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| ==Update 2== | | ==Update 2== |
| With KrytenKoro leaving the KHWiki and Neumannz being MIA for a year now, I think the time is as good as any to talk about staff and revising it. The community has talked about this in the past, but since we're so busy in RL and updating articles on the mainspace, we never gotten quite to it. While I wanted to wait until it was properly discussed, Porplemontage promoted me to bcrat. From our existing pool of active users/staff members, I think it's time for the community to reelect new staff members since so many users are inactive. I've been mean to bring this up, but as KeybladeSpyMaster was also an admin before leaving due to RL circumstances, and seeing as KSM has returned and has been consistently editing since his return and his excellent conduct, I've been meaning to request that he'll be reinstated as an admin.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 23:08, 1 February 2018 (UTC) | | With KrytenKoro leaving the KHWiki and Neumannz being MIA for a year now, I think the time is as good as any to talk about staff and revising it. The community has talked about this in the past, but since we're so busy in RL and updating articles on the mainspace, we never gotten quite to it. While I wanted to wait until it was properly discussed, Porplemontage promoted me to bcrat. From our existing pool of active users/staff members, I think it's time for the community to reelect new staff members since so many users are inactive. I've been mean to bring this up, but as KeybladeSpyMaster was also an admin before leaving due to RL circumstances, and seeing as KSM has returned and has been consistently editing since his return and his excellent conduct, I've been meaning to request that he'll be reinstated as an admin.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 23:08, 1 February 2018 (UTC) |
| :I agree that we should consider new staff elections. I won't count on me, because that'll be up to everyone else, but we definitely need people that will be here or can be here if needed. If we're considering an additional bureaucrat (I think we should regardless of whether or not Neumannz chooses to stay as one), I would suggest TheSilentHero, who has done excellent work on this wiki and has especially helped fight some users who think spamming or sockpuppetry is okay. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 01:02, 2 February 2018 (UTC) | | :I agree that we should consider new staff elections. I won't count on me, because that'll be up to everyone else, but we definitely need people that will be here or can be here if needed. If we're considering an additional bureaucrat (I think we should regardless of whether or not Neumannz chooses to stay as one), I would suggest TheSilentHero, who has done excellent work on this wiki and has especially helped fight some users who think spamming or sockpuppetry is okay. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 01:02, 2 February 2018 (UTC) |
| :'''EDIT:''' Also, may I suggest once this discussion is over, that we archive this talk page. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} | | :'''EDIT:''' Also, may I suggest once this discussion is over, that we archive this talk page. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} |
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| :Until Neumannz gets back, I say we leave his position/status alone. This is both formality and being polite. In regards to nominations: Personally, I thought that KSM was already an admin...Definitely up for having KSM and Shard move up to admin status. B-crat, I think any of the three [Hero, KSM, Shard] deserve it. Obviously three are perhaps excessive, but these guys seriously deserve and could use it. Just to clear the air, is this solely for admin/b-crat positions or are we revamping the mod spots as well? {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 02:06, 3 February 2018 (UTC) | | :Until Neumannz gets back, I say we leave his position/status alone. This is both formality and being polite. In regards to nominations: Personally, I thought that KSM was already an admin...Definitely up for having KSM and Shard move up to admin status. B-crat, I think any of the three [Hero, KSM, Shard] deserve it. Obviously three are perhaps excessive, but these guys seriously deserve and could use it. Just to clear the air, is this solely for admin/b-crat positions or are we revamping the mod spots as well? {{User:Xion4ever/Sig}} 02:06, 3 February 2018 (UTC) |
| ::::::KSM was an admin before leaving the KHWiki temporarily due to RL circumstances. He came back recently and began contributing on a daily basis, but no proposal was made to reinstate him as admin until the topic was brought up. THS and SoT are both admins, as well. Again, I don't know if three bracts are necessary. A bcrat and an admin aren't that different from each other, and the only that really distinguish them is the a bcrat can change user rights, something we needed since so many of staff members are MIA. That being said, I'm going to contact Neumz about this discussion. Over a year is a long time to be off the KHWiki, I think. We should also discuss the mods, as well. Out of the four, I typically see Chainoffire and TheFifteenthMember the most in the RC, but I don't see Chitalian8 around very much, though I see him from time to time. I haven't seen Troisnyxetienne in a while.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:20, 3 February 2018 (UTC) | | ::::::KSM was an admin before leaving the KHWiki temporarily due to RL circumstances. He came back recently and began contributing on a daily basis, but no proposal was made to reinstate him as admin until the topic was brought up. THS and SoT are both admins, as well. Again, I don't know if three bracts are necessary. A bcrat and an admin aren't that different from each other, and the only that really distinguish them is the a bcrat can change user rights, something we needed since so many of staff members are MIA. That being said, I'm going to contact Neumz about this discussion. Over a year is a long time to be off the KHWiki, I think. We should also discuss the mods, as well. Out of the four, I typically see Chainoffire and TheFifteenthMember the most in the RC, but I don't see Chitalian8 around very much, though I see him from time to time. I haven't seen Troisnyxetienne in a while.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:20, 3 February 2018 (UTC) |
