Editing Talk:Real Organization XIII

==Notes from Ultimania for posterity (taken from [[Talk:Dark Riku]])==
Okay, so here's what the ultimania says for the nature and fate of the RO13 ([https://i.imgur.com/3HdxtFr.jpg]):
::"Reserve members are called out with '(Reserve)'" (補欠メンバパーであることを示す)
{|border=1 cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0 class="sortable" style="text-align:center; font-size:90%" align="center" width=600px
|- bgcolor="#3A3A3A"
|width="30%" style="font-size:12px; color:white; text-align:center"|'''Name'''
|width="30%" style="font-size:12px; color:white; text-align:center"|'''What kind of being is it?'''<br>(どのような存在か) 
|width="30%" style="font-size:12px; color:white; text-align:center"|'''What happened after this fight?'''<br>(今回の戦いのあとどうなったが)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Master Xehanort]]'''||Themself (human)<br>本人(人間)||destroyed (ascended to heaven)<br>消滅 (昇天)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Young Xehanort]]'''||A Replica containing the heart of the Young Xehanort from the past<br>レプリカに過去のアンセムの心が入っている||destroyed (heart returned to the past)<br>消滅(心は過去にもどる)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Terra-Xehanort]]'''||The body of Terra containing the heart of the Terra-Xehanort from the past<br>テラの身体に過去のテラ=ゼアノートの心が入っている||Terra's heart returns to body, restoring Terra (Terra-Xehanort's heart is destroyed)<br>身体にテラの心がもどり、テラとして復活(テラ=セアノートの心は消滅)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Ansem, Seeker of Darkness]]'''||A Replica containing the heart of the Ansem from the past<br>レプリカに過去のアンセムの心が入っている||destroyed<br>消滅
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Xemnas]]'''||A Replica containing the heart of the Xemnas from the past<br>レプリカに過去のゼムナスの心が入っている||destroyed<br>消滅
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Vanitas]]'''||A Replica containing the heart of the Vanitas from the past<br>レプリカに過去のヴァニタスの心が入っている||destroyed<br>消滅
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Xigbar]]'''||Themself (Nobody)<br>本人(ノーバディ)||returned to human(?) and still alive<br>人間にもどり(?)生存
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Vexen]]''' (Reserve)||Themself (Nobody)<br>本人(ノーバディ)||returned to human without being defeated and still alive<br>倒されないまま人間にもどり生存
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Saïx]]'''||Themself (Nobody)<br>本人(ノーバディ)||returned to human and still alive<br>人間にもどり生存
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Demyx]]''' (Reserve)||Themself (Nobody)<br>本人(ノーバディ)||returned to human and still alive(?)<br>人間にもどり生存(?)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Luxord]]'''||Themself (Nobody)<br>本人(ノーバディ)||returned to human and still alive(?)<br>人間にもどり生存(?)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Marluxia]]'''||Themself (Nobody)<br>本人(ノーバディ)||returned to human and still alive(?)<br>人間にもどり生存(?)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Larxene]]'''||Themself (Nobody)<br>本人(ノーバディ)||returned to human and still alive(?)<br>人間にもどり生存(?)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Dark Riku]]'''||A Replica containing the heart of the Riku Replica from the past<br>レプリカに過去のリク＝レプリカの心が入っている||destroyed, leaving behind the original Replica body as a vessel (the original body is used as a vessel for Namine)<br>器となるレブリカの素体を残して消滅(残きれた素体はナミネの器として利用される)
|- bgcolor="#E6E6FA"
|'''[[Xion]]'''||A Replica containing "the heart of Xion from her early days as a member of the XIII Order"<br>レプリカに「XIII機関に加入して間もないころのシオンの心」が入っている||original heart was returned from Sora and her memories were redeemed, and she defected to the side of the Guardians of Light<br>ソラから本来の心がもどって記憶を取りもどし,光の守護者側へ転身
|}
{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:53, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

==Isa==
What proof do we have that this is Isa and not Saix? The fact that Lea calls him that is not all that conclusive, considering how Axel and Saix called each other by their original names in KHD.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 19:14, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
:Agreement. We really need the Ultimania on this one.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:44, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
::But Lea calling him "Isa" IN THE GAME is the only evidence we have as to who he is, so I think it's only logical to put "Isa" on the list of names instead of "Saïx" with the fact tag until the Ultimania comes out. If we put "Saïx", we're speculating. He was directly called "Isa", so we should go by that instead of his appearance for the time being. At least that's what I think. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 20:56, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
::We have his appearance and that Xigbar and Young Xehanort say that he and Xigbar are their original bodies with Xehanort's hearts, which is also what they were during the first Organization XIII. Their story basically denies that they are different beings than they were in the first Organization.
::Basically, there's no reason to believe he's a different thing than when we last saw him in Days/KHII, and the way the plot puts it, he is made of the same stuff as he was before. There is nothing to indicate that Braig or Isa's hearts ever came back to them.[[Special:Contributions/192.249.47.177|192.249.47.177]] 21:01, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
:::Going off of what the IP said, recall Ienzo tells Lea when a person's heart returns, he or she is reborn in the world he or she lost it. In the beginning of ''KH3D'', Xehanort extracts Braig's heart in the Radiant Garden, thus Braig should have returned to Radiant Garden with the other apprentices and Lea. Isa was Lea's childhood friend and the two lived in Radiant Garden together, so it's plausible to believe he lost his heart in Radiant Garden, too (further evidence is Axel and Saïx's joining Organization XIII at the same time). But because Braig and Isa were not in the Radiant Garden when Lea and the apprentices were reborn, it can be assumed their hearts have not returned (thus they have not been reborn), and based on Ienzo's words and what I've stated above, it's not possible for either of them to have been reborn in another world, either. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 00:13, 22 April 2012 (UTC)
::::No matter what form the characters have taken, the game's credits list them as Braig and Isa. While Braig did appear in his original human form in the opening flashback, Isa's sole appearance in the game is as part of the new Organization. I'd say that's pretty concrete proof that he's considered Isa. [[Special:Contributions/131.128.130.106|131.128.130.106]] 07:34, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
The reports in the game call him "Saix", so he's either like Braig/Xigbar or just still a Nobody {{User:Erry/Sig}} 12:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
:Well, that IS a predicament. Do we take the end credit's word or the reports? [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 14:05, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
::The reports, because those are the ones that are actually intended to be canon. The credits are, c'mon, credits guys. Mr. anons and all such, the fact that the game explicitly says that they are functionally the same being is much more important than whatever name the guy in charge of the credits decided to use.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:27, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

To the anons: The credits didn't list Isa/Saix at all. HE DIDN'T TALK AT ALL.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 23:27, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

