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| I'm sorry, I really meant Demi. Zantetsuken, Trinity Limit, and all Gravity attacks deal the same percentage-based Demi damage, Zantetsuken and Trinity Limit just have a percentage that's higher than 100%. This explains why enemies who are immune to Gravity magic are also immune to Zantetsuken. | | I'm sorry, I really meant Demi. Zantetsuken, Trinity Limit, and all Gravity attacks deal the same percentage-based Demi damage, Zantetsuken and Trinity Limit just have a percentage that's higher than 100%. This explains why enemies who are immune to Gravity magic are also immune to Zantetsuken. |
| {{User:Pennsylvania Jones}} | | {{User:Pennsylvania Jones}} |
| :Okay, but my question is if we can demonstrate via an official source that the game actually treats resistances to demi as resistances to zantetsuken across the board, or whether they're treated as separate attributes that have a high correlation. Do you have a source for that claim, or is it just based on zantetsuken dealing percentage damage?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:26, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
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| ::I think the only way to confirm something like that is to dig into the game's code. Extremely technical stuff like that is never discussed by the developers unless it's an issue of game balance, which is almost always reserved for just multiplayer games. --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 21:17, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
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| :::If the KH1 damage/effect types listed here on this Wiki are from the Ultimania, then there are eight of them, and ONLY eight of them in KH1: Physical, Fire, Blizzard, Thunder, Demi, Stop, Stun, and "Other" (which, given that Other always has a single value, is just a single type that doesn't fit the other categories). Of these, only Demi deals in percentage damage values. Demi is also the only type of damage that the [[Neoshadow]] is completely immune to; not to mention that the Unknown boss gets stunned by Gravity magic, Gravity Break, and Zantetsuken. I don't have any official sources that exactly say "Zantetsuken is Gravity/Demi-type in KH1FM", but at this point I see no reason to believe, based on what we know about the mechanics of the KH1 engine, that Zantetsuken is anything other than this particular damage type. {{User:Pennsylvania Jones}}
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| ::::But Demi technically lops off percentages off the ''current'' value - or it's supposed to. If the enemy has 1500 HP, Demi lops off 25% off the 1500 - that's 375 damage. If the target has 1000 HP, demi does again %25 of that 1000 - that's 250 damage. Hence, the smaller the enemy HP, the less damage Gravity does. However, in KH1FM when fighting Xemnas, Gravity attacks do ''fixed'' damage. I can't speak in numerical values since...you know, the game doesn't display them, but it always takes off the same sized chunk of HP. That's why I think we need to look into the game code. It's obvious it isn't as cut and dry as it seems. --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 01:02, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
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| :::::As far as I can tell, the reason Gravity attacks deal fixed damage in the Xemnas fight is because Xemnas reduces the damage of those attacks by so much that they're reduced to the bare minimum amount of damage that Sora's allowed to deal to an enemy—which is always the same no matter what attack Sora uses—hence the fixed value.[[User:Pennsylvania Jones|Pennsylvania Jones]] ([[User talk:Pennsylvania Jones|talk]]) 01:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
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| ::::::It's not the bare minimum since it deals more damage to him than any other magic - spamming Graviga is pretty much a bread and butter strategy against him ''because'' it deals a shitload of damage. Using it against an Invisible, for example, deals nowhere close as much damage. And there's the fact that ''fixed damage'' in any ''way'' renders the attack ''not'' Demi. I think we need to stop applying Final Fantasy logic here because Kingdom Hearts obviously doesn't play by the same rules, even if some names are the same. --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 07:30, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
