Talk:Main Page

 This page is for discussion of the Main Page only. Please don't post comments here that don't relate to the Main Page. Post on the forum instead.

Mysterious Tower Battle Music BBS
Can Anyone Post the batte music "Working Together" From Birth By Sleep? Not the Kingdom Hearts II Version.

EDIT BY ALLENX360-- I found this on youtube... is it good?? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFlxdwuUedE

No KH3, fansites mistranslated again:
Game Informer 207;
 * Bryan Vore: "Translations of your interview in the Kingdom Hearts: Birth by Sleep Ultimania seem to confirm that Kingdom Hearts III is coming along with two other games."
 * Tetsuya Nomura: "Kingdom Hearts III is not a confirmed titles. I actually phrased my answer for the Ultimania "two titles other than III" to avoid speculation that we were working on Kingdom Hearts III."
 * Bryan Vore: "Are there any hints you can provide about these games?"
 * Tetsuya Nomura: "Hints would give away too much, and for Kingdom Hearts we're contractually obligated to keep any information that has not been officially released under wraps. However, I can say one of the two projects mentioned above came into existence because we wanted to do something for the North American fans, so we'll be announcing it at E3."

RE: your galleries
I notice at:

http://kingdomhearts.wikia.com/wiki/Sora#Forms/Costumes

The galleries are normal. As you may or may not know, they really messed up the galleries, causing a lot of frustration and anger. See:

http://community.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Sarah_Manley/Design_your_own_photo_galleries

An editor wrote:


 * I checked with the custom CSSs and KHWiki do not have one. Everyone else who's dissatisfied can check and see one of the example pages, because Wikia seems to have overlook this.


 * I wish to highlight that one of the Wikis, the Kingdom Hearts Wiki apparently managed to keep their old Wikipedia-style Gallery intact. How can they not be affected?

So how did you all doe this ? I would be dying to know because I despise the new galleries too. Please message me on my talk page with a response, or let me know when you responded here. Thank you. Anno1404 01:01, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Facebook symbol.
Hello? 15:02, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone? 22:01, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

What about this? Can someone attach it onto the page? (with permission, of course)

http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt273/hsiao-yu/icon_facebook.gif   --Axel  - Boo to you too! http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll112/Icy_Scientist/pumpkin2.gif 22:08, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

Helloooooo? 16:04, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't it say at the top of the page "share this article" with a facebook icon next to it? -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  16:29, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Beside the twitter and freenode symbol, the share the article is only for the page to be shown on your Facebook profile. 17:41, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Then I don't know. -- Neumannz ,  The Dark Falcon  17:44, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

I just mean shouldn't we add the facebook symbol beside the microphone on the main page beacause we do have a facebook page? 21:01, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

The New Look
Im sorry Kingdom Hearts Wiki, but this new look is anoying and confusing, if you please.... CHANGE IT BACK!!!

Wikia changed it. We did nothing. ==Pea 14733== 07:51, October 22, 2010 (UTC)

Well then Wikia change it back!!!

If you read the forum with all the cursing symbols in it's name, and when i say in its name i maean as it's name, you'll find that we've been trying to convince them to do just that, but they just don't wanna listen to us. and please sign your posts-- Shadows  Twilight  06:06, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

Command Board updating
Yeah guys, all of the Heartless contained in the box have been updated accordingly. They need to be replaced with more articles in need of repair. I wasn't sure if I was allowed to do this without a staff member... so... yeah. Have fun.

Question
Now that KHW has a YT page, should we link it to the main page ? Also bringing up the reminder about the Facebook group — it'd be great if we could edit just that section of the main page. Tambours Tonnerre Ensemble !  08:11, 10 February 2011 (EST)

News
I think our breaking off from Wikia has earned a mention on the news section on thi Wiki and the Wikia one. There should also definitely be a link on the Wikia-Wiki to this address. If we want thisWiki to get more traffic we need it to be more prominent on the original location.15:30, 12 February 2011 (EST)
 * I didn't notice the move until now. Until today, I thought that this wiki still was based on Wikia, and I see that several people have been editing there, possibly not knowing anything about the move. Wouldn't there be some way to get people to find this site from the old Wikia site?
 * For example, you could copy new sections of certain important articles from this site to the Wikia site. According to the Creative Commons licence, this requires attribution of the source of the relevant section (with a link to a page where the article history can be located), so you get a reason to include a link to this site. This link would have to go to the corresponding article on this site, so contributors might notice that the formulations are almost the same, realising that this is where to look instead.
 * It would also be nice if this would get people to go away from that annoying Wikia site. I had to add a bookmark to my bookmark toolbar appending '?useskin=monobook' (or '&useskin=monobook' depending on the URL) to the current data in the location bar just in order to read that site! --212.247.11.156 23:07, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * We actually can't advertise this site on the wikia site, as the people who own the wikia site (wikia) would erase that and ban anyone who put it up. The most we can do is put links to this site on the userpages of the people who've left the old site, which we've done.
 * Copying the content over to the old site would just make the old site easier to find on google, because of how it's algorithms work. On the long haul, it's better for us to just keep making high-quality, unique content so that we appear higher on google searches.
 * Yeah, we know, Oasis sucks. 23:32, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Mirage Arena
Now that the Nominations are up and running and the Battle Box vote has started, shouldn't we post a link to them on the main page? 15:57, 12 February 2011 (EST)

Partnership
Hey, sry if I'm in the wrong section, I want to ask you about a partnership with the KH-Wiki. It's ok if you aren't interested in anything like this, just wanted to ask you, though. Just in case I'm one of the leading administrators. Greetings Sum2k3 14:28, 19 March 2011 (EDT) Ok, i was in the wrong section.. also partnership sounds a bit wrong. xD I found the right corner to ask about affiliation. Sum2k3 04:02, 20 March 2011 (EDT)