{{neumannz|time=11:45, 4 May 2012 (UTC)|text=UPDATE:

Ultimania confirms that it is Saix, not Isa. [ http://kh13.com/zenphoto/zp-core/full-image.php?a=books%2Fkingdom-hearts-3d-ultimania&i=b09.jpg&q=75&wmk=!] }}

== Merging with Organization XIII ==

Because these two groups are Organization XIII, I think there should be only one page about it, and create it in a way that it covers both incarnations of the Organization. [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] 21:23, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

There was actually a discussion about it [http://www.khwiki.net/Talk:Organization_XIII#Separate_Page here]. --{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:36, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
::If you can set up a draft that isn't a total mindjunk, go for it and we can have another discussion.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 05:19, 6 May 2012 (UTC)

== Vanitas ==
Isnt it impiled that the Thirteen Xehanorts each have a piece of Vanitas' heart and The Princess' each have a piece of Ventus' heart, after all it does say that after the X-blades last destruction that the hearts with in it split into 13 and 7. --[[Special:Contributions/124.148.205.68|124.148.205.68]] 12:23, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
:If that happened, then Sora wouldn't be able to wield the Keyblade, and that all 13 would be able to wield a Keyblade as the same for the Princesses. {{User:Erry/Sig}} 13:50, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
::"The last destruction" refers to the Keyblade War. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 14:19, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
:::Any evidence that it refers to the Keyblade war, also the 13 can wield keyblades and it is implied that the princess can, and why would Sora not get a keyblade?--[[Special:Contributions/203.206.0.249|203.206.0.249]] 08:27, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Also the fact that Vanitas appears beside and speaks the same words as Xehanort kind of implies it.
Vanitas does not actually appear. We don't know why his face appeared in that scene, yet, but he was not there. Anyway, the 13 and 7 do not necessarily have to be specific people; after all, the 7 in this confrontation will not be the princesses, and the 13 were intended to be the first organization, so there's no factor of "they received parts of someone's heart" besides what xehanort did, which was intentional. Plus the princesses were significant even before the χ-blade was forged by V&V. So there's no reason to think Van's heart is involved here.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 11:04, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
:::::Vanitas does in fact appear, and the fact that they need hearts of pure darkness (with Vanitas' being the only one) supports that Vanitas' heart is the one being placed inside the Xehanorts, the fact that Vanitas overlays Young Xehanort back this up, though the Princess obviously do not have pieces  of Ventus' heart, another piece of evidence is MF's x shaped attack, Dark Riku's bodysuit when possesed by Ansem and the fact that Vanitas appears to phase out of Master Xehanort in BBS, and also how Ansem mimics Vanitas face when Ventus-Vanitas was talking about the keyblade war.--[[Special:Contributions/58.7.111.194|58.7.111.194]] 12:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
:Some things:
#They do not need hearts of pure darkness, they need "thirteen darknesses". It would be really odd for them to need thirteen ''hearts'' and then rely on Nobodies.
#Vanitas does not have the only heart of pure darkness, he's just a purely dark heart that Xehanort used.
#Young Xehanort is explicitly Master Xehanort from his youth, not some mutated form. He's temporarily cast off his body so that he can time travel, but he has not stuck in Vanitas's heart or any other shenanigans.
#Riku and Young Xehanort strike the same pose when they offer their hand to Sora. That does not mean they are the same person.
#To my recollection, Vanitas phases out of Xehanort only in the special video, which is explicitly meant to be pretty animations that give only ideas for the next game, not canon. Recall that they also slayed some draconic beast and used Sora, Riku, and Mickey's Keyblades in that video.
#This talk page is ''not'' a forum. Unless you are notifying us of an ''explicit error that you can back up with direct evidence'', you should not be posting on this page. Go to the [[Forum:Index|forums]], instead.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:16, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

== Terra ==
Isnt it impiled that Terranort is one of the thirteen as Xehanort states that he has Terra under his control, also it seems Vanitas is a member.
:I don't know where you're getting the idea of Vanitas - there's no proof of that. As for Terranort, it's definitely implied, but to officially name him a member would be speculation. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 01:47, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. Besides, even then, Terranort would have to be the one in the Organization, Not Terra.


Based on the conversation between Master Xehanort and King Mickey, it seems that M.Xehanort himself confirms Terra as one of the twelve.  When Mickey begins to consider the 7 Guardians of Light, he lists himself, Sora, Riku, and his "three missing friends" Terra, Aqua, and Ven.  M.Xehanort then says two of that count were under his control.  Obviously Sora is one of the two, as he was sitting right there, about to become #13.  Mickey has a great resistance to Darkness (as is mentioned on his page on this wiki), and was obviously not among those seated, so he can be ruled out.  It cannot be Riku, as Young Xehanort mentions he was meant to be the 13th, but his Heart grew too resistant so they moved on to Sora.  It cannot be Ventus, as Xemnas was searching for him but could not find him in Castle Oblivion (and now, we can probably guess why he was searching). And it cannot be Aqua, as she was at this point on the beach with Ansem the Wise in the Realm of Darkness, lost to everyone's sight.  It can't even secretly be Lea or Kairi, as Mickey didn't list them and M.Xehanort mentions that they are "three lights short," signifying he does not yet know that they have a 7th Keyblade.  So Terra-Xehanort must be among the 13 Seekers. [[User:Lord Knight Xiron|Lord Knight Xiron]] ([[User talk:Lord Knight Xiron|talk]]) 19:21, 9 August 2012 (UTC)Lord Knight Xiron.
:I would need to check the actual scene, but "under my control" doesn't necessarily mean or even imply "is another clone of me".
:However, that does leave room for Kairi (and Yen Sid assumes that she has to be one of them), so it's possible. However, Terra was never going to be one of the lights, whether he's a good guy or not.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 19:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
::He might not have been meant to be one of the Lights in the end, but he was one of the six people Mickey mentioned and were referred to in the scene.  Though I guess it is true that it doesn't make him necessarily one of the 13 simply for being "under his control," it also doesn't seem very likely that he wouldn't be. At least to me.  I can see what you mean though, and I'll leave it at that until we get Nomura's word on the matter. [[User:Lord Knight Xiron|Lord Knight Xiron]] ([[User talk:Lord Knight Xiron|talk]]) 19:39, 9 August 2012 (UTC)Lord Knight Xiron
:Very likely. However, until we can get full confirmation, we can't add him to the list.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 19:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

== Vanitas as a member ==
— Why did Xehanort and co. word things as if to try and wake Ventus who is inside Sora? Nomura: They did so in order to tempt Sora’s heart and have it fall to the darkness. In the story it also talks about how abandoning the self leads to losing the heart. When you see Vanitas (the dark half of Ventus who appeared in KHBBS) overlay Young Xehanort for a moment, that represents Ventus’ heart reacting inside Sora.