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| :::::::I do think Final Fantasy logic applies here, actually. Use Zantetsuken against enemies like [[Behemoth]] (with a Gravity multiplier of x0.03), and [[Cloud]] and [[Leon]] (who both have a Gravity multiplier of x0.04), and in all three of those cases, Zantetsuken will do less and less damage the more you chip away at them, and it's not a subtle effect at all. It takes off huge chunks of HP when they're close to full health, and next to nothing when they're on their last legs. It's for this reason that I'm certain that Zantetsuken is a Gravity attack in the vein of Final Fantasy's Demi attacks. It wouldn't behave that way if it wasn't. As for [[Xemnas]], I admit that my previous reply was pulled out of my rear end due to not having the specifics of the battle fresh in my mind. I watched a video of the 1.5 KH1FM Xemnas fight on Youtube just now—this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ugBKHOQV3Q —and found that when Sora uses Graviga on him, it does deal consistently heavy damage, more damage than Xemnas' x0.01 gravity multiplier should allow under normal circumstances. If Donald casts Graviga, however, it's the bare minimum amount. And Donald's MP in the video is ''higher'' than Sora's: 15 vs 13. With this in mind, I'll revise one of my previous statements: I believe minimum damage ''generally'' stays the same no matter what attack is used, but I also think that there's an exception system for bosses in place that alters the minimum damage of certain attacks. It's a rather convenient explanation, I know, but that would also explain how EXP Zero makes Sora's basic combos deal more damage in certain boss fights. But, of course, I can't prove that this is the case, it's just what I can come up with based on these observations. I'm not trying to dismiss the idea that we need to look at the game's data to see what's what for absolute certain, not at all. I'm just making speculation based on what we ''do'' know for absolute certain. If I came off as condescending, then I humbly apologise. (Also sorry for the wall of text...)[[User:Pennsylvania Jones|Pennsylvania Jones]] ([[User talk:Pennsylvania Jones|talk]]) 02:56, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
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| ::The ultimania for the original KH calls the attribute "割合攻撃" (Proportion Attacks), so I'm okay with saying it's the same attribute. The Piggyback Guide calls them "% Attacks", while the Bradygames uses "Gravity", so -- Ultimania says Zantetsuken deals % damage, then for KH1's purposes, it is a Gravity-attribute attack. I've started [[Gravity (element)]] based on this clarification of the system, and we need to confirm that the Ultimania says that Trinity Limit counts.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 22:09, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
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| == Slapshot == | | == Slapshot == |
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| It sounds like you're saying that Slapshot replaces the standard thrust as a faster attack?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:14, 6 January 2017 (UTC) | | It sounds like you're saying that Slapshot replaces the standard thrust as a faster attack?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:14, 6 January 2017 (UTC) |
| :I can pretty much back this up. It's always been the case since vanilla KH2. --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 03:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC) | | :I can pretty much back this up. It's always been the case since vanilla KH2. --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 03:04, 6 January 2017 (UTC) |
| ::I don't really want to boil it down to "this attack replaces that attack" as that's really not how combos in this game work. But when Sora's right up next to an opponent and there aren't any other targets surrounding him, then yes, Slapshot does, essentially, replace the standard thrust as a faster attack.[[User:Pennsylvania Jones|Pennsylvania Jones]] ([[User talk:Pennsylvania Jones|talk]]) 22:33, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
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| :::Are there any other instances in which Slapshot can be used?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 23:31, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
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| ::::Not that I'm aware of.[[User:Pennsylvania Jones|Pennsylvania Jones]] ([[User talk:Pennsylvania Jones|talk]]) 01:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
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| :::::I've edited the page to have more brevity and communicate the gist, that it replaces the slower thrust.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 22:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)
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| == Kurt Zisa ==
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| Can you put up a scan for the ultimania page? Some of the romaji doesn't make sense.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
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| :https://imgur.com/a/euJnV[[User_talk:Pennsylvania_Jones|—Pennsylvania Jones]] 20:09, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
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| ::Okay, I cleaned it up a bit. That scan should be moved to imgur and linked on the [[Talk:Ultimania]] page. Hopefully someone can come through and table-ize the page. Please see [[Game:Eraqus]] or [[Game:Sephiroth]] for examples of how the section should be improved.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 22:03, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
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