Interviews
So, mainly spurred by EnglishJoker going around checking our unsourced statements, I went through KHInsider's archives and got links to every interview I could find (excluding a few repetitive ones). I figure it's easier to have a shortlist here rather than having to do this every time we need a source. Most involve fluff we already know now or development things, but I have them for the sake of completedness. So... here:

"The Birth of Kingdom Hearts"  The Birth by sleep ending video  The tone of the Kingdom Hearts series  The side stories of Kingdom Hearts  Days, coded, and BBS, post-reveal   Nomura talks Kingdom Hearts  Days and coded gameplay  BBS, Days, and coded  More BBS, Days, and coded  Tidbits of BBS, Days, and coded  BBS, Days, and coded, take two  New trailers and interviews  New trailers and interviews… again  Three games, three developers, three interviews  Nomura, no answers  Nomura and Hasagawa  Long gameplay… interview?  Long, missing Ultimania interviews   How coded connects  Big Days interview    Big BBS interview  Interview with Yasue  Interview with Nomura and Yasue  Nomura’s opinions on BBS  Nomura on BBS again  Another missing Ultimania interview  Yet another BBS interview  Interview with other developers  Post-BBS interview  Massive BBS interview   Non-Nomura coded interview  Nomura, yes answers  Lots and lots of answers  Nomura is a lying liar  Another short interview  3D, coded, and Pixar  BBS and Re:coded  BBS development and design  Nomura talks 3D  Nomura talks BBS development  Nomura talks 3D  Nomura talks Re: coded development  Nomura talks 3D and BBSFM   Re: coded mysteries   3D interview  BBSFM interview  Wardrobe change in 3D  Yoko Shimomura interview   20 Mysteries of KH 
 * Very brief interview with some information about when Nomura began development on the KH concept.
 * Wide variety of information, mostly relating to the secret ending video of KHIIFM, and the then-recently named characters; Terra, Aqua, and Ven.
 * Again, only a very brief mention of KH, but Nomura notes the difference in tone between KH and FF (the latter is darker than the former), and may indicate the somewhat darker tone Days and BBS took.
 * Generally nothing new except for some tidbits of developmental information, except for one part where Nomura describes the then-untold “side stories” that don’t focus on Sora, including the BBS video, Mickey finding the Kingdom Key D, Roxas’ life, and Riku activity during Sora’s slumber.
 * Simple interviews with Nomura not long after BBS, Days, and coded were revealed.
 * General stuff about the series, particularly BBS, coded, and Days.
 * A brief interview discussing some gameplay for Days and coded.
 * Three sizeable interviews about BBS, Days, and coded, covering a wide array of topics about them.
 * A bit less info than the above interviews, but Nomura talks about the “Unbirths” and seems to make a direct reference to the “born” part of their names. Weird.
 * Tiny interviews about the three games.
 * Contains another set of fairly large interviews about the games.
 * Contains brief interviews about Nomura talking about the then-recently released trailers for the three games.
 * Same as the above.
 * Nomura and two other developers are interviewed.
 * Contains a brief interview where Nomura doesn’t really reveal anything new.
 * Contains part of an interview with Nomura and Hasagawa about the development of Days.
 * Contains a long bit of info about Days’ gameplay. KHInsider says it’s an interview, but either they’re talking about the link to Heartstation I’m too lazy to follow or I’m just not seeing the interview part. Including it for safety.
 * Should contain a long interview about BBS and coded, but the links display 404 errors.
 * Contains a brief interview about the three games, and comments on how coded links up to the rest of the series.
 * A big interview about things relating to the Organization and Days. No, Nobodies don’t age.
 * Equally large interview about BBS with a lot of info. Including the official name of the Unversed.
 * Interview with co-director Yasue about BBS.
 * Interview with Nomura and Yasue about BBS.
 * Contains a brief interview with Nomura, which is mostly his opinions about BBS.
 * More of Nomura discussing BBS, particularly emphasizing how important Braig/Xigbar is in the series.
 * Should contain another Ultimania interview, but instead I get another 404 error.
 * Contains what I said.
 * Two developers, a rare interview devoid of Nomura, discuss the development of BBS.
 * Nomura talks about the steps leading up to KHIII and hints at another game after BBS and coded, and ends by making me want to throw rocks at him for not telling us anything.
 * Massive interview about some new revelations made in BBS.
 * Jun Kato discusses the development of coded and hints at it being released for systems other than phones.
 * Large interview with Nomura actually directly answering plot questions for once, mostly relating to BBS and questions it raised.
 * More of the above, but much larger and answering more questions.
 * Short interview about BBS where Nomura comments that there won’t be a game based on the Keyblade War. But he also says that there wouldn’t be a BBSFM, so we know how good his promises are…
 * Mostly about BBS and a bit about 3D development.
 * Contains brief info about 3D, coded, and Nomura’s interest in bringing in Pixar characters in the future.
 * Nomura talks about the changes to the English version of BBS and Re:coded.
 * Nomura talks about the development and design decisions behind BBS.
 * Short interview with Nomura giving a few details about KH3D’s story and whatnot.
 * Short interview where Nomura talks about why he made some development choices in BBS, like including Zack or some of the worlds.
 * Contains a brief Youtube of Nomura talking about 3DS.
 * Short interview about Re: coded.
 * Fairly large interview with Nomura discussing KH3D & BBSFM.
 * Interview with Nomura about Re: coded and the questions it raised.
 * A brief interview about the future of KH.
 * Short interview about the changes to BBSFM from the English BBS.
 * Very brief tidbit about Nomura looking into Sora and Riku’s outfits changing.
 * Change of pace with Shimomura talking about the music.
 * Don't think I found this one earlier. It's the one dealing with the origin of Xemnas, the Org., etc.