— What about Vanitas? Nomura: Vanitas is different than Xemnas and Ansem; he doesn’t necessarily have a physical form. He reacted to Ventus within Sora, so that’s how he was visible. 

Nomura's interviews imply that Vanitas is a member.
:No, they really really don't.[[Special:Contributions/192.249.47.177|192.249.47.177]] 13:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
::Nomura is simply saying Ven's heart has a presence within Sora, and is affecting how he sees things. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 00:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

== Move to "True Organization XIII" ==

Young Xehanort refers to the reformed Organization as the {{nihongo|true Organization XIII|真のXIII機関|Shin no Jūsan Kikan}}, as the other members assemble in the thrones. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 19:37, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
:Well, in the NA version, Young Xehanort refers to them, in this same cutscene, as the real Organization XIII. In the World Map, after clearing the game, the story of TWTNW also refers to it as the real Organization XIII. I never heard true Organization XIII in the game. Shouldn't it be moved to "Real Organization XIII", even if we can't let the name as "real Organization XIII"? - {{User:MateusinhoEX/SigTemplate}} 13:36, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

== Second Riku ==

In Prankster's Paradise, there is a moment where Riku meets a version of himself that has the Organization XIII coat. Could it be possible that this other Riku is a member of the True Organization XIII? --[[User:Littleman|Littleman]] 20:58, 24 May 2012 (UTC)
: This is the Riku Replica, brought back to life. He is a member of the True Organization, according the the game.

Actually, that makes sense. At the time, Xehanort's Heartless had managed to hide inside of Riku when he arrived at Castle Oblivion. This gave him the essence of Xehanort. Thus, when Vexen copied Riku, he also copied Xehanort's essence along with him, thus making the seventh True Organization XIII member. However, this is just a theory, so take it as just that and nothing more. --[[User:Littleman|Littleman]] ([[User talk:Littleman|talk]]) 16:37, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

When does the game say that? Got a source?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 23:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

:This is what Riku says after finding out the guy who took Pinocchio away was himself/someone looking exactly like him: "''That was... my dark side. I gave in to the darkness once. And ever since, it's chased me around in one form or another. The Seeker of Darkness who stole my body... a puppet replica of the shadows in my heart... and now, I'm facing me.''". It doesn't confirm anything, and there is no profile for the guy, but since he is wearing an Organization coat and disappears into a corridor of darkness, it does seem like whoever he is, he's part of the new Organization XIII, and not just the world's dream of Riku from KH1. --[[User:Wind Prism|Wind Prism]] ([[User talk:Wind Prism|talk]]) 00:22, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
::Black coat = Organization member? Are you kidding? [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 01:24, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

For all we know, that could've been nothing more than an illusion created by Young Xehanort and/or Ansem. As soon as he shows up, he disappears without word, nor any real explanation to what that was really all about, and doesn't even appear again afterward. I wish they had actually explained it instead of just leaving us hanging like that. [[User:Blackchaos27|Blackchaos27]] ([[User talk:Blackchaos27|talk]]) 08:07, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
:Tell me about it. This whole thing is bothering me quite a bit. --[[User:Littleman|Littleman]] ([[User talk:Littleman|talk]]) 15:47, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

== Rename ==

We should rename them the Thirteen Darkness, since that is what they are referred to, and we also need to make a page for the Seven Lights.--124.168.242.102

The article already mentions them being refer to the "thirteen seekers of darkness". And the seven lights refers to the seven Princesses of Heart--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 02:43, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually the 7 lights refer to the protectors of the 7 princess. --[[Special:Contributions/124.168.242.102|124.168.242.102]] 11:41, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Oh, right. I forgot about that, but because we don't know who the protectors are, besides Riku and soon-to-be Kairi, we can't really create a page with such small information.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 15:58, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
:Actually Mickey and Xehanort mention who the lights are, Mickey says that he, Sora, Riku, The Lost Three (probably Terra, Aqua and Ventus) and the Last One, but the Xehanort says that the Last One is on his side, the Last One is not Terra as Terra is mentioned as one of the Lost Three.--[[Special:Contributions/124.168.242.102|124.168.242.102]] 01:15, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
::Translations of that line seem to say different things. While some translations say that the last of the Seven Lights is on Xehanort's side, others say that the last of the Missing Three (Terra) is on his side. I think the latter translation makes more sense, because a) Terra is still possessed by Xehanort and is therefore still on his side; and b) the first translation implies that the last light, which Yen Sid says is Kairi, is on Xehanort's side- which she most certainly is not. Hopefully this will be cleared up in the English release. --{{User:As if!/Autosig}} 01:34, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
:::The last light cannot be Kairi as she is a princess and the lights are the protectors of the princesses, also by on his side, he meant that they were willingly on his side, Terra wasnt because Terra had his body but both Xehanort's heart and soul. Sora was because he still had his Body, Heart and Soul but Xehanort was infusining them with darkness.--[[Special:Contributions/124.168.242.102|124.168.242.102]] 01:46, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
::::Okay, now you're just tripping, anon. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 01:48, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
::What As if and Maggosh-kun are trying to say in this: It'd be better if we wait until the English it out so we avoid confusions and all the such. There's no rush, the game is coming real soon, but there can be lot of mistakes when translating, so to avoid such things, it's better if we wait, like As if said.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 01:58, 27 May 2012 (UTC)
On Master Xehanort's profile, you can read ''Now, he has revealed his ultimate goal: to create the '''real Organization XIII'''''. Should that be considered the official English name for this article? --[[User:Wind Prism|Wind Prism]] ([[User talk:Wind Prism|talk]]) 16:39, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
:What was our source for "True XIII Order" in Japanese, again?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:53, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
::Maggosh-kun posted a topic above that above. He said, "Young Xehanort refers to the reformed Organization as the true Organization XIII (真のXIII機関 Shin no Jūsan Kikan?), as the other members assemble in the thrones."--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 18:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
:::In the English version of the game, the group is actually never referred to as the "True Organization XIII". It is, however, referred to several times as the "real Organization XIII". Notice how "real" is in lower case and is clearly not a proper adjective, leading me to believe that it's not its own entity and it's just a true reformation of the original Organization XIII to match its original purpose. Thus it should probably be merged with the Organization XIII article, or renamed to "Real Organization XIII". --[[User:Key|Key]]
::::Note that a) this was translated from the Japanese version of the game, and b) an article cannot start with a lower case character. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 19:00, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::He didn't say it should start with a lowercase letter, he simply said that "Real" isn't an actual part of the title. That being said, I'm against a re-merge, and all for just keeping the article as is. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 20:29, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::But seeing as real isn't an actual part of the title, and it's never referred to as the True Organization, we're left with the name Organization XIII. Seeing as that's the name, shouldn't it be merged with the other page? - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 20:48, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::Except that if merged, we run the risk of sounding like that the two Organizations were one and the same, which is false - they are two distinct groups. Also, the merged article we had before was a mess, and getting a comprehensive cover of the plot concerning both groups - which intersect somewhat - would be a daunting task. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 22:25, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::::I'd be for a re-merge, with a section perhaps titled "Second Organization XIII", "New Organization XIII", or "Real Organization XIII". I feel like that would remove the risk of thinking they're the same group. However, if that can't be done, at the very least we should change the title of this article to "Real Organization XIII". --[[User:Key|Key]]
::Dudes, just ''look'' at the layout for Organization XIII. That is not an article that could easily accept this info...though if you'd like to present a draft, that's fine. There's really no point to suggesting a merge if you haven't planned how it would actually be carried out.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 06:49, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
:::Barring the idea of a re-merge, how about simply changing the title of this article to "Real Organization XIII" to match the official title used in-game? [[User:Key|Key]]
==Other members==
Since Vanitas appeared with Young Xehanort, is he a member? Also is the Riku replica a member, because he wears a black coat.--[[Special:Contributions/124.150.48.45|124.150.48.45]] 09:27, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
:Vanitas only appeared because Ventus's heart was reacting within Sora. Also black coat ≠ member. [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 11:50, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
::Riku and Mickey wore black coats before. But were they part of any Organization? No. [[User:ParadiseFusion15|ParadiseFusion15]] 7:07, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
:::Thats because Riku was pretending to be an Organization member. Also why was Vanitas there, is he inside Xehanort's heart in a similar way to Ventus and Sora?--[[Special:Contributions/124.150.38.28|124.150.38.28]] 12:47, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
::::''Vanitas only appeared because Ventus's heart was reacting within Sora.'' [[User:Maggosh|mag]][[User talk:Maggosh|gosh]] 13:12, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
:::::It'd be nice if anyone who is going to post on this discussion page would actually read it first - we have this question answered above already at least once. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 17:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)
::::::And also Lea wears the black coat although he's not an organization member at all. {{User:Braviaggron/Sig}} 18:40, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