| :::::::NinjaShiek is right on potentially removing Neumannz. Our [[KHWiki:Staff policy|Staff Policy]] says, "'''Undeclared Inactivity''' is the scenario under which a staff member leaves or does not edit for an extended period of time (at least 4 months) without notice." Now, the first thing we're supposed to do is notify the inactive staff member, and it seems to give a two month period before we take the move ourselves to just remove him, so I'd wait. Hence, I think that for now, we put three bureaucrats for now, two new ones + Nezzy. That way, if he chooses to stay, we still give him, and everyone else, the leeway to not feel pressured all the time to be here, and still have sufficient staff regularly on site. And if he chooses to leave and retire, well, we have two bureaucrats here already. | | :::::::NinjaShiek is right on potentially removing Neumannz. Our [[KHWiki:Staff Policy|Staff Policy]] says, "'''Undeclared Inactivity''' is the scenario under which a staff member leaves or does not edit for an extended period of time (at least 4 months) without notice." Now, the first thing we're supposed to do is notify the inactive staff member, and it seems to give a two month period before we take the move ourselves to just remove him, so I'd wait. Hence, I think that for now, we put three bureaucrats for now, two new ones + Nezzy. That way, if he chooses to stay, we still give him, and everyone else, the leeway to not feel pressured all the time to be here, and still have sufficient staff regularly on site. And if he chooses to leave and retire, well, we have two bureaucrats here already. |
| :::::::Speaking of the policy, we need to edit it so that it adds that all staff promotions are to be determined/approved by the community's vote. This is what was wrong when ENX asked for his rights back in 2015; we always do these things via election and community consent, but that wasn't stated in the policy. So I want to make sure this is okay before I add it. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 07:07, 5 February 2018 (UTC) | | :::::::Speaking of the policy, we need to edit it so that it adds that all staff promotions are to be determined/approved by the community's vote. This is what was wrong when ENX asked for his rights back in 2015; we always do these things via election and community consent, but that wasn't stated in the policy. So I want to make sure this is okay before I add it. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 07:07, 5 February 2018 (UTC) |
| ::::::::[[User talk:Neumannz#Staff Status|I have contacted Neumannz on his talk page]], so about we give him a couple of weeks to reply? | | ::::::::[[User talk:Neumannz#Staff Status|I have contacted Neumannz on his talk page]], so about we give him a couple of weeks to reply? |
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| ::::I'm on 15m's side here, and I trust that Kryten will be checking in enough to make use of the user rights. If any user on this site has a body of work that warrants an exception to the rule, it would be Kryten. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 03:06, 6 March 2018 (UTC) | | ::::I'm on 15m's side here, and I trust that Kryten will be checking in enough to make use of the user rights. If any user on this site has a body of work that warrants an exception to the rule, it would be Kryten. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 03:06, 6 March 2018 (UTC) |
| :::::I don't think it's that much of a problem if a user with those extra rights becomes semi-active or inactive. They're not part of the staff, they don't have any responsibility, so they don't HAVE to be active. They can edit whenever they'd like. Therefore, I don't think we should remove those rights when they become inactive. Unlike staff members, we don't need to set a limit to the amount of users who can get those rights, so it doesn't matter if inactive users have them. It's basically just an extra tool for people who provide good work for the wiki. And yes, staff members usually move/delete a page within 24 hours, but I remember from my non-staff days that it was pretty annoying to mark something for deletion/move and having to wait until someone actually did it, instead of doing it myself. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:59, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
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| :::::"which are only given to active users who have shown themselves to be responsible and conduct themselves in a exemplary manner"
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| ::::::This doesn't sound like something that's really revokable, regardless of activity. I'm still the same person and will hold my edits to the same standard -- and I'd expect the same of past staff members too.
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| ::::::I don't want to not be able to ''help'', I want to not be in a position of ''authority''. I've advocated for a ''long'' time that delete/move are janitor-level tools that should be extended to everyone who can be trusted with them, elections not really necessary -- and the obvious solution to it being "unfair" that other longtime editors don't have these rights yet is...well, give it to them. You're the bureaucrat now, that's what your job is.