--09:21, 13 July 2011 (EDT)

SEIWA Box
Hey guys, sorry If I am out of place here; but I was wondering if someone could add a SEIWA area to the front page? Thank you for your time, Bud0011 01:36, 9 November 2011 (UTC).
 * Hmm... let me see what I can do.
 * Also, in the NIWA wikis, the logo's color is changed to match each wiki's overall color scheme. Would anyone object to me doing the same here? -- 23:52, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
 * By chance, do you mean how some NIWA wiki's have the NIWA logo, like so?
 * Like, in some places it's red while in others it's blue or green or pink in order to match that wiki's theme. -- 02:10, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, yeah. Minor cosmetic changes would probably be fine. So long as it is simple like a color change or something. ;). Bud0011 17:29, 10 November 2011 (UTC).

So, where can I find the crown image used as the website logo:

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i443/sakuraban/ScreenShot2011-11-10at84245PM.jpg -- 01:44, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Hold on, I'll go get the Hi-res version 02:41, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Here: http://i40.tinypic.com/5nu979.png 02:45, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Look's good.... especially the High-Def Vision. Also, was that a question? Bud0011 20:32, 11 November 2011 (UTC).
 * Can someone with coding knowledge put the template onto the main page so that it looks like this? -- 01:02, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I tried, but the template's coding conflicts with whatever I try. The template's content goes outside my divs, even though it isn't supposed to. -- So  ve  01:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Will that work? if not, feel free to change it, Bud0011 02:23, 12 November 2011 (UTC).
 * It would look better if it was directly under the Helping out box, but something in the template screws it up when I try to place it there. -- So  ve  02:27, 12 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, changed. Bud0011 02:38, 12 November 2011 (UTC).

Past tense
Sooo...it turns out that "past tense" is what is used to describe even in-play events on most high-quality wikis, like tfwiki or wookiepedia. Do we want to start using it as well, or are we happy as we are? 16:53, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Affiliate option
I have an option for affiliate that we need to discuss whether we should pursue, so all staff, please show up on the IRC today. 17:07, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Affiliate
hello im viper i am a lets player on youtube i am currently doing an lp on kingdom hearts and i am wondering if i could be affiliated with you guys i have a link to this wiki on my channel and ill put the link in the video descriptions as well please message me back with an answer thnaks! :)--

First, please remember to sign your posts. And secondly, what's a LP? A playthrough?-- 20:30, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

an LP means Lets Play what a lets play is its a playtrough/walktrough --Viper5787 (talk) 02:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I mean, if they're going to put a link in NOT ONLY their channel page, but ALSO the video descriptions we should FULL WELL accept this affiliation. 02:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

what are the chances of me actually getting affiliated? --Viper5787 (talk) 02:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Well considering the fact that your proposed LP will feature a link to the wiki on EACH video, along with your page. That adds more to the chances. I'd say you're 90% clear (I only say 90% because other staff need to input as well). 04:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

So what do i do about getting affiliated? is there someone i ask for this or no?--Viper5787 (talk) 03:32, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Shut down?
Wikipedia shuts down: Why aren't we protesting against SOPA and PIPA? (Wikipedia vs. United States Congress) --NumberXV 17:56, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Shortcut

 * Search for khwiki.net-- 17:06, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Look at this
http://disney.go.com/create/apps/digitalpainter/kingdom-hearts this was on disney.com, its pretty awesome and this is a game http://disney.go.com/games/play3/?content=863188#/games/play3/&content=863188


 * To clarify: these are official KH things and should be covered somewhere. 07:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Xehanort renders
I think they make a good addition to the page, at least until we finally decide to update it. I don't find them to be an eyesore. 19:03, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I do, especially since they're not even official. Since it's our KH3D theme, we should at least make it Sora and Riku, or the Wandanyan and Komori Bat. It's more fitting than randomly plopping Terranort and Xehanort on there. - 20:43, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I always thought that the Xehanort render is one of the best ever created, I'd really love to see a more prominent place for it. --ShardofTruth 14:31, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it looks great. Sora and Riku already own the logo, let's give the villains a place to shine. 14:36, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Considering that I'm rarely on the Main Page anymore, I think it looks fine. It makes people think "Oh damn, they have renders. This must be a professional site."   Maybe. *sniff* Maybe.     14:59, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Then we should be using the bloody official renders! The ability to extract and animate a render from game coding has nothing whatsoever to do with professionalism. I don't care how "cool" the one of Xehanort holding a heart is to people. It just looks so weird the way we randomly plop them, of all characters, on the page. The renders should at least have relevance to the Wiki-theme, which is, in this case, KH3D. If you're all so adamant on using Xehanort incarnations, why not just use Xemnas and Ansem, Seeker of Darkness? - 19:35, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I have prepared models of the main page using the three of my suggestions:


 * Option I - Sora and Riku
 * Option II - Wandanyan and Komori Bat
 * Option III - Ansem and Xemnas

I personally prefer Option I or II, but I'm willing to compromise and live with III... - 19:35, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, this is off-topic, but...damn, how small is your monitor, ENX? maggosh 19:43, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Calm down, ENX. We're all friends here.