==Order==
I checked which thrones they where each sitting on and managed to get the all, this needs to be added to the page but I cannot add it in because its locked.
*I. Master Xehanort
*II. Xemnas
*III. Ansem
*IV. Xigbar
*V. Unknown
*VI. Unknown
*VII. Saïx 
*VIII. Unknown
*IX. Unknown
*X. Unknown
*XI. Unknown
*XII Young Xehanort
*XIII. Sora
--[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 10:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
:I agree. I think it's worth adding. Whoever's in charge of this locked page should add it. Except I think No. XIII should be labeled as either ''Sora (Failed)'', another ''Unknown'', or ''[currently empty]'', since the attempt on Sora did fail and Xehanort may find someone else to fill the seat. [[User:Blackchaos27|Blackchaos27]] ([[User talk:Blackchaos27|talk]]) 06:35, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
::Key words are "think" and "unknown". Has Nomura even verified whether they chose the seats on purpose, yet?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:54, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
:::We are supposed to add official info to all pages and this is official info.--[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 13:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC):
::::''Has Nomura even verified whether they chose the seats on purpose, yet?'' As in, how do we know they won't sit in different seats next time they show up? Yes, we add all official info, ''so long as it is informative''. Keeping track of the exact chair a character sits on is not exactly informative unless it has some verified purpose.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 16:01, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
:::::Well we dont know whether or not they will sit on different chairs, but until then this should be treated as the confirmed order.
::::::Except for 1) This info is quite arbitrary and serves little purpose, and 2) The chair they sit in does not necessarily translate to their exact ranking in the Organization. Frankly, it's too much of a stretch to claim that we know the rankings when all we've done is just count the chairs. Until Nomura confirms anything, we're not putting this on the page. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 20:56, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
::Vanitas, that's like the opposite of sense. Us not knowing whether the chairs are permanent does NOT mean we should assume they are. Listen to LR.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:24, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Nomura originally intended to keep the ranking idea for members of the second organization. However, he scrapped the idea mid-production, believing it would have been too confusing for players to see members from the first iteration of the Organization holding a new rank. Thus they have all their meetings in the Keyblade Graveyard, instead of the Round Room. Though, I guess the ranks could still be present given where each member of the Organization stood to Master Xehanort's side when they faced the Seven Guardians of Light. ([[Special:Contributions/96.68.6.221|96.68.6.221]] 22:22, 1 August 2019 (UTC))

==13 seekers and 7 guardians==
I was thinking. Since we got a page on the thirteen seekers of darkness, should we make a page for the seven guardians of light?

Let's see, it seems pretty clear that four of the seven are Sora, Riku, Mickey, and Kairi. It seems that the other three would be Terra, Ventus, and Aqua, however Xehanort claims that one of them belongs to him now(most likely Terra). If that is true then Lea would probably be the replacement. [[User:Blackchaos27|Blackchaos27]] ([[User talk:Blackchaos27|talk]]) 00:10, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
:While there are definitely likelihoods considering the seven guardians, there really isn't enough confirmed info to merit a page. Once they appear as a more official organization in future installments, we should have enough info to make a page. {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 01:38, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
::We know it's not Terra, Xehanort explicitly says that it is not. Mickey lists himself, Riku, Sora, and the three BBS, Xehanort rejects Terra and Sora, but they regain Sora anyway. Yen Sid then says that Lea and Kairi will be training for the Mark of Mastery as well, I'm not sure this is uncertain at all.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:09, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
:::I have to agree with Kryten. Sora, Riku and Mickey are all but confirmed. Kairi and Lea are in training, but will most likely be ready to join the fight in III. The only problematic spots are those of Aqua and Ven, who are stuck in realm of darkness and castle oblivion respectively. Unless someone takes one of the empty spots before Aqua and Ven are rescued, or one of the others are wounded or something like that, this Is pretty much going to be it. {{User:L'cie}} 11:43 26 June 2015

== Image ==

If somebody could put up this image

[[File:Real Organization XIII KHIII.png|left|thumb|200px]]

on the page please, that'd be great, since I can't do it. KrytenKoro did a good job like I did for the Forms of Xehanort image :P [[User:EnglishJoker|EnglishJoker]] ([[User talk:EnglishJoker|talk]]) 14:48, 25 February 2013 (UTC)
{{-}}