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| ::::::"nor any other wikia" -- I don't quite get what you mean. I see this kind of thing ''a lot'' -- I'm actually not familiar with wikis ''demoting'' inactive staff, although I'm sure some do.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
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| :::::::NINJA'd by TSH -- yeah, basically that. I would trust any of our previous mods (unless for some reason we've banned one or two?) to continue with janitorial work.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
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| So, I think we should get rid of the Artists role for one. If we make a new "janitor" role, I'm okay with that, I just think the artist role right now, regardless, is unnecessary. As I recall when I drafted a History page for the wiki, the artist role was created shortly after the split to allow more users to help with the images of the recently-moved wiki, and I don't think it's been used much since.
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| As for the specific scenario here, I frankly still disagree with giving less-active or inactive users such tools. For one, rules and policies can change while these users are away, and they may come back and use those tools, albeit non-maliciously, to do things the "old way", and a user that does that with those tools are harder to deal with than similar edits by non-"staff" users (I'm using staff to refer to the rights, but obviously, I'm referring to those with the rights). It really should be just active users the community trusts, or we should loosen up the limits for the number of mods and how they're assigned so that its easier for trustworthy active editors to become mods. I strongly disagree with the notion that a user, any user, should be given special treatment on this or in regards to any rules, regardless of how much they've contributed or how long. And honestly, Kryten, fo someone who doesn't want to exercise authority anymore, [[Template_talk:KH3#Is_it_Necessary_to_have_this_template_locked.3F|you]] [https://www.khwiki.com/index.php?title=Template:KH3&curid=51336&diff=733804&oldid=733721 sure] [[User_talk:NinjaSheik#Template_talk|keep]] exercising it. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 20:27, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
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| ::@Porplemontage: Thanks for letting me know. Both users are inactive and have been demoted.
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| ::Guys, for the last time, my main concern is that I don't think any semi-active users should be given user rights over users who are fully active and just as eligible to have them. This has nothing to do with with the quality of edits, but rather if said user will be here to utilize those rights and keep up-to-date with new policies and guidelines, which are currently in the process of being revised/updated. It's not fair, and we must treat everyone EQUALLY. I'm completely against giving a single user any sort of special treatment, regardless of how long they've contributed to the KHWiki. There are other users who are more active than Kryten at the moment and those users should be given those rights. And since that we're such a small community where the traffic isn't all that high, I still think that creating a new user group rights might be a little redundant, but I'm not against the idea.
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| ::If we are to implement this, I want to make sure everyone is given a fair shot and everyone is treated equally based on our policies. Activity does matter, because if users who have user rights aren't present to assist with the management and isn't up-to-date with any new policies on the KHWiki, then what's the point of having them at all? That can cause a lot of misunderstandings. I agree with KSM in that regard. But whatever are disagreements are in regards to the subject, the community operates a fair consensus. No one user should decide how the community is run, and we often tried to run the KHWiki with the understanding that no user, even if they have user rights, are above anyone else. Everyone has to be treated fairly. If all of you believe a semi-active user like Kryten should be given user rights, then the same treatment must be extended to other users are also less active. I personally disagree with the idea, though, but consensus is consensus.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:17, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
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| :::I don't see how being able to move files would cause a problem for returning editors, but moving pages (which all users already can do) isn't. And I don't think people would go delete pages without discussion/without it being marked for deletion. What could be changed in the policy that makes this a problem? As for who gets the rights, maybe we should let users decide if they want them or not. Someone who mainly edits pages won't have much use in being able to move files, but someone who uploads a lot of images, or who likes to do janitorial work does. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 21:47, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
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| ::::Agree with TSH. I don’t see any convincing cons to having a janitor or artist group. In fact, making rights more accessible affirms the “all users are equal” philosophy, making the community more open and inviting so users would be more inclined to edit. It may also decrease the perception of staff members being a dominant, elitist force, which some new editors occasionally have. We can easily set up a page where editors can ask for janitor/artist rights (I don’t actually know the difference between the two) and the community can decide without any drama whether the editor is competent and trustworthy, which are the only two criteria that are necessary for this particular group. {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 00:11, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
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| :::::Chainoffire officially declared inactivity and we lost another mod. :( With that said, let's not prolong this any longer. It's not getting as us anywhere. The KHWiki loses and gains new staff members and users all the time, which is a problem due to the lack of activity. As long as all users treated fairly, I am not completely against it (I still think fully active should be given rights because they'll be able to utilize the rights more than semi-actives). So, let's just move on and select and asks users if the want janitor rights. Does anyone have any recommendations? Kryten is already a candidate, and given TFM's advocacy for janitor rights, TFM is also a candidate. I'd like to recommend Lady Junky, ThereArentSteps, and Sora34CE. I think these users especially would be able to utilize the janitor rights, and all three are fully active. LeafShinobi and Pain88 are also good users, though they lean slightly more on the semi-active side.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:34, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
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| Thank you, but I don’t want rights; I don’t intend on using them and I have zero competence with them. Maybe someone should ask those users on their talk pages if janitor rights would be something that’d be useful to them? {{User:TheFifteenthMember/Sig1}} 20:45, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
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| :::::::Regarding deletion, I don't see a need to have a discussion on the AfD every time, if the article is plainly in violation of MoS. It's pretty easy for the mods to monitor the deletion log to make sure everything's in line with policy.
