. Yes they evolved on the idea but how do we know that a Unbirth hasnt shown up, for all we know Terra could have been transformed into a unbirth. Aqua's armor responds in the end to Xemnas, how do we know that she isnt an unbirth also just trapped in her armor somehow (like her soul was trapped, and if your gonna say thats impossible, The game has little hearts coming out of dead shadow creatures, almost nothing is impossible in this game.) For all we know Xehanort/Xemnas/Ansem (heartless) Is what terra became. IT makes sense. Xehanort looks like terra, in 358/2 days he gives a scene that mirrors the one terra does to ven, When Xehanort arrived on Raident Garden he had no memory of his past, its possible that he remembered Master Xehanorts name and took it as his own. Ansem planned to unlock Xehanort's memory, maybe xehanort continued that idea, or when he turned heartless/nobody/unbirth his memory unlocked. Would explain a few things, Why he called Aqua's armor friend, why he acted friendly to Roxas (similariy in appearance), Why he looks like terra in various ways. After Xemnas was created, Ansem (Heartless) Was created and Terra Could be the unbirth. We have no idea how Unbirth feel, but if they are souls then its possible that they do indeed have emotions, which means that The darkness manifested in heartless and nobody forms but his unbirth being his soul, may have been conflicted and thats why he isnt exactly "Evil" just confused and hostile. There is a similar theory (i honestly didnt take anything from it i jus realised it 2 secondsd ago) on Terra's page. If Terra is an unbirth it would explain alot. it would be a time line like this: Terra-Xehanort(after memory loss)-Experiment-Creates Ansem Xemnas and Terra (unbirth)-Ansem takes the look of MX-Xemnas gets rid of Terra (unbirth) and takes Aqua's armor (the friend comment)-Terra (Unbirth) Being the manifestation of Terra (normal)'s soul he is conflicted between good and evil (like riku in a sense) Which is why he doesnt act evil just full of emotions, Mostly regret, grief etc. Why dont unbirths show up? Its possible that Xemnas, seeing how emotional Terra is, purposely makes sure that no more unbirths show up. This theory gives credit to Terra's nicknames on his page, Why Xemnas cant find "his heart" when he attempts to claim it from KH because it would be Terra's, Why his eyes turn yellow, its possible that terra's hair turned white as well. This theory gives credit to unbirths being souls as well because, if Terra is the unbirth, then it would prove that souls manifest as well into beings, Souls dont go with nobodys or heartless as they always said that the Heartless is what happens when someone falls prey to the darkness, No body or soul. There is NOTHING that says the nobody has the soul, thats just an assumption, they are whats left of the body as the soul would possess certain emotions, and may possess them all as the heartless dont show emotion as they are not in control of themselves. Ansem does show emotion, anger, but so does the nobodys, he may have been faking it as well. We dont know much about the unbirth so nooone can say a theory is wrong, or right. Unless ofcourse someone says that the darness of a heart isnt a heartless but a unbirth or something in which case its obviously wrong. please comment on how you feel, btw i used Terra/Xemnas/Ansem because they show the most about their respective beings (Terra being my theory ofcourse.)-- Whitedragon254 23:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

A Very Merry Unbirthday
Hmm... it would seem that no one gave any notice to Roxas-rules' comment about the Mad Hatter's song. Mcoolister 21:26, 25 June 2009 (UTC)