 * Part of what attracts me to the Xehanorts is that I haven't seen these renders a million times before. There's uniqueness to it, because most people don't have access to unofficial renders. Also, the pictures of Sora and Riku feel much too static. They just stand there, not doing anything; at the very least we could use their fighting poses. 20:42, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not saying the render of Xehanort holding the heart isn't cool. It was excellently made. It's just not official, and we promote the usage of official material here. It's been our policy to always use official images if we have them before turning to fan-made ones; this has always been the case with articles, and I see no reason why it should not hold true here. I guess I'm just against the random usage of Terranort, when you get right down to it. I don't see any logic behind it other than the fact that he's posed the same way Xehanort is. Personally, I'd prefer to maintain the KH3D theme or just leave Apprentice Xehanort on there alone without Terranort or a second character. For those interested in what it would look like, here's a model of the Wiki's main page using Sora and Riku's battle poses:


 * Click Me

Honestly, I quite like the way this looks. But here's another idea: Since the current Wiki-theme is emphasizing the Square-created characters so heavily and there's no way to persuade me to not fight against the usage of the Xehanort images, why not just use a Disney character, like Mickey or Yen Sid, who is still relevant but belongs to neither category? Even a plain old Moogle would suffice... We seem to be using these images simply because they're "unique" in comparison to the same, dry, official ones, why not just use characters who would stand out against the surplus of Square's? - 00:49, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * At least in my view, the reason these two are most appropriate is:


 * 1) Unlike the other suggestions, these characters are posed to specifically highlight and draw attention to the welcome notice. They point the viewer to it, rather than just being fluff for hte sake of fluff.
 * 2) It creates some parity for the already heavily protagonist-based layout.
 * 3) Without getting into too many spoilers, the current game (and saga) revolves almost totally around these characters and their actions. If we could replace Terra-Xehanort with Young Xehanort in a similar pose, that would be slightly more ideal.
 * 4) Using these images instead of Disney or Final Fantasy images highlights the franchise's ever-increasing focus on its own content and characters in favor of just crossovers, and on a second level, highlights our own community's amazing efforts and creations.
 * 5) Although we have a policy of using official material on the articles, this is not one of the articles. This is our main page, whose primary purpose is to serve as our face and advertisement, to both direct readers to the articles and to, well, peacock. That's why half the page is various "featured" sections.

ENX, I certainly understand if you don't like the specific layout, characters used, poses, anything aesthetic about it, but I don't think that the issue of them being unofficial is truly a fault in this context. 03:52, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me respond to your words accordingly:


 * Using two images really squeezes the text of the welcome notice in a way I find discomforting. I see no reason to keep Terra-Xehanort if I'm forced to live with Xehanort, but Young Xehanort cannot be added as a replacement to Terra-Xehanort, or else one of the images would be pointing away from the welcome notice, due to the way both characters are facing the left side of the page. I see no reason why we could not just use Young Xehanort, since we could say he's holding his hand out "towards the welcome notice," and it's offical material. Not to mention it'd loosen up the text in the welcome notice a bit. Right now, the images we're using may as well just be fluff used simply because they're fluff on the grounds that they're not official. Not to mention the poses are rather corny in my opinion.
 * I never agreed with the Wiki's merging Xehanort and Terra-Xehanort together with Terra-Xehanort being the main article (may be the source of some of my discomfort in terms of this). I saw the logic behind it, but I never supported/agreed with it, the same way I never supported/agreed with changing "Xehanort's Heartless" to "Ansem, Seeker of Darkness" or "Lingering Sentiment" to "Lingering Will." But I digress. The point is, I'm very unhappy with the usage of Terra-Xehanort, since that was only a Birth by Sleep-relevant character. If you want something that applies to the whole series, than we may as well use characters who appear in the whole series or change the Wiki-theme to be relevant to the entire series rather than a single game. Thus I still suggest using the Young Xehanort render alone. This way, he's relevant to the Wiki-theme and still serves the same purpose as the Terra-Xehanort and Xehanort renders.
 * Young Xehanort is, in essence, the main antagonist of KH3D, thus it would emphasize him as such. The fact he's an antagonist in and of himself contrasts the protagonist-heavy Wiki-theme, which, may I point out, uses KH3D protagonists! I've always been big on consistency, especially in terms of aesthetics, so using Young Xehanort would really ease my present discomfort, and it serves as a fair compromise in my opinion.
 * Young Xehanort, again, accomplishes the same things alone as the two Xehanort renders: he emphasizes "the series' ever-increasing focus on its own content." I in no way deny that the community is skilled and creative, but you're basically saying we're all in favor of using fanart, which is all these renders are. I could see the Keyhole doing something like this, but since this is a more official site where we emphasize the official content and enforce its usage so heavily, this creates a discomforting contradiction. A user page is where the community's skill and creativity should be featured, and no where else. Not to mention using the main page to emphasize the community's more creative side and "skill" strikes me as a bit snobbish and conceited.
 * True, this is not one of the articles, but the main page is the "first impression" our readers/visitors get of our site. We want to "advertise" that we're serious about the Kingdom Hearts series and promise reliable, official content right from the very get-go. The usage of these images contradicts everything we stand for in my opinion, and quite honestly, I wouldn't want to delve deeper into a site that is so unprofessional with its images and how they're handled. You may as well cover the entire main page in fanart and unofficial content. I'm not buying your "various featured sections" argument, either, simply on the grounds that we use these sections to "advertise" official content, for the most part.