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| :::::::Regarding me exercising authority -- informing an editor of the wiki's rules is different from enforcing them. If I was still a mod, I would have blocked the guy already for continuing to ignore the policy.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 13:07, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
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| Bumping this. It seems we agreed on giving certain users janitor rights. If nobody objects, I'd like to go ahead and give Kryten those rights. We can create a page where other users can request these rights, something like [[KHWiki:Staff/Janitor]], maybe. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 16:57, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
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| :Yeah, sounds good. It doesn't really seem like any of the users previously recommended are very active anymore on the KHWiki, though. Setting up a page for requests for janitor rights is a good idea.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 20:36, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
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| ::All right. I promoted Kryten, and made a page for the janitor rights (someone should improve it, because I'm really bad at writing stuff like this). I've set a requirement of 100 edits before they can request them, so we don't have every new user requesting them, if that's okay with everybody. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 10:10, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
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| ::Good idea, THS! :D Sounds fine with me.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 20:14, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
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| == Temporary break ==
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| {{KeybladeSpyMaster|time=03:01, 6 May 2018 (UTC)|sad=Hey all. Wanted to let you know that I'm taking a temporary break here, starting today. My computer has finally given out earlier this afternoon, and with no apparent fix and no way I'm getting a new computer any time soon. I'll still be able to get on site on my phone, and occasionally borrow a computer, but for the most part, I don't think I'll be able to promise a consistent check-in or activity here. If I'm needed, best form of contact is either the wiki's Discord server, the KHUX party's Messenger group, or via talk page (I get an alert via email, as all do). I should be able to work out getting the next episode of the wiki's podcast up here in the next week, and that'll be it until I can afford to buy a new computer. Sorry guys.}}
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| {{NinjaSheik|text=No need to apologize. :) It's fine. Thank you for the heads-up. I hope you can get it fixed soon.}}
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| == Resignation ==
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| It's pretty clear I've crossed a line. Whatever I was attempting to point out or say has been lost. I screwed up. I apologize. I let my frustration and emotions beat me out. Obviously, and I hope it goes without saying, pushing Kryten out like this was not my intention. Creating this chaos and mess was not my intention. I've failed you all, and the community. My behavior is not befitting a member of the staff, where we're trying to get people to play nice and work together. I made a mistake and should have known better. Should have just stepped aside sooner like everyone's saying I should have.
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| What we've got here, what we're trying to do on this site is something special. It's exciting. I've been excited and proud of being allowed the chance to be here for the last couple years. Of contributing and building and creating something real, something I could actually point to. And I'm sorry I let my own ego and frustrations get in the way of that.
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| We can't let these events stand in the way of that something exciting. We still have a chance of being more than all this. The toxicity of this conversation ought to be dropped and we ought to move on to what comes next, to building up this site to be the most complete Kingdom Hearts Wiki here. To make up for the lost ground of the last couple days. And again, I am sorry for the role I played in all of this.
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| So, in the interest of moving forward, of pushing past this, of stepping aside, I'm resigning as a member of the Wiki staff. I've enjoyed everything you guys have given me, everything you've taught me, and every chance you've given me to grow, to learn, and to have fun with all of you. I've cherished your friendship, I've enjoyed your company. Our moments here, on the IRC, everywhere. Bashing on FANDOM like no other wiki does. I might stay on the wiki, on the Discord and lurk around, unless you guys feel it best I not, but I don't think it's in the best interest of the wiki, as we try to go past this, for me to continue to be on staff. I've clearly breached a line of trust and it'd be best if the wiki were to start with a slate of staff that they can continue to trust in. Thanks for everything, guys, you'll always be the greatest wiki I've ever been a part of. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 23:12, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
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