== Eyes ==

All current members have yellowish-goldish-amber eyes. Saix and Xigbar are the only ones from the organization, save for Xemnas, to posses this trait, and the only confirmed now-members of the new organization, again except for Xemnas. When Xigbar says he's half Xehanort,the camera zooms to his amber eye. And he's an eye short, a.k.a. "half". I'm leaving this here for what it's worth, since it could imply that's that of the old XIII (Xehanort vessels had amber eyes, and no other member had amber eyes) and might hint to the others. It's probably a wild guess, but again, "for what it's worth".--[[Special:Contributions/92.118.175.99|92.118.175.99]] 17:29, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

== Unknown members ==
I am a wiki contrabuter and i think that Terra-Xehanort is a member because if you think about it True Organization XIII is made up of 13 Xehanorts and most of them are from the past.
--[[Special:Contributions/94.174.164.212|94.174.164.212]] 18:33, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
:While a reasonable prediction, we can't add T-X—or anyone, for that matter—to the list of members until we have confirmation.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 23:06, 11 June 2013 (UTC)
It wood be very nice to see the other 7 Xehanorts. --[[Special:Contributions/94.174.164.212|94.174.164.212]] 13:46, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
:I would just say that, but of course, it isn't still confirmed. But if you pay attention, in Where Nothing Gathers, Mickey tells Xehanort that "for Keyblade Wielders, there are me, Riku, and Sora, and my three missing friends (Terra, Aqua and Ven) [...] and the seventh would be (Lea) [...]" and Xehanort replies "But Sora and ''another on your list'' belongs to me now. That puts you three guardians short." Now, consider that, as Xehanort didn't knew about Lea, he counted him as one, and with Sora and the "other", that makes three. Now, remembering RE:Coded, I think, Yen Sid says that the only one left to find is Terra. This means that the Seven Guardians of Light are Mickey, Sora, Riku, Ven, Aqua (who were already found), Lea and Kairi. There are already Seven Guardians, which means Terra is not one of them, and he is the only one on Mickey's list that can belong to the 13 seekers of darkness, aside Sora, who was rescued. So, we can assume Terra-Xehanort is one of them, but nothing can be really confirmed yet. - {{User:MateusinhoEX/SigTemplate}} 13:53, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
::"Belongs to me" doesn't necessarily mean that he's one of the Organization. It just means he's in Xehanort's power.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 11:57, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
:::Sorry, but I doubt when Mickey listing the seven guardian he refer Lea, because he don't know Lea can use the Keyblade, I think Mickey refer another wielder of his past, but we don't see him in any game, maybe MX refer this one is belong to MX, the mine is only a theory, but I don't know who is the seventh of mIckey list (because Kairi is impossibile for the Mickey's reaction in the secret ending and Lea too cannot be because he don't know about he can use the Keyblade)--[[Special:Contributions/93.150.134.217|93.150.134.217]] 20:32, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
So Saix and Xigbar are confirmed, is it reasonable to assume Isa and Braig, will be too? Xehanort, Ansem, and Xemnas are all members, so do you think Xehanort found a way to get their Nobody vessels along with their newly revived forms?{{unsigned|161.130.188.55}}

Please sign you posts. As for your question, who knows? We don't post speculation in the articles, just so you know. All we can do is wait until new information is released.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 21:44, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

== Nobodies or Somebodies ==
Since the purpose of the Original Organization XIII was to help create and find suitable People to be transformed into heartless and into nobodies, in order to use the nobodies, and to fill them with fragments of Master Xehanort's heart, while their original hearts which are enveloped in darkness, so that when the hearts remerge with their bodies, the hearts of those people will be taken over by the heart fragments of Master Xehanort, thus turning them in to Xehanort(s) or Xehanort clones. So logically, all the members of the true Organization XIII are no longer nobodies but have become somebodies again, only just not their true selves. This means that all the nobodies (excluding Xemnes as his heartless Ansem and himself have clearly not remerged together) like Braig now Xigbar and Isa now Saix, are true somebodies.{{unsigned|Chronicler V}}

:Sign your posts, please.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 19:23, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

::Also, why would you expect them to be complete beings without having to regain their lost hearts?  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 19:34, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Ansem and Xemnas have remerged, that's why Master Xehanort is back. The ones in KH3D are actually time-displaced. Which begs the question of whether Xigbar and Sa�x will be part of the new Organization as time-displaced Nobodies along with their original selves. I think they did get their lost hearts, and then gave them up like Braig in Birth by Sleep. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 20:41, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

This again? lol. That said, there is a line from the Ultimania (p. 429, bottom right) one should take into account:

'''''Xigbar and Saïx appeared as members of Organization XIII. Did they return as humans like Lea and the others?'''''

''The conditions of becoming a human have been met, so you’d think they had returned, wouldn’t you? For them to have been with Xehanort and the others, perhaps they were collected after they had become humans and before Lea and the others woke up. You could say the same for the members of Organization XIII that didn’t appear in this title, however… I’d rather everyone use their imaginations.''

The implication is that the Xigbar and Saix we see in this game ''are'' their recompleted selves, but the last line still leaves it up to interpretation for now (probably Nomura being deliberately ambiguous in case he wants to change something). [[User:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#002395 ;">Ultima Spark</span>]] ''[[User talk:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#007FFF ;">(talk)</span>]]'' [[File:Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png|17px]] 00:22, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
::By the very clear explanation of how both Organizations worked, they have the same components they did as the last time they were called Nobodies. This isn't that confusing.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 04:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
:::...what are you trying to say, exactly? The Ultimania hints at the possibility that those two ''at least'' have returned as complete beings ("'''For them to have been with Xehanort and the others, perhaps they were collected after they had become humans'''..."). It's not a confirmation, but I feel it warrants a mention somewhere. [[User:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#002395 ;">Ultima Spark</span>]] ''[[User talk:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#007FFF ;">(talk)</span>]]'' [[File:Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png|17px]] 07:24, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

== About Renaming This Article ==

Sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but I was wondering why it was never decided (or if it was) what we would call this article? In a previous discussion, someone said we should rename it "Real Organization XIII" because that's the title used in the game. I, for one, am in full agreement. Thoughts? - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 02:19, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm good with changing it.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 03:32, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, a lot of time has passed now, so I think a final call is in order: Should the page be renamed?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 18:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
:I'm starting to think nobody is even noticing this topic here, which could be why no one is putting in any input. Anyways if you want my opinion, I think it should remain as it is, cause, really what does it matter. True, Real, It's all the same. And in my opinion, 'True' just sounds better to me. Unfortunately, most people can't remove rename request themselves because the article is locked to prevent edit wars for fan speculation. Personally, I'm surprised the admins haven't removed the request already. [[User:Blackchaos27|Blackchaos27]] ([[User talk:Blackchaos27|talk]]) 00:00, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
::"Real" is the name used in the NA localization, with "True XIII Order" as the literal translation.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 01:36, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
:::And the wiki does use all NA localization for its article. Before, I had the similar mindset as Blackchoas27, but we gotta stick the NA localization like we with everything else. So, it's decided? We change the article? No objections?--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 03:48, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

:None here, it's more official anyway. {{User:Chainoffire/sig}} 03:56, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
::It sounds weirder, but that's not a real reason not to.  --{{User:Neumannz/SigTemplate}} 04:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
:::You guys have a fair point, so no objections here. [[User:Blackchaos27|Blackchaos27]] ([[User talk:Blackchaos27|talk]]) 14:49, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
::::Agreed with Neumz-senpai about it sounding weird, but that shouldn't be reason why we shouldn't change it. All right, then. Let's rename it. :)--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 20:34, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

== Time-displaced Xigbar, Saix ==

— Did King Mickey’s time magic not work properly on Young Xehanort because Young Xehanort has the power to control time?