 * I truly do not mean to be as antagonistic or difficult as I seem to be coming across with all of this. I truly hope we can reach some sort of middle-ground. - 14:14, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

It's just two pictures. Nothing big. 14:26, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Young Xehanort cannot be added as a replacement to Terra-Xehanort, or else one of the images would be pointing away from the welcome notice...
 * If we could replace Terra-Xehanort with Young Xehanort in a similar pose, that would be slightly more ideal.
 * maggosh 14:41, 16 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Y'know, maggosh, we could simply mirror Young Xehanort's image... 19:04, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

For God's sake, why do we need the images in the first place?! Aesthetically speaking, they're an eyesore, and we've gotten by for so long without them that it hardly seems necessary to add them.
 * ENX, the main page is already defined by our community creating a window into the KH universe. It's a simple fact that Square Enix hasn't produced a ton of "official art/text/coding for introducing the series to readers of a wiki", so a lot of creating that window is our own work (and seriously, it is really stretching it to call these fanart). We can't advertise that we're serious about the work if all we're doing is reposting the text and images from the games, instead of organizing them into some legible, cohesive body.
 * "Fluff" and "unofficial" are completely unrelated. As I said earlier, these images have a very specific purpose: they point the reader's eye towards the welcome message. They are not simply there for decoration. You're trying to say that, basically, a turn lane sign is equivalent to the flowers by the side of the road.
 * I totally agree with a Young Xehanort image, if we can produce one that has the same "traffic sign" function (cloaked or uncloaked). As for the relevance of these Xehanort images...I didn't want to spoil KH3D too much, but it's a 99% chance these "two" characters showed up in KH3D, and in the end the game is explicitly about "forms of Xehanort".192.249.47.177 19:36, 16 April 2012 (UTC)


 * While the renders may come directly from the coding of a Square Enix game, they are the work of one user, and one user only, a fan-created rendition of offical material. It's not the work of the community. Again, it's something a user would host on his or her page and say "Look what I made!" Sounds like fanart to me. Flaunting our "community"'s skill comes across as snobbish and conceited, a bad first impression of our Wiki on the so-called audience you seem to think these images are capable of attracting. Using what Square has provided for us (you really think they give a damn about a Wiki?) is not simply "copy/pasting" it. It's using it to our advantage. The point is, we're the unofficial "official" Kingdom Hearts Wiki. Ergo, it makes more sense to emphasize the usage of official material.
 * My standpoint on the situation is simply this: Unless you know that the images are intended to draw one's attention to the welcome notice, they may as well be fluff added just for decorative purposes. The "turn lane sign and flowers by the side of the road" are the same when all the flowers do is make the turn lane sign look nice. If you actually want to emphasize the turn lane sign, then change the bloody sign itself! Don't just plant more flowers, because that's what sticks out. The flowers. Not the sign. Thus the images are fluff, and unofficial fluff at that (that's why I said I'd prefer official fluff over unofficial). Honestly, how many times do you see a "Welcome to " sign and say "Ooo, what a pretty sign?" Plain and simple: You don't! You compliment the pretty flowers or shrubbery growing around the sign, if you don't completely ignore the sign altogether, which most people do. The images have and adverse effect, at least for me: they draw all my attention to themselves, and not the welcome notice as intended.
 * There is no appearance of Terra-Xehanort at all in KH3D, and the most you ever see of Xehanort is his hand. If you're trying to suggest relevance to KH3D and the whole "forms of Xehanort" thing without spoiling the game, then use forms with more prominence, like Ansem and Xemnas, as I suggested. If you must used a posed T-render, I see no reason why one could not be produced.

And that's that. Tune in next week when "Battle of the Main Page Xehanort Renders" continues >_> - 22:16, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

I hate to be the one pointing this out, but I believe that the reason behind them being an "eyesore" to you, ENX, is due to your small screen resolution and web browser. IE improperly wraps the text, based upon the images provided. Even in my strange screen resolution (1366x786), the main page looks quite good. I see no problems.  04:16, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, how about we use this then? If everyone is okay with it, that is. 06:31, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Not a big fan of that big space between the images and the logo, but I'll live with it. Yes, yes, YES!!! - 13:47, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * I still like the Xehanort images better. They diversify the theme and show off our community.  67.52.57.114 16:55, 17 April 2012 (UTC)
 * We could always make a version with KH3D Antagonists, this is just the first draft, with the protagonists. 01:07, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

I just wish there was a way to move the "Featured" sections down without totally destroying the page so we could get Sora to the right far enough where we could fight "Kingdom Hearts Wiki" between him and Riku (so they're framing the logo), and then have the welcome notice directly beneath the images. But other than that, I'm really liking this, Erry! - 19:27, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

OR we could actually finish remodeling the main page as opposed to slightly changing the aesthetics. 20:31, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

Enemy sorting
Why are the pages for the different types of enemies inconsistent as to how the enemies are sorted? The Heartless are sorted by type of enemy (like all of the Red Nocturne, Yellow Opera, Green Requiem type enemies together), the Nobodies appear to be sorted by when they appear in the game, and the Dream Eaters are in alphabetical order.

Shouldn't they all be sorted in a uniform fashion? 131.128.130.106 18:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)
 * They're supposed to be supported roughly by their order in the Journals, although there's a bit of winging it for the Heartless. If the Nobodies and Unversed are out of whack, they need to be fixed. Dream Eaters are currently all-alphabetical because we don't have a source for the Journal order yet. 00:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

SEIWA update!
When someone gets a chance, please update the SEIWA box and post news, we have a new member! Bud0011 23:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Bud0011 01:55, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
 * You're welcome! Uxie   Lover   1994  03:22, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

3D Spoiler Tag
So it has been more than two weeks, shouldn't we be removing the spoiler tags by now? --15:37, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, if you feel like it's time then why don't you start doing that? 15:56, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll get started right away --16:05, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Change Style and Format?
So, with the Kingdom Hearts 3D [Dream Drop Distance] excitement dying down and excitement for KH1.5HD building up, I think we should update the site's style and main page. Either with a 10th Anniversary theme or a KH1.5HD theme, or even a neutral style. And we could get the ball rolling on any format changes to the main page that have been agreed on. What do you guys think? KeybladeSpyMaster (talk) 06:08, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm cool with either one. The KH Wiki always has the best designs. :)-- 18:07, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I would suggest moving this to the forums, so that it can be stickied if there is enough interest.  19:09, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok, I'm kind of new here, so how do I do that? KeybladeSpyMaster (talk) 04:55, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Never mind, I can see that it's already been done. KeybladeSpyMaster (talk) 03:19, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

Redirects...
Why do all of the pages on this wiki have SOOOO many redirects? It makes it very difficult to use the back button... ToaJuaraevo01 (talk) 17:00, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Redirects does not effect the back button in any way and redirects allow easy access to other pages. 17:47, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * To make it easier for people to find what they're searching for. Just use the listed back button instead of a single click, or open new tabs. 04:24, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

No, when I hold the back button on my browser, and the recent list comes up, this is what I see: Redirect Redirect Redirect Redirect Redirect...