Nomura: Not Young Xehanort’s but rather Master Xehanort’s power. King Mickey was surprised at the time, seeing his Keyblade and noticing he harboured the power of Master Xehanort. That Keyblade was designed as the one Master Xehanort used in KHBBS combined with an hourglass, you see.

— Were the 13 Seekers of Darkness, who were meant to be in different times, gathered by transcending time with magic?

Nomura: Just as it says in the story, to transcend time one must ‘first’ discard their form. As a result of the actions of the Brown Robed Figure, they all were in a state where they had gained the power to transcend time. The Brown Robed Figure explains the facts. The thirteen were summoned at the same time, this time thanks to Young Xehanort who borrowed that power. '''However, apart from Young Xehanort, that does not mean that all the members transcended time.'''

Read more: http://kh13.com/forum/topic/34430-spoilers-kingdom-hearts-3d-ultimania-nomura-interviews-completely-translated/#ixzz4XGlXmBPJ{{unsigned|KrytenKoro}}

:Hold up.  The game pretty strongly gave the impression that Xigbar and Saix were their revived selves, as they were Nobodyfied in Ansem's computer room but were nowhere to be found afterwards.  As to why they're using their Nobody names, I guess it's an Organization thing?  --[[User:Ignis|Ignis]] ([[User talk:Ignis|talk]]) 23:08, 30 January 2017 (UTC)
::Right, Young Xehanort took them and turned them back into Nobodies. The whole point was making them vessels for Xehanort's heart, just like they were in the first Organization.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 14:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
:::Recent Famitsu confirms that the returning Organization members are not time travelling. They've been resurrected and the turned into Nobodies and norted. The only known time travellers are Xemnas, Ansem SoD, and Young Xehanort [[User:Konu|Konu]] ([[User talk:Konu|talk]]) 23:48, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

::::To say the truth, a bit after the release of DDD, Nomura confirmed that Ansem and Xemnas are not time traveler, he confirmed this in both an interview and an official "Xehanort timeline", this is quite strange I know, I too was surprised but this is confirmed.--[[Special:Contributions/186.237.35.234|186.237.35.234]] 10:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
:::::I'm not seeing that in the Xehanort Experience Record -- the closest I'm seeing is that it doesn't explicitly say they were brought from the past. Plus, the core plot is that their destruction has revived Master Xehanort, so it wouldn't make much sense if YX had rebroken MX like he did with Braig, Isa, Laurium, Larxene's person, and Luxord's.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:33, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

==Terra confirmed==
Nomura confirmed Terra is a member of the Org. XIII.<br>
https://www.khinsider.com/kingdom-hearts-3/frequently-asked-questions

According to Mickey Mouse, the Guardians of Light are himself, Riku, Sora, Aqua, and Ventus. Mickey assumed Terra was a light, '''however Master Xehanort revealed that Terra is one of the Thirteen Darknesses'''. The sixth and seventh members are currently unknown.{{unsigned|93.150.193.86}}
:KHInsider's FAQ isn't an official source. If you could link us to the actual interview (or even a translation of said interview) where Tetsuya Nomura makes this distinction, then we would be able to change it. From the looks of this, though, this page is only KHInsider's interpretation of events as revealed so far. {{KeybladeSpyMaster/Sig}} 16:12, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

==It's Riku Replica, not Dark Riku==
On this cutscene https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMrjxT0pKUk Riku talks with another Riku that was inside his mind or heart (it is unclear which one is it, as he is the only one who can see him, Sora and Kairi can't), this Riku using the darkness suit says "I didn't make much of myself as a replica." Then at the Keyblade Graveyard, this cutscene plays when beating "Dark Riku" https://youtu.be/EQ2VVQaPAxk?t=376 where he says "You're not real" which confuses Riku and asks him if he is NOT himself from the time Ansem took his body, and then Riku Replica shows up confirming that it is, in fact, himself, Riku Replica. The image of Dark Riku with the Keyblade of Heart might of been shown as a red herring in order to not spoil the plot twist. Besides, it is not the first Riku that it is implied to be, in San Fransokyo it was believed to be Data-Riku, for the use of the Bug Blox or Darkubes, as Fred called them.

== List ==
Discussion has been moved to [[Forum:Real Organization XIII Speculation|this forum]]. {{User:Chitalian8/Sig}} 03:50, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

== Dark Riku or Riku Replica? ==

When we list Riku in some variation as a member, are we sure it's Dark Riku's heart in a replica body? My interpretation was that it was just straight up a new Riku Replica with part of Xehanort's heart inside. It seemed like they were saying that the whole "Time traveling Dark Riku" thing was a ruse as I think they even mention that when Riku was previously possessed by Ansem, he looked like Ansem, and that form of him is already part of the Organization.

Maybe I'm wrong, haven't watched the scene in a while. Anyone able to check? {{User:LightRoxas/Sig}} 19:21, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
::See Dark Riku's talk page. We're waiting for the Ultimania to give us a concrete answer, since the game makes things ''really'' confusing. - {{User:EternalNothingnessXIII/Sig}} 23:40, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
:::When's the ultimania's release date?  --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 20:46, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
::::28th of Febuary I believe - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 20:48, 14 February 2019 (UTC)
:From what I got of it, it's an entirely new replica. So Dark Riku. --[[User:Samoa Joe|Samoa Joe]] ([[User talk:Samoa Joe|talk]]) 23:48, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

== Main Image ==
When Xion is acting as part of this Organization she has her hooded "puppet" look, so a render of that would be better for the group image. --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 23:00, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
Agreed; it makes more sense.([[Special:Contributions/96.68.6.221|96.68.6.221]] 22:36, 13 March 2019 (UTC))

== Time period Ansem was recruited from ==
First thought would suggest the brief period at the end of KH1, when Ansem is in Riku's body, but when Ansem says "What a journey you and I have had" to Riku, doesn't it imply that it's from much later in the story? After the Kingdom Hearts Encoder explodes, but before Xemnas is defeated, perhaps? If both Ansem and Xemnas were recruited during that interlude when Kingdom Hearts is raining hearts, it would make sense for them to have such familiar discourse with Sora and Riku during 3D and KH3. Anybody? - [[User:Joveus|Joveus]] ([[User talk:Joveus|talk]]) 16:44, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
:I don't think we can assume much that isn't stated along those veins. The Twilight Town gang and Rinzler both make it clear that memories can be "reacquired" through the chain of memories.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:05, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

== Time members were collected from ==

Since it's ambiguous as to when many members where collected from, I think the references to recruitment should all just go under a "Before ''Kingdom Hearts coded''" section. --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 17:00, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
:We don't do "before" though if we have both boundaries. We do "Between".
:Regarding TX, it doesn't really seem like he had that for more than a few moments, and he was still confused. Seeing as Terra-Xehanort knows he's a Xehanort in KH3, I think it would only make sense for him to be from before giving himself amnesia. We also don't really have any reason to believe that Young Xehanort hopped again -- the Xehanort Experience Record has him showing up in Land of Departure right before the final battle, so it would make sense that he yoinks Vanitas's heart right before his destruction (or right when it happens), and Terra-Xehanort's soon after.
:"Arriving in the period of his older self's first attempt to reignite the Keyblade War" -- why are you removing that?{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 17:08, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

That's all speculation though. A few moments is fine for all we know, why would he show up at LoD to collect Vanitas when Vanitas wasn't even there etc. Where we don't know fact we should be ambiguous e.g. "during his time travels Young Xehanort collects Vanitas, Terra-Xehanort, Ansem, and Xemnas from unknown points in their history". --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 17:42, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
::Your question about LoD doesn't make sense to me. The point is that he was present at that period of time. He's not bound to a world.
::It's not ''really'' speculation. We're told that it's their hearts "from the past", and there are known periods of time when they even existed. Vanitas has to be from the period of time when he looked like evil Sora, and wasn't yet destroyed, so basically from the start of KHBbS to when he merges with Ventus. Terra-Xehanort has to exist, have the No Name, and not have amnesia, so -- from the battle at KG to the battle at RG. Ansem has to exist and look like he does, so from the battle at RG to the battle at EotW. Xemnas is really the only one with any real mystery to when he was taken -- he existed in his current form anywhere from a year after BbS, during KH1, thru Days, and into KH2 -- as the article already acknowledges. You could ''speculate'' that YX picked up Xemnas at RG when he picked up Ansem, for parsimony's sake, but that's unsupportable.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 18:34, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

Nothing says they have to look like that, they could have just fashioned the replicas to appear that way; Replica appearance can easily change, as shown by Xion. Vanitas could have been from the moment he was born (pre-BBS) or from the moment Ventus connected with Sora (pre-BBS) if he has to look like Sora. Terra-Xehanort could still feasibly be from post-BBS even ignoring the scene of his declaration of being "Ansem": remember Terra-Xehanort appears in 0.2, which is way after BBS, and knows who he is in that game - he could have been picked up from then. Since it's "Ansem's heart" that was collected - which still exists in CoM via Riku - he could have been obtained from CoM. Multiple possibilities means anything put on the article claiming to be certain is speculation, so it should be ambiguous. --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 20:43, 18 June 2019 (UTC)
:"Vanitas could have been from the moment he was born (pre-BBS)" -- BbS covers all of the scenes in BbS, ''including'' the scene where Xehanort brings Ventus to Destiny Islands, and his heart connects with Sora's -- the moment that Vanitas changed from being a black shadowy creature to having Sora's face.
:"they could have just fashioned the replicas to appear that way" -- both CoM, Days, and KH3 all tell us that Replicas don't work like that. They are shaped by memories. Before hearts are implanted, they look like the empty Replica that Sora retrieved from Dark Riku, a featureless husk. Xion's appearance changed ''because'' she was being filled by a heart, not at a whim.
:"which is way after BBS" -- not exactly. The course of the game lasts ten years, but it doesn't start off years after KHBbS. That was also a subconscious communication between their hearts, not the active Terra-Xehanort in the real world. I'll admit that I'm not 100% about that, though. The XER doesn't clear it up.
:"which still exists in CoM via Riku" -- that's a different Ansem. As I read the XER, it looks like it's saying that the Ansem collected was before the Heartless was defeated, which would match with what the reports say about why it needed a Replica in the first place.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 21:50, 18 June 2019 (UTC)

All pages refer to the BBS flashbacks as "Before BBS" (see [[Ventus]] for example). In KHIII, the Replica body of Xion changes due to being overflown with her present counterpart's memories, this could theoretically have occurred with the likes of Vanitas - whose heart was repaired by the Unversed in the present and through encountering his counterparts. The XER connects CoM Ansem to DDD Ansem, so if anything it implies he is Ansem from CoM, there's no implication he's KH Ansem. --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 11:57, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
::Hmm. They shouldn't. That scene isn't presented as a flashback.
::Vanitas has Sora's appearance specifically because his heart was connected to Sora's through Ventus. Him absorbing negativity from the Unversed wouldn't do that.
::So, we've got two things. The XER seems to say that the KH3D Ansem boss fight (implied to be within Riku's heart, and thus the "lurking" Ansem) and the Ansem who shows up as a member of the RO13 are the same Ansem. And yet SR8 in KH3 specifically says "The old man's humanity prevents his Heartless and Nobody, others vanquished in the past, and his younger self from being denizens of this time." If RO13 Ansem was just the Ansem in Riku's heart, there'd be no conflict and this line wouldn't make any sense. (On a side note, it's not explicitly stated, but the "darkness lurking in Riku's heart" is essentially the same issue as the RO13 members having a fragment of Xehanort's heart. SR8 only makes sense if the RO13 Ansem is the Ansem from before the KH1 finale.) So, yeah, I can agree things aren't clear with that guy. Which is a mess, it made a bit more sense beforehand, and I find it kind of hard to believe that Young Xehanort could just approach Riku and get Ansem's heart out of him without Riku noticing.
::Still, Vanitas and Terra-Xehanort I can only see as coming from one time.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 12:47, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Well that's how I've always seen this wiki structured, so that's why I'm applying it here. Don't you think he doesn't necessarily need to be near them (e.g. "collect Vanitas from LoD") so he wouldn't even need to approach Riku right? The journal in III also notes that Terra-Xehanort has Master Xehanort's heart (plus he does not know who Lingering Will is), so he could even feasibly have Master Xehanort's heart from any point in time. Would be good if we could get input from others on this discussion... --[[User:Vanitas|Vanitas]] ([[User talk:Vanitas|talk]]) 15:43, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
::I don't understand why you're saying he would collect Vanitas from LoD.
::"The journal in III also notes that Terra-Xehanort has Master Xehanort's heart" -- Not sure where you're getting that, but the Ultimania explicitly says that he contains TX's heart from the past, implanted in Terra's body.
::"plus he does not know who Lingering Will is" -- honestly, I wasn't able to parse that as "what is your identity", I parsed it as "what kind of person are you". It's simply absurd if Nomura meant that to show that TX doesn't recognize LW -- they're wearing the same damn clothes, for starters, not to mention that Terra's heart would recognize it, he immediately understood who it was upon being born, even Xemnas recognized Aqua's armor, and KH3D showed that YX informed the other Xehanorts about what they missed.
::Plus, LW has literally been ''sitting there'' a few yards away from all the action for a decade, how the hell are you trying to tell me none of the Xehanorts ever noticed or detected him.
::To be fair, that scene is already a legendary mess, what with claiming that TX is the thirteenth when Nomura is already on record saying that TX was one of the twelve that showed up when they were inducting Sora.{{User:KrytenKoro/Sig}} 15:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