It's like a redirect of a redirect of a redirect. ToaJuaraevo01 (talk) 19:18, 12 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Instead of complaining about it and essentially wasting our time why don't you tell us what the page is so we can fix it? 01:39, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Guard Bonus is the only page that does that on this wiki. It's fixed now. 02:11, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

ALL OF THEM! ToaJuaraevo01 (talk) 16:36, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't have that problem. Perhaps it's the type of window you're using (e.g: Google Chrome).-- 17:46, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I am using Internet Explorer. ToaJuaraevo01 (talk) 12:06, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

And there's your answer. I used IE, too, before I used Google Chrome. I remember that the back button was faulty on IE.-- 21:51, 25 February 2013 (UTC)

Canon
Which versions are considered canon? I am getting confused, what with all the originals and the RE:'s and "Final Mixes". 18:44, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * All the REs and Final Mixes are considered canon, as well as the full games and HD Remix 18:45, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The most recent versions of each game are considered canon, supplemented by the novels. 02:32, 12 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Although KHX isn't canon, as I've heard. 06:12, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

OK, thank you :) 15:05, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Theme

 * It's not even the release date. It's that we have no materials to switch up the themes. Since I manned the KH HD 1.5 theme, and partially, the KH3D theme, we haven't had any material for 2.5 (Boxart, to use in the logo, argyle-like pattern for the background.), pretty much everything we know is what colors we'll be using. 09:42, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Technical Difficulties
The site went down the other for a little bit and was messing up then...I haven't ran across any problems on my end...yet. Anything specific on what problems you're seeing? 21:30, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

Changing the characters in front
I haven't got much time to type this out, but I was wondering... We have the players' avatar parts in here, and colour palettes for their hair and skin and stuff. I wonder if we could design some players for the front page? Is it possible to turn this thing into a contest of sorts, or would it be too complicated?

Obviously Ephemera and his Chirithy have to appear somewhere there as well. TRS NX  08:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * We could have Ephemera, Chirithy and the robed figure as a trio on one side and on the other side, we could have Players. Rather than designing some Players specifically for the magazine, we could ask the wiki's KHX-playing editors to send a screenshot of their Players and we can crop it out for the main page. 11:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why don't we use some of the Foretellers? 11:06, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I considered that too, but we'd only have three of five Foretellers so some Unions might feel left out. Are there any "main" Unions or are they all on an equal standing to each other? 11:08, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Why not three Foretellers on one side and the other two + Ephemera/Chirithy/Unknown on the other? 11:10, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * As for designing new players for the front page: Let's just say it's not impossible but without deeper understanding about flash and the game's coding it would be a very complicated puzzle with hundreds of pieces that can change their sizes and orientations. -- 12:11, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't thinking so much about Flash or the game's coding (let's be honest, something like this would run from ActionScript, HTML5 or something of equal power, and could easily be ported to mobile devices). What I was thinking of, instead, was on these lines:

Have someone with Photoshop, use the colour palettes available here to modify skin, eyes and hair, and then match the costumes to the respective body. There, character is made! And besides, how gaily decorated a character is would depend on in-game purchases, something that not all of us could do. We stick with stuff that is readily available to us so as not to flout laws. TRS NX  12:16, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * You're right, it's not that that complicated to change the hair or skin color but the costumes themselves are not made of one piece that is simply pasted over the body but every part (hat, boots, upper body etc.) consists of many different shapes, the images I uploaded here are just the preview pictures of the avatar menu not the whole costumes. Maybe I don't understand how you would change the costumes though. -- 13:32, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

There's this picture from KHInsider; wonder if we could use the avatars here? TRS NX  16:14, 6 September 2015 (UTC) http://images.khinsider.com/KINGDOM%20HEARTS%20X/Screenshots/Unchained%20x%20E3/hole_-_avatar.jpg

Honestly, I don't think we should use random people's avatars (it feels a bit plagiarise-y). How about we use all five Foretellers and have three Foretellers + Chirithy on one side and two Foretellers + Ephemera on the other side? That excludes the robed figure, but he's already in the logo and he's not even a named character anyway. It also does mean that there's four characters on one side but Chirithy is teensy so it shouldn't look cluttered. 17:28, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with FM. We can't just go and use other people's avatars, and I'm sure nobody would mind having four (or three-and-a-half) characters on one side. 17:35, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Hang on, hang on, hang on: Plagiarise-y? The parts are predominantly from within Kingdom Hearts for crying out loud. Sure, there are some original-looking clothes, but then there are going to be people dressed up as Shiki and Neku and goodness knows who else.