== Minor error on the page ==

The Members section is part of the story section. Can someone please change this so "Members" is its own section of the page? Thank You. ([[Special:Contributions/96.68.6.221|96.68.6.221]] 22:23, 1 August 2019 (UTC))

== Technically... ==

Why is the Organization called thirteen different Xehanorts? There's only five different versions of Xehanort in the Organization. The other eight are only vessels for his heart, who still have their original personalities. Did Nomura change his mind about the whole "clone" thing mid-production? ([[Special:Contributions/96.68.6.221|96.68.6.221]] 22:25, 1 August 2019 (UTC))

== Re: Mind ==

How long to wait before adding the information from Re: Mind. This bit clears up the whole "who was at the meeting" thing and the data battles reveal who had a new rank in the Real Organization. ([[Special:Contributions/174.192.74.132|174.192.74.132]] 06:10, 23 January 2020 (UTC))

:Yhea, Nomura said they scrapped the idea of use ranks in the real Org., but Nomura also said they scrapped the idea of a Xehanort game, AND LOOK, we have Dark Road now, and ReMind literally give us ranks. Is pretty obvious they changed idea about the ranks, or why give it in ReMind?[[Special:Contributions/93.41.38.64|93.41.38.64]] 00:17, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

::I think a discussion might need to take place to decide if the information stays or goes since there is a clear amount of time difference between that interview and this games' release. In my opinion I think this information should be mentioned, and if not on the main part of the article, then it should be a small simple trivia piece instead. -[[User:Adv193|Adv193]] ([[User talk:Adv193|talk]]) 00:28, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
:::ReMind never mentions the ranks so how are they revealed? - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 00:35, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
::::They don't, people are just taking the rank based on the order presents on each member's portal in the Data battle. {{User:UnknownChaser/Sig}} 02:03, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
:::::Is not just a order, in each portal there is a specific number, Master Xehanort, Ansem and Xemnas corrispond to the numers mentioned by Nomura in the interview before the idea was scrapped. Xion is the XIII, and she was indeed the last member, Master Xehanort, Ansem, Xemnas, Xigbar, Saix and Young Xehanort have their position that corrispond to their seet position in the thrones room in the end of Dream Drop Distance, or at least, I remember Yound Xehanort be in Larxene seet and Xigbar in Vexen seet in DDD, for Saix, I'm not absolutly sure. But... if really they didn't wanted to give them ranks, why put numbers in the portals?--[[Special:Contributions/93.41.38.64|93.41.38.64]] 08:11, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
::::::Hmmm... hadn’t notice that the portals are numbered. Also just noticed that they follow that order in data greeting as well. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 08:26, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
:::::::I hadn't noticed the numbers on the portals either. But still that doesn't mean anything. Especially since we have an interview with Nomura explicitly stating they don't have ranks. Yes, he could have changes his mind, but we really need more concrete evidence, like an interview or maybe that new Character Files book, before we can come to that conclusion. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 17:52, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
::::::::If they didn't change mind, why add the numbers? We literally have the game that show us the ranks, what confirmation you need more? Is like you need Nomura say "hey, Sora's eyes are blue" when you can literally see it. In-game the ranks are literally showed, we can see it, if they add that numbers, that reflect both Nomura initial idea of ranks and the Dream Drop Distance's seets of the Organization, is pretty obvius they changed mind. Nomura will NEVER confirm something that is literally showed in the game. Again, is like waiting Nomura saying Sora's eyes are blue when you can see it.--[[Special:Contributions/93.41.38.64|93.41.38.64]] 18:36, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::The Dream Drop Distance's seats doesn't align with the numbers shown on the portals. Ansem sits in Xaldin's seat and Saïx sits in his original seat but should be sitting in Axel's old one as Saïx is now number VIII (according to the portals) and not VII. Point is: the argument that the seats from KH3D prove their ranks isn't correct. - [[User:JTD95|JTD95]] ([[User talk:JTD95|talk]]) 21:43, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

:::::::::::[https://twitter.com/tuskactone/status/1230496918515511296?s=20] The new Character Files book lists the members of the old and new Organization side by side. The old organization are listed with their ranks, the new Organization isn't. It's also not in the order of the portals. {{User:TheSilentHero/Sig}} 19:51, 20 February 2020 (UTC)
:::::::::::Even if they don't count as ranks, shouldn't the portal numbers have a column on the table anyway, even just as a footnote? --[[User:Wikipirate|Wikipirate]] ([[User talk:Wikipirate|talk]]) 02:03, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

== Melody of Memory ==

So Kairi refers to the real Organization XIII as the True Organization XIII (with a captial T) in one of the game's cutscenes. Should this be included to the page somehow? - {{User:JTD95/Signature}} 12:12, 17 November 2020 (UTC)
:I finally got around with watching the cutscenes for MoM today, and man, I hate how the subtitles team are so in consistent with terminology (like how the the "T" in The Final World is now lowercased instead of capitalized like it was in KHIII). I suppose we should, considering that's what was also used.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 03:24, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
::I think it should stay as "Real", since that's the term used (repeatedly) in the games where they actually have plot relevance and impact. A one-off mention-only translation change doesn't warrant a move imo. ''[[User:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#002395 ;">Ultima Spark</span>]]'' '''[[User talk:Ultima Spark|<span style="color:#007FFF ;">(talk)</span>]]''' [[File:Lofty Fantasy KH3D.png|17px]] 11:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
:::I definitely agree with keeping it as "Real", though the "True Organization XIII" should just be mentioned in the intro paragraph.--{{User:NinjaSheik/Sig}} 04:16, 25 November 2020 (UTC)