I suppose if we created our own avatars, that'd work, but then someone else would complain that we "stole" their idea, when in actual fact, EVERYTHING COMES FROM SODDING SQUARE ENIX AND DISNEY. If this was Animal Crossing, where we could sew our actual own patterns on to dresses, then I'd be worried about plagiarism. Also, I would like to see Unchained X's terms and conditions; surely there have to be some around. There has to be a EULA for us to read, to see just how the avatars can be used etc. TRS <font color="#444444">NX  17:56, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't really see it as plagiarism, but if I were playing the game, I would create a unique (or as unique as possible) avatar, and it would be weird to see the exact same avatar on our Main Page. 18:00, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * It's definitely legal to do, just maybe not in good taste. We could use our own avatars (which is why I proposed we use avatars of KHWikians who play the game) but I think it does have more sense to have the Foretellers on there. They're really plot-essential. 18:04, 6 September 2015 (UTC)
 * These are not images of random avatars but promotional material by SquareEnix to display the new (and old) costumes. If we wanted to use the Foretellers the Clocktower scene would probably fitting, I uploaded it without background and in higher resolution here. It would also be possible to construct a similiar image with their Keyblades if needed. -- 18:47, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Gathering Avatars
Right now, I am scouring the Net for KHX avatars displayed on Famitsu and KHInsider news articles. I'll also be separating those from people who are playing KHX for KHInsider and who have uploaded their own avatars. Will share them once I've done all I can; I'd like to know what you folks think about what I'm about to gather and show. <font color="#222222">TRS <font color="#444444">NX  17:01, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

EDIT 17:07, 6 September 2015 (UTC): Lighter green BG = stuff from Famitsu and KHInsider news articles. Darker green BG = stuff from KHInsider users who are currently playing KHUX. <font color="#222222">TRS <font color="#444444">NX 

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo23/Troisnyx/From%20news%20articles_zpsrbaqdubg.png

http://i358.photobucket.com/albums/oo23/Troisnyx/From%20KHInsider%20users_zpsysflxvtx.png

EDIT 17:52, 6 September 2015 (UTC): Never mind, let's forget this section even existed. <font color="#222222">TRS <font color="#444444">NX 

Renewed Discussion
I would like to renew the discussion of new character decals for use on the main page. I have a few ideas: Thoughts? - 12:23, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * The Foretellers on one side. Ephemera, Skuld, and the Nightmare Chirithy on the other.
 * This one requires an update to the logo, I feel, to avoid redundancy (I personally don't like the idea of Ephemera appearing both on the main page and in the logo). What if we replaced Ephemera with the Player and alternated back-and-forth between male and female versions, kind of like we did with the various logos for our KHIIHD theme?
 * Maybe in place of the Foretellers, we could use the symbols of each Union (the Stations of Awakening)?
 * The KHX 1st Anniversary character artwork (extracted) on the left. The KHX 2nd Anniversary character artwork (extracted) on the right.
 * I don't really have any thoughts on the actual plan, but try to keep spoilers to a minimum. I don't play KHUX so I don't know if the existence of those characters are spoilery things or not, but it's just a reminder. 18:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * In my opinion, if Ephemera can be in the logo, he can be on the main page. - 19:32, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I decided to go with the KHX 1st and 2nd Anniversary artwork because of the issues we were having with the Foretellers, Player avatars, and "spoiler-y" characters like Skuld and Ephemera. Here is what I came up with:

http://s9.postimg.org/ljf8av6r3/Screen_Shot_2016_04_13_at_4_57_27_PM.png
 * Thoughts? I'd say it looks pretty good! - 21:03, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Wow, it looks great! :D-- 21:24, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks! The only thing that annoys me are the two Chirithys :P A few more supporting votes, and I'll consider this green-lighted and update the main page accordingly. - 21:33, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

It looks amazing! Really nicely done! (What is Riku wearing? O_o) 21:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks! I believe it's supposed to be Goofy's outfit :P Shall I update the main page, then? - 21:46, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * No, it's his normal KH1 outfit. The lighting in the picture just makes it look like it's colored differently. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 23:27, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * It actually is supposed to reflect Goofy's. The artwork posted by Nomura shows a Goofy hat and ears doodled on Riku. - 23:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Cute. Thank you so much ENX!! It looks amazing I am so happy the main page looks centered again :') 23:36, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
 * You're welcome, ANX. I'm happy to see it this way again, too! - 00:59, 14 April 2016 (UTC)


 * Kairi's is supposed to be Donald, too. 01:29, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Color Block
@Anyone who's good at coding: Can someone fix the Cleanup of the Month so that it is the correct color? I attempted to replicate the format of the others with this box but I failed and did not save my changes. Thanks! 15:35, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixed it! 15:50, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you, TSH, you're my HERO. is shot Do you think you can fix the Mirage Arena headline as well? It seems to be a white bg only on RoundedBlue. (I don't know why). 16:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid I can't. I have no idea why it is not colored green and especially why only in RoundedBlue. Btw, it also happens to the SEIWA wiki links.
 * EDIT: I think it has something to do with the tables that those templates use. 16:55, 7 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Bah humbug! I don't understand any of those tables! Thanks for your help! 18:04, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

A Couple Pages Need To Be Deleted
These two pages need to be deleted: χ (Disambiguation) and Twig. I stumbled across the first one that needs to be deleted. There's already a χ (disambiguation), with the lower case "d", so there's no need for the one with the capital "D". The second one I made as a redirect for Undead Pirate because on that page, it said one of the pirates names is "Twig." Turns out it was spelled incorrectly and it's actually "Twigg" (which I corrected). So since Twig is the incorrect spelling, the page should be deleted. Thank you! --Elfdemon (talk) 00:05, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
 * We actually have a page for deletions here. 05:07, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Oh, okay thanks. --Elfdemon (talk) 05:49, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Game portal gradients broken on Firefox
Just an FYI, the gradient background on game portal template (the timeline of games) doesn't show up on Firefox. It works in Chrome and Edge, per my test, but not Firefox. 146.151.94.171 16:28, 23 April 2016 (UTC)

Concert blurb
http://www.khinsider.com/news/SPOILERS-A-special-conversation-before-KINGDOM-HEARTS-0-2-Birth-By-Sleep-revealed-during-First-Breath-concert-6805

What are we doing with this, if anything? 16:12, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Little blurb in the Trinity Archive box, maybe? 16:45, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Wasn't it just something Nomura did for fun for the fans - you know, as a way to say "thank you for attending"? So, it's not really canon, right? If that's the case, then there really isn't anything to do with it besides put in the TA.-- 21:43, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if it's canon or not. He just said it isn't in the game, but that doesn't mean it's non-canon. 12:11, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, that is true. It looks like an anonymous user already added the scene in Naminé's and the Lingering Will's pages, though.-- 19:34, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

This needs to be covered
http://www.khinsider.com/news/Kingdom-Hearts-Stain-Glass-Clock-Exhibition-Opens-at-Shinjuku-Station-on-Jan-9th-8021
 * A clock? --Ignis (talk) 00:30, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * The Dive to the Heart Stations artwork on the clocks. Did you click the link or just read it? Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 05:08, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * My question stands. A clock?  Why do we need to cover a bunch of pointless merchandising?  --Ignis (talk) 19:33, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Because it's OFFICIAL Dive to the Heart artwork. They may not be the characters' canon Stations, but it's still artwork, which we do cover. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:48, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * But we've already covered all the artwork present here. It's the same stuff just cropped and pasted over stained glass patterns.  Anyone can do that with five minutes and a copy of photoshop.  --Ignis (talk) 17:41, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Dude, what part of OFFICIAL ARTWORK are you NOT getting? So what if the foreground character artwork is reused, the Station artwork in the background is the important part. Just look at Xion's, hers strangely doesn't feature Roxas. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * You're starting to fucking bug me now. Don't do that.  --Ignis (talk) 07:47, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I disagree, the "new" Dive to the Heart stations are mere collages of already existing artwork and hardly canon when the central characters don't even have their eyes closed. -- 07:40, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I second this. It's just random merchandise.  --Ignis (talk) 19:36, 8 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Hm, why is it called a "memorial" clock when apparently nobody died? Semantics aside, it's a grandiose ad campaign in a major public area – I assume, Kryten, that you want this in the Trinity Archives? This is a pretty unique case, we haven't exactly set a precedent for running this kind of story on the main page before. Right now, I'm against it, but I'm curious as to why you'd like it featured, Kryten. 05:13, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I wanted this covered as an actual article, because it's an official Kingdom Hearts production. We cover merch already, I'm not clear why this is different. 15:19, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * According to the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, a "memorial" is "something, especially a structure, established to remind people of a person or event". Not necessarily in relation to someone dead. There is a Memorial Ultimania for the series, remember?. Rex Ronald Rilander (talk) 04:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Not really? Barely?  I mean, we've covered the soundtracks, which are obviously directly tied to the games, the manga and the trading card game - remember that one lol? - but our stuff on merchandise is really super light.  I mean, look at the acrylic stands.  Those actually feature new artwork by Nomura, yet we didn't bother with them at all.  --Ignis (talk) 17:41, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * To be fair, we have an article for The Sceptre and the Kingdom, a non-canon promotional comic written and illustrated by non-Square personnel. This is an officially sanctioned promotion, we've got articles for things even more loosely related to KH. 21:51, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Anime News Network did an article about it, just to let you guys know.-- 22:50, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Our scope includes all that merch. Not having an article about it yet is not the same as consensus that we should not have one. 23:20, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Well, it's ultimately your call lol. If you feel it's important enough, then go right ahead and make a page on it.  Me personally though, this just falls a wee bit into the insignificant territory though - it's just clocks that reuse the same stock artwork, not much different from the million and one...I dunno, Pink Floyd clocks!  The only difference is that these are official SE merch.  --Ignis (talk) 09:04, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

KHUX
Unchained X is under the "Re-releases and remakes" section of the home page, but we now know that it's actually a sequel to KHX that takes place in the Unchained realm, so shouldn't it be put under the "Timeline of the Kingdom Hearts series" section? --76.102.24.151 08:32, 15 January 2017 (UTC)
 * What is the source, by the way? -- 17:38, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Nomura, actually. I definitely do recall him calling it a sequel, but I can't recall which interview it was.  Could be a mistranslation though - KH13 doesn't have the world's most reliable translators.  That said, even IF it is a sequel, it still doesn't entirely change its status as a remake of the browser game, since it adapts it beat by beat until it passes by it.  It's pretty difficult to classify, so, really, typical Nomura nonsense lol.  --Ignis (talk) 22:51, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it took me a while to find it. Nomura: Ephemer and Skuld are becoming considerably more important in the second season of KH Unchained X. Although the story of KHX (PC) has concluded, the story of Unchained Chi exists in another dimension. The relationship around that will be told in the second season, so please wait for the next report. --76.102.24.151 17:10, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Back Cover and the Timeline
Since the story of Back Cover stretches back further and ends before KHχ, shouldn't it be listed first on the timeline? Bob4894 (talk) 04:29, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. 15:43, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Do flashbacks count, though? --Ignis (talk) 16:56, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Normally I would say no, but the flashbacks are like half of the movie. And since it still ends before I still think it should be listed first. Bob4894 (talk) 14:47, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Honestly, it wasn't clear to me if they were actually being portrayed as flashbacks, or just the timeline rewinding for each new chapter. The feeling that I got was more like each Case was like a step in a staircase -- overlapping the timeline of the previous case but just a wee bit shifted forward at the beginning and end each time. 14:51, 7 February 2017 (UTC)
 * That's true, it basically zigziags back and forth throughout the story. Either way though, I think it should be listed before χ for the ending alone. The same idea as CoM going before 358. Bob4894 (talk) 00:51, 8 February 2017 (UTC)